Silk Road forums

Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: bobbykorn on February 07, 2012, 05:08 pm

Title: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: bobbykorn on February 07, 2012, 05:08 pm
Hey I was wondering what I can do to reduce the neurotoxicity of MDMA. Can anyone give me a few tips or direct me to a link on this topic?
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: 328502E on February 07, 2012, 07:48 pm
Short answer: take ~5mg selegiline (aka deprenyl) before rolling, and take 5htp afterwards. 

There's a couple good guides out there as to why mdma is neurotoxic - dancesafe in particular has a nice one for those with no knowledge of neurochemistry.
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: bionic1 on February 08, 2012, 11:17 am
as far as I know the neurotoxicity of moderate MDMA doses is still controversial. MDMA itself isn't neurotoxic but some of its metabolites are. And there are different metabolizing routes which makes it a bit complicated.

Studies with rats, to which up to 40mg/kg MDMA was given i.v. daily for 14 days, didn't show any neurotoxicity (normal dose is 1.5mg/kg). I can look up what study that was, if somebody is interested. Other studies showed evidence for neurotoxicity, like serotonine depletion syndrome.

What is certainly highly neurotoxic is the combination of MDMA with amphetamines/alcohol, so avoid these combos. 5htp combined with vitamine B6 before and afterwards is a good idea (vitamine B6 is the co-factor that is needed to convert 5htp to serotonine).
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: Mitanox on February 08, 2012, 04:36 pm
5HTP, Magnesium and B6 Vitamine is what always was told to me. To be honest I havent done research into preventing neurotoxicity from MDMA and its hearsay but ive never had any problems with rolling when taking these things...
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: bobbykorn on February 08, 2012, 04:39 pm
Thanks for your input guys. Last time I rolled I woke up the next day feeling like shit so I wanted to try to avoid that if possible.
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: Tryptamine on February 08, 2012, 06:23 pm
To my understanding acute use of MDMA is not neurotoxic in physiological human doses (although I realize the range that people uses vaires). All evidence I've seen that suggests neurotoxicity has been from in vitro studies or animals injected with extreme overdoses, and the human research I've read on 'MDMA only' users indicated no evidence of neurological deficit. Neurons are pretty resilient when they've proper nutrition.
That said, there's no doubt that MDMA use (acute or chronic) can manifest adverse effects, especially after the desired subjective effects have worn off. Jaw clenching, headaches, 'brain fog', mild 'depression', et cetera. I rarely experience these but I understand it's pretty common in people who need to take larger amounts.
So I've designed a nutritional supplement that prevents many of these negative effects, as well as 'real' brain damage that could be caused by adulterants or drugs that are actually neurotoxic (i.e. injected).

Ingredients are:
Magnesium Ascorbate (Vitamin C)
Grape Seed Extract (99% Oligomeric Proanthocyanidins)
Pine Bark Extact (98% Oligomeric Proanthocyanidins)
Ginkgo Biloba Extract (24% Ginkgolides)
Bio-Stabilized Sodium R-Alpha Lipoic Acid (Na-R-ALA)
Acetyl-L-Carnitine (ALCAR)
Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate (Vitamin B6)
5-HydroxyTryptophan (5-HTP)
N-Acetyl-Tyrosine (NALT)
Picamilon (GABA bound to Naicin [B3])
Sulbutiamine (Thiamine dimer [B1])
Bacopa Root Extract

http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/index.php/silkroad/item/5886


If you don't want to try it, vitamin C with flavonoids is a good place to start (try getting buffered C if you can, Magnesium is ideal). A little 5-HTP and some B6 (try for P5P) may also help, but make sure not to overdo either of those. Bacopa is good for protecting against a range of chemically-induced neurotoxicities, so you might want to try that too.
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: 328502E on February 08, 2012, 07:27 pm
as far as I know the neurotoxicity of moderate MDMA doses is still controversial. MDMA itself isn't neurotoxic but some of its metabolites are. And there are different metabolizing routes which makes it a bit complicated.

Studies with rats, to which up to 40mg/kg MDMA was given i.v. daily for 14 days, didn't show any neurotoxicity (normal dose is 1.5mg/kg). I can look up what study that was, if somebody is interested. Other studies showed evidence for neurotoxicity, like serotonine depletion syndrome.

What is certainly highly neurotoxic is the combination of MDMA with amphetamines/alcohol, so avoid these combos. 5htp combined with vitamine B6 before and afterwards is a good idea (vitamine B6 is the co-factor that is needed to convert 5htp to serotonine).

http://dancesafe.org/sites/default/files/images/friedmonkey.jpg
^This is what happens when you give rats 20mg/kg MDMA twice daily for 14 days.  "didn't show any neurotoxicity" is a grossly false.  There is severe brain damage from this.  Of course, no human is going to take MDMA daily for two weeks (I hope).  Also note that the name of the picture is mislabeled - this study was done on rats, not monkeys.  Read the full report here: http://www.erowid.org/references/texts/show/402docid363

MDMA in a single dose is STILL NEUROTOXIC.  Read: http://www.erowid.org/references/texts/show/1365docid1138.  Basically, depleted serotonin causes  dopamine to be taken up by the serotonin reuptake transporter, and once inside the neuron is broken down by monoamine-oxidase.  The dopamine is broken down into a toxic metabolite that runs around inside your neuron oxidizing stuff.  This isn't good.

Taking deprenyl inhibits mao-b.  This means that less dopamine will be broken down and it won't be as neurotoxic.  See: http://www.erowid.org/references/texts/show/974docid844


Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: Tryptamine on February 08, 2012, 09:13 pm
http://dancesafe.org/sites/default/files/images/friedmonkey.jpg
^This is what happens when you give rats 20mg/kg MDMA twice daily for 14 days.  "didn't show any neurotoxicity" is a grossly false.  There is severe brain damage from this.  Of course, no human is going to take MDMA daily for two weeks (I hope).  Also note that the name of the picture is mislabeled - this study was done on rats, not monkeys.  Read the full report here: http://www.erowid.org/references/texts/show/402docid363

That paper is a review of animal neurotoxicities which does not denote the dosages used in the papers it cites, followed by a section where the authors (utterly unconvincingly) make the case that we should believe the same applies to recreational use by humans.
The relevant part is the section that tries to convince us that high dose animal studies are comperable to recreational doses taken by humans.
First, they claim that there is no difference between oral and parenteral administration, citing a study that claims no difference between oral and subcutaneous administration in rats (the most succeptible animals to MDMA neurotoxicity) . That's fine, but irrelevant when subcutaneous administration is not used.
Referring to a primate study they claim that 'even a single 5 mg dose in non-human primates has been found to produce 5-HT neurotoxicity'; in reality, the study they cite used 5 mg/kg doses (roughly 300-400 mg human dose) and noted 'long lasting depletion' of serotonin, not '5-HT neurotoxicity'. They either misread the study or lied outright to support their point.
They also say
"Thus, unless some, as yet unidentified, factor renders humans uniquely insensitive to the toxic effects of MDMA, species differences are not likely to be associated with protection from MDMA-induced brain 5-HT injury."
Except that humans don't spend their entire lives in cages eating lab chow and being probed by scientists, and our neurochemistry is far more dependent on our mental lives, nutrition, and surroundings than a few milligrams of a molecule two carbons away from adrenalin.

Quote
MDMA in a single dose is STILL NEUROTOXIC.  Read: http://www.erowid.org/references/texts/show/1365docid1138.  Basically, depleted serotonin causes  dopamine to be taken up by the serotonin reuptake transporter, and once inside the neuron is broken down by monoamine-oxidase.  The dopamine is broken down into a toxic metabolite that runs around inside your neuron oxidizing stuff.  This isn't good.

Clearly YOU didn't read the study, or maybe a 'single dose' to you means '20 mg/kg injected every 2 hours for 8 hours'. The study's results indicated only that dopamine (and catecholamines in general) likely do NOT participate in 5-HT neurotoxicity; even so, this study is hardly relevant to humans, as the rats were treated with a-methyl-tyrosine and reserpine. You ever see rats on a-Me-tyrosine and reserprine? MDMA neurotoxicity is the least of their problems.

Quote
Taking deprenyl inhibits mao-b.  This means that less dopamine will be broken down and it won't be as neurotoxic.  See: http://www.erowid.org/references/texts/show/974docid844

This may be the case, but is contradicted directly by the previous study you posted.



It's not as simple as finding studies with  "MDMA neurotoxicity" in the title; you need to use some discretion, actually read the studies, and keep in mind that while there are millions of dollars available for you to study the harm of MDMA, there are zero dollars going towards demonstrating its safety in humans.
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: 328502E on February 09, 2012, 12:12 am
That paper is a review of animal neurotoxicities which does not denote the dosages used in the papers it cites, followed by a section where the authors (utterly unconvincingly) make the case that we should believe the same applies to recreational use by humans.
The relevant part is the section that tries to convince us that high dose animal studies are comperable to recreational doses taken by humans.
First, they claim that there is no difference between oral and parenteral administration, citing a study that claims no difference between oral and subcutaneous administration in rats (the most succeptible animals to MDMA neurotoxicity) . That's fine, but irrelevant when subcutaneous administration is not used.
Referring to a primate study they claim that 'even a single 5 mg dose in non-human primates has been found to produce 5-HT neurotoxicity'; in reality, the study they cite used 5 mg/kg doses (roughly 300-400 mg human dose) and noted 'long lasting depletion' of serotonin, not '5-HT neurotoxicity'. They either misread the study or lied outright to support their point.
They also say
"Thus, unless some, as yet unidentified, factor renders humans uniquely insensitive to the toxic effects of MDMA, species differences are not likely to be associated with protection from MDMA-induced brain 5-HT injury."
Except that humans don't spend their entire lives in cages eating lab chow and being probed by scientists, and our neurochemistry is far more dependent on our mental lives, nutrition, and surroundings than a few milligrams of a molecule two carbons away from adrenalin.
I wasn't trying to use this study to prove MDMA is neurotoxic - I realize this is a terrible example.  I was using it to disprove that giving a rate 40mg/kg MDMA every day for 2 weeks is not neurotoxic (as stated by a previous poster).

Quote
Clearly YOU didn't read the study, or maybe a 'single dose' to you means '20 mg/kg injected every 2 hours for 8 hours'. The study's results indicated only that dopamine (and catecholamines in general) likely do NOT participate in 5-HT neurotoxicity; even so, this study is hardly relevant to humans, as the rats were treated with a-methyl-tyrosine and reserpine. You ever see rats on a-Me-tyrosine and reserprine? MDMA neurotoxicity is the least of their problems.

My apologies - I linked to the wrong study (I was browsing through quite a lot of them).  The results are actually in the first study (about non-human primates).  It states that even a single 5mg/kg dose resulted in lowered serotonin levels two weeks later.
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: NeveWitch on February 10, 2012, 12:13 am
Thanks for your input guys. Last time I rolled I woke up the next day feeling like shit so I wanted to try to avoid that if possible.

Ah, the post-MDMA blues, I'm assuming. But really, this was a result of MDMA depleting your serotonin, and not as much MDMA causing neurotoxic damage. I know it's supposed to be a good idea to take antioxidants (like vitamin C and what-not), but as far as helping you feel less shitty after a roll, you should get your hands on some Vitamin B6 and 5htp. Both are readily available online or in health stores. Taking those supplements after a roll should help you restore your serotonin more quickly.
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: v01d on February 10, 2012, 12:24 am
http://dancesafe.org/sites/default/files/images/friedmonkey.jpg
^This is what happens when you give rats 20mg/kg MDMA twice daily for 14 days.  "didn't show any neurotoxicity" is a grossly false.  There is severe brain damage from this.  Of course, no human is going to take MDMA daily for two weeks (I hope).  Also note that the name of the picture is mislabeled - this study was done on rats, not monkeys.  Read the full report here: http://www.erowid.org/references/texts/show/402docid363

MDMA in a single dose is STILL NEUROTOXIC.  Read: http://www.erowid.org/references/texts/show/1365docid1138.  Basically, depleted serotonin causes  dopamine to be taken up by the serotonin reuptake transporter, and once inside the neuron is broken down by monoamine-oxidase.  The dopamine is broken down into a toxic metabolite that runs around inside your neuron oxidizing stuff.  This isn't good.

Taking deprenyl inhibits mao-b.  This means that less dopamine will be broken down and it won't be as neurotoxic.  See: http://www.erowid.org/references/texts/show/974docid844
Oxidised dopamine theory has been proven false IIRC. Take a look here:
http://thedea.org/neurotoxicity
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: 328502E on February 10, 2012, 08:23 am
Oxidised dopamine theory has been proven false IIRC. Take a look here:
http://thedea.org/neurotoxicity

This may be true, but the reference to the study that this page mentions is strangely absent when so many other studies are referenced.  I'll believe it when I see the study - or when a better explanation for neurotoxicity is given. 
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: jtemp102311 on February 12, 2012, 06:31 am
I take a drop of Deprenyl every morning.. this is +/- 1mg.  I also take this during MDMA comedown with COX2 inhibitor Celebrex & cyclobenzaprine to sleep. 

Cyclobenzaprine/ Celebrex/ Deprenyl

Keep all dosages low to avoid interactions.. they seem to cover all neurotoxic bases if used in moderation.

Anyone with additional info/ comments please let me know!
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: jefferys on February 12, 2012, 11:17 pm
Before and before sleep after: Vit C + E + Omega 3 fatty acids (ALA, etc.).

Wait 2 weeks (1 week is bare minimum) between trips.
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: p0och on July 15, 2013, 02:36 am
This thread needs to be revived. Any new developments since?
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: Tryptamine on July 24, 2013, 02:15 am
I'm currently working on writing a review of the literature on the physiology of MDMA as pertains to recreational use, it'll probably be done in a week or so.
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: woollywammoth on July 24, 2013, 02:48 am
This is a must read 2011 paper for anyone curious about the neurotoxicity of MDMA:
"The major implication of our findings is that MDMA-induced 5-HT marker depletion may not necessarily result from a degenerative response."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3137208/

And here's a great online guide for supplementation: http://matznerd.com/how-to-safely-take-mdma/
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: entreterra on July 24, 2013, 03:35 am
I'm surprised there hasn't been more than the couple posts here that mention antioxidants.

ANTIOXIDANTS are the key, man. Take them before, during, and after your roll. The stimulation from MDMA catalyzes oxidation reactions in the brain. Oxidation reactions occur all the time from out daily bodily functions, which is why it's always a good idea to include antioxidant rich foods in your diet to prevent aging and degeneration. However, when taking MDMA, certain oxidation reactions create an abundance of free radical oxygen molecules that can wear down on your nerve endings. Antioxidants greatly reduce the possibility of this damage from free radicals.

Here's what I recommend:

1-2 hours before your roll: -1,000mg of Vitamin C
                                           - 500-1,000mg of Alpha-Lipoic-Acid (ALA)
                                           - 400 IU of Vitamin E
                                           - A cup of green tea
                                           - 300-600mg of CHELATED (citrate or malate are okay too) Magnesium (this is very important, do not buy elemenal magnesium or magnesium oxide because these forms have a worthlessly low absorption rate (something like 4% bioavailability). Magnesium helps with jaw clenching. Also test out 300-600mg of magnesium a few days before your roll, some people have gastrointestinal distress from magnesium in supplement form.

2-4 hours into your roll:     - 1,000mg of Vitamin C
                                           - 500-1,000mg of ALA

Before bed:                        - 1,000mg of Vitamin C
                                           - 500-1,000mg of ALA

The next day:                     -1,000mg of Vitamin C
                                           - 500-1,000mg of Alpha-Lipoic-Acid (ALA)
                                           - 400 IU of Vitamin E
                                           - A cup of green tea

The next 2-3 days:              - At least a regular inclusion of Vitamin C / ALA / Vitamin E in the diet and plenty

of fruits. I've also read pasta and potatoes accelerate serotonin production. As well, excercise is very, very good for regenerating and also, which has been scientifically proven countless times, SUNLIGHT! Spend as much time in the sun as possible, basking in the rays, this will greatly stimulate your serotonin production.


Vitamin C is only utilized for 2-4 hours because it is water soluble which is why it is a good idea to take is every few hours. Vitamin E is fat soluble and does not need to be replenished frequently, plus too much vitamin E is maybe not such a good thing. The neat thing about Vitamin C and Vitamin E together is the Vitamin E helps to recycle the Vitamin C. Once the Vitamin C has absorbed some of the free radical oxygen molecules, the Vitamin E absorbs some of what the Vitamin C has already absorbed, allowing the Vitamin C to continue to absorb more. They work well together. ALA is a very potent antioxidant and is a must have for rolling. Green Tea is full of polyphenols which are excellent antioxidants.

The studies I've read mention that much of the neurotoxicity associated with MDMA use occurs the day or 2 after the roll rather than during the roll itself, so be sure to continue a regimen of supplements for several days after the roll. It will help you feel better faster anyhow.
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: Tryptamine on July 24, 2013, 03:51 am
I agree with everything you posted, with one exception: the dose of ALA should be much lower, 100mg is plenty. Racemic (R/S)-ALA is less than half as active as enantiopure R-ALA, which is the biologically active form (S-ALA inhibits some effects of R-ALA and does not work as a cofactor). Freebase R-ALA is, in turn, many times less effective than stabilized Na-R-ALA, as it has a tendency to polymerize via intramolecular disulfide bonds, rendering the bulk of the dose unusable.
Vitamin E is similar, in that most vitamin E is dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate, which is less than or equal to half as effective as D-alpha-tocopheryl acetate, which is itself less bioavailable than d-alpha-tocopherol (the bioidentical forms), which is less effective than a mix of D-alpha, D-beta, D-gamma, and D-Delta tocopherols. The best would be vitamin E supplement which also contains d-Tocotrienols.
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: saulgood on July 24, 2013, 03:54 am
In case you haven't seen it, there is an EPIC thread on MDMA neurotoxicity on our very own forums:

http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=66048.0 "MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling."

The OP has a great list of resources and recommendations.
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: TorXic on July 24, 2013, 11:58 am
rollsafe.org
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: smogmonster13 on July 24, 2013, 12:41 pm
I agree with Enterra's recommendations, too. with Tryp's caveats. I have seen compelling data on the use of Acetyl-L-Carnitine as a preload as well.
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: fatslimback on July 24, 2013, 07:02 pm
Hi.

Could someone suggest a good chelated magnesium I can buy in the UK? Scouting tinternet there are several brands, but I'm not sure whats best. I've been having real problems with my jaw when taking MDMA recently and I've read this could help.

Cheers.   
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: woollywammoth on July 25, 2013, 01:05 am
This is great, maybe it's available on Amazon uk:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BD0RT0?tag=e101387-20
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: Real_Drugs on July 25, 2013, 05:27 am
Sub
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: fatslimback on July 25, 2013, 08:00 pm
This is great, maybe it's available on Amazon uk:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BD0RT0?tag=e101387-20

I'll check it out,

Thanks.
Title: Re: Reducing Neurotoxicity of MDMA
Post by: smogmonster13 on July 31, 2013, 11:57 pm
I have used the albion chelation method magnesium, and I still have problems if I take too high a dose, or lower-purity MDMA. I don't have a problem when taking a reasonable dose of the purest source.