Can we please stop ignoring the 900 pound pink elephant in the room ?

I want to talk about something that concerns all of us. We've all heard about it, we all have an opinion on it, and some of us even use it. I'm talking about

Tumbling

What is it? Who needs it? Why?

I've been on the hunt for answers and have obtained very few facts. I mod this sub and the noobs sub and need facts in order to properly answer questions about theses services. The advocators of tumbling accuse me of just looking for a fight. This is true, I am indeed fighting for answers with the very people who accuse me of fighting.

There are many users that I can say with 100% certainty do not need to tumble. This would include:

In this post https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarketsNoobs/comments/5muyvd/bitcoined_ypu_mined_yourself/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=user&utm_source=reddit, a guy asked if his coins needed to be tumbled even though he mined them himself 5 years ago. Some user tells him yes. But when asked why, he had no idea. "peace of mind" was his only reason. He even argued with me and afterwards deleted his account. If a mechanic tells you he can fix your car, he should at least be able to tell you what's wrong with it.

Here is another example of a person with anonymous coins not knowing why he should tumble. https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarketsNoobs/comments/5na3mt/safety_first/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=user&utm_source=reddit. His reason was because "somebody told him". Every social engineer knows that **if you tell a lie long enough, it becomes the truth. I believe this is exactly what has happened in this community.**

Here is a post that had a very tricky title. https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5n1hpu/tips_for_maximizing_safety/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=user&utm_source=reddit. It seemed to be about security and OpSec tips, but quickly turned into an advertisement for GramsHelix with a quick edit and a few comments from the OP.

Someone made a post the other day and summoned me to it wishing to discuss this very topic. I joined in and summoned The moderatores and Operators of GramsHelix to the discussion. I watched as that post was hit with a shilly barage of downvotes. I think it had something to do with my initial comment. https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5n2llv/on_the_usefulness_of_tumbling/ I didn't get a response from the main advocates of tumbling until a little while ago, when the post was all but forgotton and hardly seen.

I have my reasons not to ever trust a service like gramshelix.

The biggest argument I hear is "taint analyis". Good point too. But telling people they need to tumble because coins can be traced back to them is absolute **F.U.D! There has never been a shred of evidence that BTC have ever been tracked back to any Marketeer. Not one single arrest has been made due to BTC being traced back to an illegal transaction ever. Telling people that the "FuturePolice" might catch them, so they better tumble their .3btc is total bullshit! There is no facts what so ever in all those possibilities or theories.**

So with the information I have available, I have a list of people who should use tumblers:

This is how sevices like tumblers convince an entire community that tumbling is necessary: https://i.sli.mg/1AxNsf.jpg Please look at that link closely and then come back to this post and see if you notice any of these tactics used by some of the users in the comments.


Comments


[80 Points] murderhomelesspeople:

I would like to say the main reason I tumble is for privacy. I don't like the idea of my coins being followed through a public block chain. By eliminating the trail I eliminate unnecessary evidence floating around.

Anyone who is only worried about an exchange user account being closed (An intermediary wallet like the one on tails will prevent this. There is no way of knowing who owns a wallet like that. There are post here where people had their accounts banned because they sent it to a tumbler. The solution from the advocates, "use an intermediary wallet!")

You really need to start getting your facts straight. Your claim of intermediary wallets is completely unverified and is a terrible recommendation, the worst I've ever seen a mod give. The amount of posts for people being banned by sending to a tumbler is minuscule and becomes irrelevant when compared to the the amount of people who've been banned from sending it directly to DNMs and intermediaries. Sending it from a exchange tied to your name means you absolutely need to clean your coins some how.

In this post https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarketsNoobs/comments/5muyvd/bitcoined_ypu_mined_yourself/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=user&utm_source=reddit, a guy asked if his coins needed to be tumbled even though he mined them himself 5 years ago. Some user tells him yes. But when asked why, he had no idea. "peace of mind" was his only reason. He even argued with me and afterwards deleted his account. If a mechanic tells you he can fix your car, he should at least be able to tell you what's wrong with it.

Here is another example of a person with anonymous coins not knowing why he should tumble. https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarketsNoobs/comments/5na3mt/safety_first/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=user&utm_source=reddit. His reason was because "somebody told him". Every social engineer knows that if you tell a lie long enough, it becomes the truth. I believe this is exactly what has happened in this community.

You picked some random idiots in the noobs sub to make a point? What in the lords name does this prove about anything.

Here is a post that had a very tricky title. https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5n1hpu/tips_for_maximizing_safety/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=user&utm_source=reddit. It seemed to be about security and OpSec tips, but quickly turned into an advertisement for GramsHelix with a quick edit and a few comments from the OP.

Really stretching. That guy is retarded look at his post history.

Someone made a post the other day and summoned me to it wishing to discuss this very topic. I joined in and summoned The moderatores and Operators of GramsHelix to the discussion. I watched as that post was hit with a shilly barage of down votes. I think it had something to do with my initial comment. https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5n2llv/on_the_usefulness_of_tumbling/ I didn't get a response from the main advocates of tumbling until a little while ago, when the post was all but forgotten and hardly seen.

You got down votes because you made wild and ridiculous claims about grams. While at the same time grouping it into the same place as a known scam subreddit which highlighted your lack of knowledge on the subject. A subject you claimed to be looking into by comparing the admins but failed to realize that the usernames were different making your claims ridiculous. No shills required to down vote this.

Money laundering is a high priority to many three letter groups (even more sought after than drug dealing)

Yeah and so is tor and all our encryption stuff. Same stuff is used by terrorists, pedophiles, weapons/human traffickers and government spies. All this stuff is top priority for every government intelligence agency across the world.

They are a completely unknown third party. (A cardinal rule of privacy advocates everywhere is never to trust unknown third parties. Calling a sevice like that "trusted" is shilly propaganda)

u/pinochetHA had a great response to this

The stuff you are claiming here is logical but still defective. Use Tor? You are probably trusting an unknown guard node, which if compromised is very bad news. Use Alphabay/Dream/etc.? You are trusting an unknown endpoint. Any of these things could be compromised at any time. Using a computer? You are trusting the manufacturer was kind and didn't add mean firmware, and also that they were competent and didn't allow compromise by staff or other malicious entities. Using Tails? You are trusting that your usb key is safe from bad usb and the machines firmware is OK and you are also probably trusting the software. At some point most of us are trusting something and it is very unlikely that we will ever be able to prove that these things are not compromised or weak to takeover. Proof would be really nice but we do not always get nice things.

We all have to trust somebody, some more than others. Some have to trust different people due to circumstance.

They could be police. (SilkRoad2 is an example of how this is a possibility. Anyone remember this article? http://www.ibtimes.com/interpol-built-its-own-dark-net-drug-marketplace-cops-posing-dealers-2089299. This all went down around the same time as the Oasis debacle. Those swing-set-sniffers from playpen know what I'm talking about. Cops will allow crimes like drug trafficking and the trade of sick kiddie shit to collect data. Fast and furious allowed guns that killed LE. Why wouldn't they do the same for money laundering? Gotta connect the dots somehow. Investigations can last years. LE crave and survive on information.)

You say this a lot but I've never actually seen you post proof. Even that link doesn't have anything to do with SR2. Remember what you said earlier.

if you tell a lie long enough, it becomes the truth

So let's see some actual proof. No reason to believe the site was ran by LE. Yeah they'll temporarily run an already active an existing site to gather data and strike. Starting a new one from scratch is a different ball game. That link you posted was just a test. Have they advanced further? Who knows but it would take some massive justification and resources to start large tumbling service or a DNM which would enable kids to buy fent, heroin, meth, oxy, guns, cocaine, ketamine, molly and they might just get sent bunk shit and die even if they're careful, who could justify that?

edit: I realized I didn't finish this post so I completed it now, I'm on a hit of speed and I feel alive.

They operate a money laundering service on reddit. (A clear net site /r/grams)

Are you being serious right now. Bitcoin isn't money no crypto-currency is and they never will be. They are a digital asset more akin to gold and oil, crypto is a lot easier to understand when you think about it as shares instead of coins. Tumbling is like putting all our gold bars in a box and switching them up to get new ones, no taxes evaded. You misewell stop using alphabay because they operate on here as well and post frequently.

Their "service" breeds scam sites, phishing links and dedicated mock scamming subs (/r/GramsHelix is filled with phishing links and even has an active team. How convenient.)

You're gunna have to stop using all markets immediately. I'm terribly sorry.

The owner and operator of grams helix told me himself: "Yes there are ways to tumble your bitcoins for free or almost free." in this post https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5n2llv/on_the_usefulness_of_tumbling/dcag1cc/?context=3&utm_content=context&utm_medium=message&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=frontpage(If anyone is serious about privacy, they won't trust a completely unknown to not analyze their coins through a false sense of security. They will look for a way to do it themselves.)

Yes he told you this out in the open for all to see. Because it's the truth and there are other ways to do it. I can't tell if you post is an attack on tumbling or on grams specifically.

There has never been a shred of evidence that BTC have ever been tracked back to any Marketeer. Not one single arrest has been made due to BTC being traced back to an illegal transaction ever.

Do you wanna be the first? There's definitely instances that exist when it would be beneficial. The fact that nobody gets arrested for it is a terrible reason that sends a terrible message and would lead to a weakening in opsec standards.

People who are afraid of being tracked back to their illegal transaction (even though money laundering increases the laws broken and there has never been proof that this is even possible)

Tumbling is not is not illegal

edit:that double is not on purpose but I think I'll leave it edit:wording, some grammar

SWEET SWEET GOLD FINALLY


[26 Points] flashbangs_hard:

I have been saying forever that normal buyers do not need to tumble and that an intermediate wallet works well enough.

Tumbling is probably the most split issue on this sub, and it'll stay that way unless some major event happens.


[28 Points] gramsadmin:

I will post my original and message again because I bet many people didn't click you link to read it.

Preface

I own Helix and Helix light bitcoin cleaner(tumbler)
If you buy or sell your bitcoins anonymously such as as on a anonymous localbitcoin account or with someone in person, There is no reason you would need to tumble because the bitcoins are never linked to you.

Taint analysis

Bitcoin tumbling breaks the bitcoin taint analysis. What is Taint analysis? It the record of which wallets have sent bitcoins to and from each other. So if a user send coins from wallet A to wallet B to wallet C to wallet D. Then you look at the taint analysis of wallet D, it will show that Wallet D is linked to Wallet A by some percent. The higher the percent the more closely the wallets are link and the more likely the owner of wallet A sent or received coins from wallet D. If wallet A happens to be a coinbase account link to a real identity and wallet D is a darknet market wallet, a tumbler in between those will make it so that wallet A doesn't even show up in the taint analysis of wallet D. This means there is no way they are linked.

How do you check the taint?

In this example a user buys bitcoins on coinbase send to a tumbler and tells the tumbler to send to a market address
Coinbase(wallet A) -> Tumbler (wallet B) -> Market (wallet C)

You can also get to the taint page with this blockchain.info/taint/{the bitcoins address to check}

Do you have to tumble your coins?

Short answer is YES
I run a tumbler so I am a little biased, but It depends on how much you are sending to or from a market and how much you care about opsec. Here are a few reasons why you should tumble

It is better to be safe than sorry no matter which tumbler or tumbling method you use.
Again I am biased because I own a tumbler

How can they tell which wallets are linked to markets?

Most markets use "Hot Wallets", they put all their fees in these wallets. LE just needs to check the taints on these wallets to find all the addresses a market uses. There is even a site that does it already walletexplorer dot com If you go there you can see all the market addresses they are tracking.

Can't they just find the tumblers the same way?

Yes most tumblers they can. Helix is different and doesn't use a hot wallet. In fact helix never uses a wallet more than once. So even if they did tag a helix wallet it would never be used again so it wouldn't matter. You can check walletexplorer dot com and see helix and grams is not being tracked.

Can't tumblers be found by looking for multiple transactions every minute?

This is an old method of tumbling which most tumblers don't use anymore. I can't speak for all of them but Helix has 2 pools of bitcoins, Dirt and Clean. Users send their bitcoins to the dirty pool and receive bitcoins from the clean pool so there is very few transactions. Coins are never sent from the dirty pool to the clean pool so the clean bitcoins have no link or 0% taint to the dirty ones.

Is there free methods of tumbling?

Yes there are ways to tumble your bitcoins for free or almost free. One method is creating anonymous account on crypto exchanges and buying another crypto currency(litecoin) and then selling the litecoins for new clean bitcoins. Doing it this way you will save the 2.5% but use a lot more of your time and might lose money if the price fluctuates during the process.

Using a tumbler to tumble your coins is like paying a mechanic to change your oil. You can change your oil yourself and save some money but you will have to get dirty and it will take a lot of your time. If you use a mechanic you pay more than doing it yourself, but you know it gets done right and quickly without you having to spend any of your time. You could not change your oil at all (like not tumbling) and might be fine but who wants to risk that.


[28 Points] SaintVengeance:

Why the fuck is Seraphim_X a mod? Spreading disinformation and relaxing OPSEC is the direct OPPOSITE of what a mod of this subreddit should be doing. Disgraceful.


[16 Points] gramsadmin:

I would also like to know why you care so much. This is the 3rd post you have made in a week about getting people to stop tumbling. If you think it is stupid then don't do it. It is strange you care so much about what everyone else is doing.


[17 Points] None:

Please stop calling DNM users "marketeers" ffs.


[10 Points] commonsense4dummies:

are you LE? is this sub compromised? this post is ridiculous.

it's no secret that bitcoin - tumbled or not - is technologically compromised with regard to anonymity and it's only a matter until tools end-up in mainstream law enforcement


[8 Points] bigbawlzxm:

I feel like it's pretty clear why people tumble. They want to break the link between coins they want to use to buy drugs and their identity/Bitcoin exchange account.
Like I said to you before Bitcoin is PSEUDONYMOUS. All the transactions are public, but who is involved in the transactions isn't known. Unless your identity is tied to how you originally acquired the Bitcoin.
There are a host of reasons you wouldn't want your identity tied to a transaction. Gambling, porn, buying weird shit, prostitutes, etc. This intersection of legal and illegal things that people don't want their identity tied to is what allows tumbling to be successful.

/u/GramsAdmin has pretty much been around this sub from the beginning. I understand you questioning tumbling but you seem to be fairly specific in the tumbling site you're calling out/ referring to.
And on top of that, I do think it's a little odd for a mod to post something with this tone.


[10 Points] Postal2Dude:

Or just use Monero. No headaches.


[5 Points] MRLOUD2017:

This needs more up votes too much scaremongering on reddit.OP is 100PERCENT RIGHT Tumbling is not really needed at imo unless you are a vendor really I cant see its usefulness other then this third party companies fleecing you. Just buy your coins send to a wallet then market. Cheapest Tumbling service ever.


[7 Points] deluser:

And with this single post we now know that /u/Seraphim_X is /u/MDMAngel. Same writing style, same theories, even shared the same screenshot that's been floating around forums for the last two years that they think is some super secret info. She was gunning for a mod spot for a long time and now she got one.The name is similiar enough, surprised it didn't dawn on me before this.

Congrats I guess, this is kind of a shit post though.

edit: tagged usernames


[8 Points] mejuwi1:

This, is the shittiest piece of advice i have ever had the misfortune of reading. mod, you have outdone yourself, even mdmangel would be proud at your lack of basic sense wrt. privacy

just do the community a huge favor and just step down before your shit advice gets some noobs busted

what a fuckin' tart


[5 Points] throwahooawayyfoe:

BTC atm users and LibertX users who pay with cash (these coins are not tied to the users identity)

You state this as if it's a fact all the way around. There are many, many btc atms in the US that scan gov't ID's, and some go even further than that with biometric identification.


[6 Points] thrownsaways:

Ive wondered that since you can't prove that your coins were tumbled, that most of these companies are set up as money in, take a small %, then money out. It's not like you as the consumer can see any difference after your coins were "tumbled".


[6 Points] SirFoxx:

It was my understanding that by using BTC to buy Monero and then either buy BTC or just cash out the Monero(I may be wrong on this as I'm not experienced at all in this) is much better security and provides better anonymity than tumbling BTC does. I'm I wrong on this?


[7 Points] trynakick:

I actually agree with you about tumbling, but tone matters. You're winning no friends in the comment section.


[5 Points] gramsadmin:

I also want to say I agree with you on a lot of your points. No, a user doesn't have to tumble... but should a user really be trying to save 2.5% when it comes to their security and livelihood. There are cheaper tumblers out there too. I think mine is the best but that is manly because we have been around the longest. Feel free to try one of our competitors.


[4 Points] 6ALLAS:

If it only requires patience to improve security.. Do it. Otherwise you're an idiot and will get caught way before the smarter ones that can wait.


[4 Points] keesieboy:

Seriously, why all this hassle when you can just use Monero? I don't get it!


[4 Points] caliking321:

i agree. i think at least 1 tumbling site is LE or eventually will be. especially the ones that allow u to create accounts to use forever that i wont name. the ones that only allow .5 btc at a time dont seem to be a risky because LE isnt interested in someone spending 400 or so dollars on markets and spending hours of resources tracking those btc doesnt seem to be worth it. you have been pushing this anti tumbling agenda since ive noticed your name plus the fact your a new mod i find odd. i understand the warnings but it seems u dont want people using tumbling at all. from what i understand if u have a untraced wallet to send new coins too even if LE sees the btc .the trail ends their for example if u send coins from your tumbling site to your tails wallet.

this sub has been missing a voice. someone who tries to warn the community and bring issues up not only when its relevant but for the love of the community. we might need someone like you


[4 Points] hypnagoggle:

I think I agree with most everything here, minus what some could see as a direct personal attack against a couple redditors.

Grams offers a service that is constrained by the platform and the rules of engagement of the dark web. It's up to users to decide whether that service is trustworthy and/or worth using. I've never seen evidence that they are a problem in our community.

That being said, preaching tumbling as gospel is probably not needed either. Some people hold onto it like a security blanket. Ideally, folks would understand what they're doing and why they're doing it.

On the topic of getting an exchange account closed, which is annoying though not life-threatening: I have heard stories of people still getting their account closed even with an intermediate wallet. Then people start talking about adding more intermediate wallets, suggesting some magical threshold at which you'll rise above the algorithm and be considered an acceptable exchange customer.

Eh...seems like it'd be easier to just shift the shape of those coins rather than go to that mess'o'trouble.

Anyway, I did use grams once. I thought it was a pretty cool process, at least, but I agree it comes with its own issues and may very well be overkill for most people.


[3 Points] Throughawayup:

I'd also like to add that anyone can give you a wallet address to pay for a good/service/scam. Just because you send your coins to a market wallet does not mean you own the wallet you sent coins to. The more wallets between you and the market wallet the more plausible deniability you have. If you wanna tumble yourself then set up a few different wallets and do it that way.


[5 Points] MRLOUD2017:

"If you get a controlled delivery and you deny ordering the package the bitcoin taint will be the evidence they need to prove you ordered it"

😂😂😂😂😂 unless it's the FBI OR DEA.NO LOCAL LAW ENFORCMENT HAS EITHER THE TIME NOR MONEY TO FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL LIKE THAT UNLESS YOU ARE FUCKING EL CHAPO OR SOMETHING I doubt they gonna go that far to check the fucking taint. When you write this shit are you sat in a room with a cat on your lap laughing like a bond villain at all the clown who eat up this shit.


[3 Points] None:

A 900 lb elephant would be kind of small..


[3 Points] fu_onion:

never been proof that this is even possible

tl;dr Sure - not yet, but I still tumble my coinbase coins because the cost of my IRL identity being exposed is very high and, well, mathematicians.

Tracing my transactions on the block chain is a directed graph problem and smart people are scratching their chins. As methods improve, I feel more comfortable at least making it harder for the nerds to figure out how to get from my coinbase ID to a DNM hot wallet and beyond. The 2.5% is unreliable insurance for an event that hasn't happened but that's my preference. It's not paranoia because there are people paid to try to get me.


[3 Points] pinochetHA:

I have a few opinions about this:

  1. Most of the claims made in the post don't stand up. Others have pointed this out already.

  2. People saying u/Seraphim_X should have his moderator status removed are wrong. We want our mods to be able to express opinions and start discussion. Demodding someone because they expressed unpopular or even incorrect opinions which they firmly believe in sets up a really bad incentive model.

  3. More focus on alternatives to bitcoin mixers is long overdue. There are many complications with using altcoins to avoid tainted bitcoin but we should make sure we have guidance on doing it correctly. When done correctly it provides greater security guarantees than mixing.

This is how sevices like tumblers convince an entire community that tumbling is necessary: https://i.sli.mg/1AxNsf.jpg

That guide is utter bullshit. It was a fake leak from one of the three letter agencies. Mdmangel was the last person to endorse it.


[2 Points] drimilr:

shucks, i thought this was going to be about stds and unprotected sex.


[7 Points] MyManOnReddit:

I'm sorry, I don't speak meth.


[2 Points] mjmedstarved:

People in here talking shit need to pick up a book, or simply READ THE ENTIRE POST before opening your dumb mouth.

Thanks for taking the time to educate folks, OP.


[2 Points] Phreshgreen:

I practice going over the step by step guide in the darknetmarketnoobs subreddit and I've noticed that the guide refers the user to a "Helix Light" tumbler. would this be the same in reference to your post?

https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarketsNoobs/wiki/step-by-step


[2 Points] I5uEQKrv4u5KR3fb7yyC:

interesting post, good to see some discussions about this


[2 Points] Stellar_Surfer:

Thank you, thank you!

I thought I was the only one!


[2 Points] CuntMaster16:

I have worries about the topic of BTC being untraceable by L.E. as there was a whole cable TV show about how the Silk Road got taken down and the main way they tracked him is through bitcoin. How committed do the police have to be to a case in order for them to take the time to get and analyze bitcoin transaction?


[2 Points] MrGangGreen:

more often than not i think the guys on here are too embarrassed to ask questions about why something is negative because of fear of being called a dumb noob so everyone sort of goes along with their fingers in their ears pretending to be opsec rain men, calling out anyone who simply asks "why"?


[2 Points] btcreadit:

i dont have time to go through the entire post, but if this is a post to advertise against tumbling please dont listen to this folks, this is really poor advice.

he's mixing truth with misinformation and its creating a situation that will ultimately hurt people.

Yes, there are most likely 3rd party operators who are LE and yes they are doing this to follow the coins. Or they are security contractors hired by LE to do coin analysis.

but that does not mean that your coins are any less safe. especially if your coins previously did not have a association to a exchange account attached to your id.

Anyone who is only worried about an exchange user account being closed (An intermediary wallet like the one on tails will prevent this. There is no way of knowing who owns a wallet like that. There are post here where people had their accounts banned because they sent it to a tumbler. The solution from the advocates, "use an intermediary wallet!")

he's half right here. we have a major US exchange operator (I think coinbase?) on the record on /r/bitcoin stating that exchanges are required to do coin analysis around 4 layers deep if my memory serves me right. this means that companies exchanges hire will look at 4 sub nested transactions from their exchange withdrawal to see if those coins hit a darknet site or tumbler.

the solution is simple, send the coin's to btc-e using a anonymous account with a anonymous email created through tor. btc-e is the best and safest tumbler you could ever have. since they are a legit exchange, i doubt any regulated exchange will ban a user for sending coin's there. any coins sent to btc-e will be 100% severed from the coin's withdrawn. they have a full tumbler in their exchange. as a secondary option blockchain.info's shared send with maximum privacy or joinmarket before you go to a tumbler. these will add the additional layers needed to obscure the transaction in enough layers deep that traditional coin analysis wont see where it goes. this does not mean that someone who is persistent cannot see where your coins go. if LE is analyzing your coin trail they are going to find the end.

mixing services are bad because they increase risk of theft,but they do a great job of severing taint 100%. you can eliminate that risk by using btc-e.com

the main reason you would need to tumble your coins is if you are purchasing them off a regulated exchange that your identity is attached to. if you are purchasing them off localbitcoins then know that the coins that come off localbitcoin are not tainted with your deposit address. they too have full mixing algorithm's internally that severs taint between deposit and withdrawn coins.

anyone who purchases bitcoin's on a regulated exchange should always withdrawal directly to btc-e before the coin's go anywhere else. You need your account to be created for 72 hours before you can withdrawal though, so make it ahead of time. if you are really paranoid, send to blockchain.info, do a maximum privacy shared send to your btc-e account and then to darknet or whatever stupid shit you are gonna do.

i cannot think of any reason to use a tumbler otherwise, unless you know the coins you are buying are directly connected to an another user, and you want privacy from whatever that user did. which is a rational view. so tumbling should be used for everyone who wishes to disconnect themselves from the previous owners history. if that previous owner is sending the coins from localbitcoins, it doesn't matter. if they are sending from btc-e, it doesn't matter. if they are sending from a personal wallet, it does matter. you dont know them or their history, you dont know where they got their coins. so be safe not sorry.


[2 Points] nugymmer:

This is why we have Monero AKA Bitcoin version 2.0


[2 Points] SVDarmstadt98:

There has never been a shred of evidence that BTC have ever been tracked back to any Marketeer. Not one single arrest has been made due to BTC being traced back to an illegal transaction ever. Telling people that the "FuturePolice" might catch them, so they better tumble their .3btc is total bullshit! There is no facts what so ever in all those possibilities or theories.**

This is not strong evidence. If LE found a way to identify vendors through blockchain analysis you can bet they wouldn't talk about it in indictments/court documents. Parallel construction and all that.


[2 Points] exmachinalibertas:

God damn, everybody needs to calm the fuck down here. OP, just because somebody runs a tumbler doesn't automatically make them a scammer. grams has been around for a while, and there have been very very few complaints about him. All evidence points to it being a legit service. I wouldn't put tons of coins through it all at once -- but I also wouldn't keep tons of money on an exchange or market. Anybody can always go under at any time.

But grams offers a service. You are free to use or not use it. There's no need to make it any more or less than that.

Everybody else, OP makes good points. It's probably not always necessary for you to tumble all the time. It's good to understand WHY you do each part of your opsec and think about HOW it secures you. By understanding that, you can make better determinations about when it is and is not necessary to implement certain security procedures. You all may disagree with OP's risk assessment and want to err on the side of "better safe than sorry", and that's fine. But that doesn't make OP's advice bad or imply that he's advocating bad opsec. He's just telling you to think about your opsec so you can make better decisions. Save yourself some time and money in the few occasions when tumbling isn't really necessary.

There's no need for everybody to be all up in arms here. Let's all just calm down. We're all in this together. We're all good here.


[1 Points] None:

How highkey is buying coins on atm hat only checks your phone number and then to electrums on tails then DNM.


[0 Points] None:

I agree 100% tumbling is complete retardation


[1 Points] MySpeed:

well i didnt knew this. Thanks for clearing this mess a little bit up (if its right what you are saying). I actually thought about tumbling my coins but never did it and now i am glad that i never did.


[1 Points] CannaDickThrowAway:

So you are talking about buyers, how about a low/medium level pot vendor selling BTC? Would they need to tumble before using a BTC ATM or selling through LBC?


[1 Points] ciphersexual:

How many vendors still cash out via exchanges?


[1 Points] ImaNarwhal:

I think that 900lb is a lot less than an elephant should weigh


[1 Points] None:

[deleted]


[1 Points] DerkNatMerkats:

900lbs is small for an elephant


[1 Points] None:

post this in /r/bitcointumbling


[1 Points] DeCoder68W:

Thanks man. I'm with you, after looking into it myself from your responses in my other thread.


[1 Points] Dont_Order_A_Slayer:

Damn. How do I say this? Heh.

I don't conduct business online, so the information presented isn't exactly useful to me in that context. However, this is a hell of a post because it's good information, and comes from the right "places"/motivations in every regard. In that context? It's important information to know. Damn glad I caught it.

So, Thanks OP. Thanks for the heads up on things. The information, and your time taken to think, put it together and share with people is appreciated on my end.

I'll keep quiet, and let the experienced/informed people do the talking.


[1 Points] MollieIsYourFriend:

Bro, you could probably tumble a 800 pound elephant..is that it? is that the point you are trying to make here?


[0 Points] None:

[deleted]


[-2 Points] bobbiggs69:

900 pound pink elephant? That's the name I gave my cock.