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[–]Singapope 12 points13 points  (8 children)

Remember always: you chose this.

I never chose this. We are, all of us, slaves sold to life; the extent of our choices is an illusion. If I could live off of nothing I'd be Gautama Buddha, I'd travel freely across the world and live happily for the sake of living. But I do not dictate what makes me happy. My environment, my upbringing, and ultimately my genetic composition do. I have no choice but to pursue that, and if I fail only death or lifelong pain remain as options. This is what I believe.

[–][deleted]  (7 children)

[deleted]

    [–]Singapope 4 points5 points  (5 children)

    I think it's helpful for a lot of things, but not in the context of this discussion. The main argument in the OP is basically a reworking of "be content with what you have", but the fact is that we are not really free to decide what we are content with.

    [–][deleted]  (4 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]Singapope 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      I had never heard of compatibilism and it sounds interesting, but I don't think it solves the problem in a convincing way (assuming the summary you've given is a good representation of it). Logical understanding of our own actions might very well change their course, but that only moves the goalpost a bit since that same logical understanding is part of our deterministic self, unless you want to postulate that Reason is an absolute and objective entity that exists separately from our brains.

      With that said, I feel out of my element having a discussion like this. I'm not a philosopher. The only aspect of free will that ever concerned me is the possibility of provoking my own happiness, in a buddhist kind of way, by just deciding that I don't need or want anything more than what I have. But so far, I remain very unconvinced by the idea. The wiki page about compatibilism contains a quote that I very much agree with: "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills."

      [–]Gray_Sloth 3 points4 points  (1 child)

      If I told you to believe in Zeus, could you? Could you truly make yourself believe in him? If I asked you to fall in love with a person you did not love, could you make that happen? If I asked you to enjoy food you did not like the taste of, could you? Sure we can act as though are wills are free, we can pretend to believe in Zeus, fake loving those we don't love, and eat food we don't like, but we can't change how we actually feel about it.

      I wish I loved water, I wish drinking water was as pleasurable as heroin, since I have so much of it and have to drink it anyway, but I don't feel that way about water, drinking it does not bring me that level of pleasure and I can't choose it to no matter how much I want. The only choice we have is to act in a way we think will get us what we want, or don't. Really it's not much of a choice at all, for example, a gay man wants to be with another man, that's not his choice, but it is his choice to act on that desire, right? Maybe his society does not approve of that behavior so he chooses to be with a woman instead out of fear, but that's not really a choice, his fear of societies judgment is greater than his desire to act on his sexuality, cause and effect, not choice. You only choose things based on your circumstances, maybe the only really real choice would be to do something for literally no reason, not because you want to, not because of any benift at all, but is that even possible? A causeless cause? How could it be, you are a cellular organism acting on impulses, deep down something is making you do what you are doing, but would a causeless cause even be a choice in the first place, would it be free will? Even if hypothetically free will was real, really we are basically people blindfolded, handed a bat, and told every swing is free, it's our decision, maybe we do happen to hit the pinata, or just smash a valuable vase, was any of that really free, is blind free will, ignorant of the ultimate results, really that valuable anyway?

      This article makes us think about our situation and recognize our privilege, and while in the grand scheme of things we have a lot of different opportunities, desires, and compromises we make in our life, ultimately our lives are just shots in the dark hoping that we get the best result and "choice" is just an abstract notion we use to make sense of our ignorance to the underlying forces that drive our biology and universe.

      [–]autowikibot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Causeless cause:


      Causeless Cause (or Uncaused Cause, All-Cause) in Theosophy, is 'An Omnipresent, Eternal, Boundless, and Immutable Principle...' also described as 'infinity' to (impersonal) 'intelligence' & (divine) 'spirit' & 'consciousness' (but also non-consciousness or at least unconsciousness) & 'essence' to 'the one life.' [non-primary source needed]

      Causeless cause is synonymous with 'the absolute,' which 'Protologos' is often confused with, but it is not: 'first' (Gk. 'proto') denotes finite bound, but causeless cause is unbounded. Hindus and Theosophists call it Para Brahman (Parabrahm.) Formless Parabrahm is said to periodically emanate Logoi, which are hence not causeless, but are non-eternal except in cycles of emanation, existence, pralaya (dissolution.) In each cycle, causeless cause causes the Logoic Monad to move into action, which develops into the Logoic Triad/triple manifestation, and the heptad (i.e. seven; prajapatis (Devas) or Elohim,) which continue the cosmic chain of cause and effect. It has been shown the causeless cause is so described in some religious cosmogenesis accounts. [citation needed]

      The ideas of causeless and Logoic causes are said to enable various logic. Their ideas are used in unification of metaphysics/theology—it is said such ideas are easier to understand with all symbology (seven keys) i.e. specific 'sacred sciences' fully used mainly in the East. [citation needed]


      Interesting: Triple manifestation | Anupadaka | Unmoved mover | Theosophical Society Point Loma-Covina

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      [–]I_neva_said_that 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      I don't think it's helpful but the illusion seems to be unavoidable for most.

      [–]Gray_Sloth 9 points10 points  (2 children)

      Well it started out interesting but it lost me a bit at the suggestion to eat dog food :p

      I think the "choice" between a soul crushing 9-5 job for the unfulfilling privileges it provides and complete homelessness is not much of a choice at all IMHO, death seems far more appealing than either to me. Though I do like the initial message that we don't need anything, I just wish it would have taken if further. You don't need that dog food, just go without, all that will happen is a brief starvation and death and then your corpse will dissolve back into the earth, nothing wrong or incorrect has occurred, and this is a valid choice you choose against with every bite of kibble you take.

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

        [–]Gray_Sloth 9 points10 points  (0 children)

        Fair enough I guess, but just not for me, no thank you.

        Though:

        For most people there exist jobs they can enjoy.

        Dubious claim, and it maybe hypothetically true in some ideal universe, the actual facts are only about 30% of Americans report to actually enjoy their jobs.

        [–]I_neva_said_that 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        I agree with all of these rules for living. I just can't get into the game. All of this would be great if I could muster up the energy to care.

        Edited to add: This is the type of life I'd live if I were a different person with a different genetic make-up.

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