Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: azmotox1 on March 21, 2013, 03:35 am
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I have taken MDMA probably between 40-60 times over the past 3 years. From this, I believe I have suffered some cognitive decline, such as lack of motivation and mental fog. Because of this I have decided to abstain from MDMA for a long while. Are there any other drugs you recommend trying that would be safe and not contradict the point of MDMA abstinence? I have not tried LSD and have been seriously contemplating trying. What are some others that would be fun at say a 100,000 person music festival?
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Yeah, there are tons of folks around here who like to site exhaustive studies that MDMA is bad but I still really don't buy into it. Long before I started taking MDMA my mind was a little foggy and I lacked motivation. That sort of happens when life isn't interesting regardless of what drugs you put in your brain. If I had been doing MDMA at the time I would have felt just like you do "It's the drug, they told me it was bad and gosh darn it looks like it is.". Nothing wrong with taking a break, damn good for you really, but I wouldn't be completely sold on the MDMA is bad based on pumping rats full of toxic doses of the stuff research that's out there.
Most any drug is going to have issues. I'd say LSD is one of the safer ones out there but for raves and stuff it's not always a controllable experience. There's a fine line with LSD between giddy fun happy time and oh my god I can't get out of this freaking loop. If you try it, give it a go at home a few times or in nice safe, low stress environments and forgo the heroic doses at raves for a while as you get to know the stuff.
If you want to start off a little easier on your system and haven't done psychedelics before, I'd give something like 2CB a try. You can does it to get some fun visuals and a nice body high but it doesn't (for better and worse) fuck with your brain like LSD does.
If you can handle the taste, at low doses, shrooms are often quite giddy and fun. You can get some bad or amazing trips at higher doses, just like acid, but most people can eat a gram or two and still maintain pretty well and stay in a happy mindset.
Not much is going to compete directly with MDMA for a consistently good time unless you like stims and most of those come with trade offs much worse than MDMA.
My personal advice, mix it up a bit. Get motivated, because you, as a person, and not any drug you take, are the only thing in charge of that. If I'm working on a project I'm excited about or living a life I want to live that fog always dissipates.
Good luck!
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GHB and 2C-B always fill the void when my serotonin is gone....especially GHB, the most underrated drug ever.
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Galindoi's sclerotia capsules are amazing! An amazing body high and doesn't fuck with your brain either like LSD, as DiamondSky says :)
I'd recommend LSD in very small doses though. There was a vendor last time I checked form USA who was still vending these 60ug microdots. I'd love to have one for a festival. 60 mic hit wouldn't be too bad, I think you'd enjoy it. Anything over that with a huge crowd though and having never tried, I would not recommend.
Personally I really like 5-meo-dmt. It is one of my favorite drugs to take and listen to music to...Always giving me some massive insight into my mind and bringing to light a special "self awareness" that I cannot describe.
Happy Tripping ~
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@DiamondSky Thanks for your response. Sometimes I think that simply reading that there is a possibility of cognitive decline can enhance my "fogginess". I definitely don't see MDMA seriously hurting me by any means, just small effects. I am sure the lack of motivation has a lot overall to do with my environment: college, partying, stress, sleep deprivation, drugs, and lack of interest. What is 2CB like?
@awesome1126 How do you use GHB? In Combination or solo?
@crack Fox Are those mushroom capsules?
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BlueGiraffe's GHB thread and vendor profile has everything you could want to know, but I'll sum up.
GHB taken in combination is a come-down drug. Great for coming down off of MDMA or 2C-B or LSD
BUT, alone is where GHB shines for me. I am not very tolerant to alcohol, and GHB vills that void completely while also eliminating the negative effects of alcohol completely, and being more social, euphoric, and physically tactile than alcohol could ever be. Sex is incredible. Must try, I highly recommend BlueGiraffe
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@DiamondSky Thanks for your response. Sometimes I think that simply reading that there is a possibility of cognitive decline can enhance my "fogginess". I definitely don't see MDMA seriously hurting me by any means, just small effects. I am sure the lack of motivation has a lot overall to do with my environment: college, partying, stress, sleep deprivation, drugs, and lack of interest. What is 2CB like?
@awesome1126 How do you use GHB? In Combination or solo?
@crack Fox Are those mushroom capsules?
Yeah I think you'll find most mental fog is really just life being a little hard or lame. I've been there, 100% groggy 24 hours a day, listless and hopeless and then I meat a pretty girl and boom I'm alive again. The drug probably does fuck with what it takes to get you jazzed up since it raises the bar but so what, start jumping out of planes or climb a mountain!
2CB is really probably the most mellow psychedelic you can get into. At low doses it gives you a nice little body high. Not rolling on the clouds or anything but a little something that normally feels good. At higher doses it keeps about the same body high but adds some visuals. If you have ever tried MDA at larger doses the visuals are very similar. If not I guess the best way to describe it would be pictures on a wall become 3D, everything has a sort of movement to it. It's almost like watching a 3d film without the glasses at times. It's most redeeming characteristics and my occasional complaint is that it doesn't mess with your head much. On acid, things will look different and feel different. The colors will be passionately beautiful for instance and inspire a sence of great appreciation for the beauty of it all, on 2CB it's more like watch the world with special effect goggles on. You get a little trippy but at no point would you converse with the tree god and try to make amends for your many sins against nature.
I have a 2CB thread at http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=106130.0 if you want more.
While I like the stuff, I don't sell it or even endorse it all the time. It's a fun drug especially with other drugs. It's controllable which for me is nice since sometimes I just want a little kick and not a full fledged trip. Another one to give a look to might be Moxy. I've done it a few times, like it but still haven't completely figured the stuff out. Getting more though since it seems to have potential.
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The LSD I bought from MidnightBlue was apparently very clean and I took it and left my house to go to a show on Sunset Blvd. in Hollywood. It was my very first time! They used to call me a NARC but after all the research I did on this drug I was determined to try it. I guess it was the perfect dose, not too strong, as I enjoyed being outdoors and felt I could walk forever.
I was extremely motivated and wanted to experience as much of life as I could! I have only ever tried marijuana before so I can't compare it to MDMA, I don't even know what that is exactly. I can only tell you that my first experience with LSD was off of SR and it was a good one!
Time meant nothing and everything looked brighter.
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LSD will ALWAYS be my go-to drug for most any occasion. Once you get used to it, your whole world can be a mess of fractals and nobody is the wiser. IMO most of the issues people have w/ LSD is when they're trying to be something they're not. Insecurities and social anxiety are heightened on LSD, but if you can learn to let go and not give two fucks about what people think about you then very little can go wrong if you're not taking heroic doses.
As far as starting off w/ under 100ug, I'm of the mindset that it's actually not the best of ideas. IMO if you're doing LSD for the first few times, you shouldn't be in a setting where you'd be uncomfortable acting a little strange anyways, and some people act MORE weird when in the 50-100ug range. Taking more kills your ego, which is what brings about the anxiety in the first place. Once you get past 400ug it's hard to even consider giving a fuck what anyone thinks about you, and I tend to have an easier time being all tripped out in social settings at that point.
Being anxious about taking it the first time is 100% normal, but as long as you truly believe you're going to have a good trip you will 95% of the time. As someone who was once in the same boat as you, I can say now that I much prefer taking LSD over MDMA. I just find it to be a much more well-rounded chemical that isn't just a party enhancer and social lubricant. It can most definitely be both of those things, but not for those who are taking it when in the wrong mindset.
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LSD will ALWAYS be my go-to drug for most any occasion. Once you get used to it, your whole world can be a mess of fractals and nobody is the wiser. IMO most of the issues people have w/ LSD is when they're trying to be something they're not. Insecurities and social anxiety are heightened on LSD, but if you can learn to let go and not give two fucks about what people think about you then very little can go wrong if you're not taking heroic doses.
As far as starting off w/ under 100ug, I'm of the mindset that it's actually not the best of ideas. IMO if you're doing LSD for the first few times, you shouldn't be in a setting where you'd be uncomfortable acting a little strange anyways, and some people act MORE weird when in the 50-100ug range. Taking more kills your ego, which is what brings about the anxiety in the first place. Once you get past 400ug it's hard to even consider giving a fuck what anyone thinks about you, and I tend to have an easier time being all tripped out in social settings at that point.
Being anxious about taking it the first time is 100% normal, but as long as you truly believe you're going to have a good trip you will 95% of the time. As someone who was once in the same boat as you, I can say now that I much prefer taking LSD over MDMA. I just find it to be a much more well-rounded chemical that isn't just a party enhancer and social lubricant. It can most definitely be both of those things, but not for those who are taking it when in the wrong mindset.
I wish I felt that way about LSD. It makes me withdrawn, anxious, and generally uncomfortable. That's at about 150 mics. Although I probably should just take more. I have an insanely high tolerance to most things, and my best LSD trips have been my higher dosed ones (250-350), so maybe I'm answering my own question here. It just seems counter-intuitive to take more of something that makes me feel bad.
And to GHB...why isn't there any in the US?!? C'MON!
:D
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I recommend mushrooms. They seem like a natural way to start the psychedelic path :) I wouldn't recommend it for raves, but I believe they could help you with your lack of motivation. I don't know about the mental fog, yet anything is possible. Also, if you DO happen to get a bad trip, the shrooms have a much shorter trip duration. Smaller doses give easy/fun/pretty trips, still with great insight. Higher dosages will give some massive otherworldly unforgettable experiences. Often high dose trips are in no way easy, but extremely rewarding.
Please be careful, though, whichever drug you choose to explore next. Do not take a drug you have never tried before at a rave or festival. It probably would work out well, but the chances of the trip backfiring are much greater if you have never experienced some of its properties before. My personal favorite for parties is definitely 2C-B. It also works great for painting, not so much for playing guitar. When it comes to the appreciation of music, shrooms are superior to anything else I have tried yet. If you are going to trip in daytime, then LSD is preferable to shrooms (most of the visuals disappear unless you are in complete/near complete darkness with the fungi). LSD is more adaptable, but also more exhausting and the trip duration can be quite harsh until you get some experience.
But yeah, LSD and shrooms are basically the ABC of tripping ;) 2C-B is interesting, but I recommend you try one of the other two first.
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LSD will ALWAYS be my go-to drug for most any occasion. Once you get used to it, your whole world can be a mess of fractals and nobody is the wiser. IMO most of the issues people have w/ LSD is when they're trying to be something they're not. Insecurities and social anxiety are heightened on LSD, but if you can learn to let go and not give two fucks about what people think about you then very little can go wrong if you're not taking heroic doses.
As far as starting off w/ under 100ug, I'm of the mindset that it's actually not the best of ideas. IMO if you're doing LSD for the first few times, you shouldn't be in a setting where you'd be uncomfortable acting a little strange anyways, and some people act MORE weird when in the 50-100ug range. Taking more kills your ego, which is what brings about the anxiety in the first place. Once you get past 400ug it's hard to even consider giving a fuck what anyone thinks about you, and I tend to have an easier time being all tripped out in social settings at that point.
Being anxious about taking it the first time is 100% normal, but as long as you truly believe you're going to have a good trip you will 95% of the time. As someone who was once in the same boat as you, I can say now that I much prefer taking LSD over MDMA. I just find it to be a much more well-rounded chemical that isn't just a party enhancer and social lubricant. It can most definitely be both of those things, but not for those who are taking it when in the wrong mindset.
I wish I felt that way about LSD. It makes me withdrawn, anxious, and generally uncomfortable. That's at about 150 mics. Although I probably should just take more. I have an insanely high tolerance to most things, and my best LSD trips have been my higher dosed ones (250-350), so maybe I'm answering my own question here. It just seems counter-intuitive to take more of something that makes me feel bad.
And to GHB...why isn't there any in the US?!? C'MON!
:D
Yeah, it definitely seems like backwards logic, but I've always found I have an easier time w/ anxiety in the 200+ range. I try to avoid the 75-150 range if I'm not planning on drinking a decent amount or eating MDMA, but will sometimes take 50ug just to get a little bit of headspace going. I will say that I almost always drink a couple beers or have a few shots before dropping L, and that always helps take the edge off of transitioning from sobriety. In fact, I usually won't take LSD if I don't have any access to any alcohol whatsoever (or worst case scenario benzoes) just in case I do start feeling a little off. Taking a little MDMA works too, but I try not to eat too much MDMA when I have clean LSD available.
Whiskey has saved me from a bad trip on more than one occasion lol :)
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MDA is a pretty good substitute, works in a similar fashion so you get the a similar feeling but different route in your brain so doesn't burn up those same receptors in your tasty brain
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MDA is a pretty good substitute, works in a similar fashion so you get the a similar feeling but different route in your brain so doesn't burn up those same receptors in your tasty brain
MDA is awesome but I would put it right in the same category as MDMA as far as how good for you it is. Here's a section of the wiki article which lays it out nicely:
MDA is thought to be similar in pharmacological mechanism of action and phenomenological effects to its more widely used N-methyl analog, MDMA. MDA causes serotonin and dopamine release by acting as a substrate at the SERT and DAT, respectively. The effect on serotonin may explain the similar euphoric and empathogenic effects of the two compounds MDMA and MDA. However, (S)-MDA has a higher efficacy in stimulating the 5-HT2A receptor than (R)-MDMA; thus MDA tends to cause more psychedelic-like effects, such as visual hallucinations. MDMA can also produce psychedelic-like visual effects, though these are generally less pronounced than those of MDA, or require a heavier dose to become apparent.
MDA is said to share the entactogenic effects of MDMA. While it is generally similar to MDMA, users report that MDA has more stimulant and psychedelic qualities and slightly less intense entactogenic effects than MDMA. MDA is also considered less predictable than MDMA, with effects varying greatly from person to person. However, no properly controlled experiments have compared these drugs in humans. MDA was best known for its enhancement of the experiences of dancing and sex.
MDA also differs from its methylated cousin MDMA in its acute toxicity—it is clearly more toxic, with toxicity indicative of overstimulation of the central nervous system and the cardiovascular system.[3] Symptoms of acute toxicity may include agitation, sweating, increased blood pressure and heart rate, dramatic increase in body temperature, convulsions, and death. Death is usually caused by cardiac effects and subsequent hemorrhaging in the brain (stroke).[3] The website erowid.org lists the fatality rate at roughly 2 in 100,000 users, assuming it has similar rates as MDMA.[4] The median lethal dose (LD50) in mice has been reported as 92 mg/kg by intraperitoneal injection.
I don't buy into most of the neurotoxic stuff myself but I do agree that the mechanisms of action are very similar and that MDA in general, leaves me feeling a bit more "used" after I've taken a good amount of it. If you haven't tried it I would put it high on the list of things to do because it really is a fun drug but I wouldn't look at it as an alternative to MDMA since they are nearly the same drug with MDMA being a bit more loving and MDA being a bit more physically stimulating and visually active.
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LSD will ALWAYS be my go-to drug for most any occasion. Once you get used to it, your whole world can be a mess of fractals and nobody is the wiser. IMO most of the issues people have w/ LSD is when they're trying to be something they're not. Insecurities and social anxiety are heightened on LSD, but if you can learn to let go and not give two fucks about what people think about you then very little can go wrong if you're not taking heroic doses.
As far as starting off w/ under 100ug, I'm of the mindset that it's actually not the best of ideas. IMO if you're doing LSD for the first few times, you shouldn't be in a setting where you'd be uncomfortable acting a little strange anyways, and some people act MORE weird when in the 50-100ug range. Taking more kills your ego, which is what brings about the anxiety in the first place. Once you get past 400ug it's hard to even consider giving a fuck what anyone thinks about you, and I tend to have an easier time being all tripped out in social settings at that point.
Being anxious about taking it the first time is 100% normal, but as long as you truly believe you're going to have a good trip you will 95% of the time. As someone who was once in the same boat as you, I can say now that I much prefer taking LSD over MDMA. I just find it to be a much more well-rounded chemical that isn't just a party enhancer and social lubricant. It can most definitely be both of those things, but not for those who are taking it when in the wrong mindset.
Excellent explanation of how social circumstances affect the LSD experience. When I was first taking it I constantly tried to force myself to be the laid back calm person, I am not entirely sure why, I just wanted to have that "sage wisdom" vibe going. This took away most of what the experience was offering. When I finally learned of my attraction to the outdoors, to water, and to an overall sense of pure unaltered exploration and curiosity, the acid experience changed, became something of a wonder to me.
Mdma had it's fun with me, and I it, but I realized after taking 350+ mg of MDA in a night that I truly needed a break. At the 3 month mark I started noticing the issues with my cognitive abilities: my memory mainly. Some very odd psychosis-like events reared their ugly heads as well, things that are commonly described by LSD users as flashbacks. I did not understand the significance of a flashback until I took a break from MDXX chemicals.
I would say that you should venture into low dose mushroom experiences > .75-1.5 grams.
There's also a variety of psilocin analogues available for an insignificant cost, but tolerance builds extremely quick with them, and the experience can grow tiresome because of reasons similar to people's issues with 2cb (being a "on the surface" experience).
Good luck in your trials, OP!
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Sorry for the derail, but...
@DiamondSky: May I ask why you do not buy into MDMA being neurotoxic? I'm legitimately interested as to why you do not heed the findings of hundreds upon hundreds of scientific studies. You state that it's because they pump high doses of MDMA into rats that seem to be higher than any recreational dosage a human being would take. I must stress that rats are extremely tolerant to neurotoxic effects of ANYTHING so they must follow a dose responsive curve. This curve compares to recreational dosages to humans. Let me better help paint a picture of MDMA induced neurotoxicity in HUMANS since studies in rats do not seem to convince you.
Here's one that found a reduction in SERT in former ecstasy users.
> http://jnm.snmjournals.org/content/44/3/375.abstract
Here's another one that had similar results.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11576026?dopt=Abstract
Here's one that noted "long-lasting changes in brain function consistent with 5-HT toxicity".
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18991874
Here's one that found decreased serotonin binding in users.
> http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/133/6/1779.abstract
Here's one that found long-term effects effects on central neuronal activity in humans.
> http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/175/2/186.short
Here's one that found a long-lasting increase in cortical excitability in former users.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21326196
These are studies that included neuroimaging on human users. This is important because researchers can physically SEE the alterations. More studies have found LONG-TERM damage as well. Let me direct you to a few more:
Here's one that found reduced cortical SERT binding in former users after months of abstinence.
> http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=211305
Here's one that found NO improvement in verbal memory in former users 2.5 years of abstinence.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16510479
Here's one that found long lasting serotonin system impairment in former users.
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006322399001808
Let's talk about cognitive decline for a second as well. Here's a good overview of the cognitive decline in human users.
Evidence from human studies has accumulated more slowly, but it is becoming apparent that the toxic effect of MDMA on central serotonergic systems found previously in animal studies has a clear parallel in human users of the drug.There is now direct evidence of a lasting decrease in 5-HT uptake sites (a marker for the integrity of 5-HT nerve terminals) in human volunteers with a past history of MDMA abuse.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071023/
This meta-study found CLEAR evidence of neurocognitive decline in former MDMA users and clearly states there is DIRECT evidence for neurotoxicity. And this paper used 28 other studies as sources! Let me keep going, because there's hundreds more studies I can quote. Here's a few dealing with memory impairments.
Here's one from Hong Kong that found abstinent users were impaired in memory, verbal fluency, and complex attention.
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/54l1rt315ew2f58a/
Here's one that found that even a small, first dose of ecstasy can cause a decline in verbal memory.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9952062
Here's another that found memory impairments and the researchers believe it is directly caused by Serotonergic neurotoxicty.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9952062
Here's one that found memory impairments in abstinent users and evidence of PFC dysfunction.
> http://jop.sagepub.com/content/20/3/373.abstract
Here's one that found a direct relationship between amount of usage and amount of declarative memory deficit.
> http://jop.sagepub.com/content/25/4/465.abstract
Here's one that found that heavy users had a weaker blood oxygenation level-dependent response during a working memory task.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12706227
And not all evidence is limited to just 5-HT axons and the SERT. Evidence exists that MDMA damages vital brain structures as well.
Here's one that found hippocampal damage in chronic users.
> http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/83/1/83.abstract
This study found that the hippocampus in MDMA users literally shrinks. The hippocampus is implemented in mnemonic function. And I feel the need to point out that Alzheimer's patients also demonstrate hippocampal atrophy!
Here's one that found diminished hippocampal activation during memory retrieval.
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/8x4gh2402y2ay2dw/
Speaking of the hippocampus, here's a case report of a 16 year old who suffered "hippocampal remodelling" after low to moderate use.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18609419
Here's one that found toxic effects on the thalamus.
> http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/193/4/289.abstract
And this is just HUMAN studies I am referencing. There are also hundreds upon hundreds of animal studies that prove neurotoxicity in several species including rats, mice, guinea pigs, and primates. Animal studies are important because researchers can literally cut open the brains of the subjects and SEE the damage that is being done. Let me state this simple fact right now: MDMA neurotoxicity is no longer up for debate. It hasn't been for a very long time. Researchers almost unanimously agree.
IT IS A PROVEN NEUROTOXIN.
With all this said, MDMA can be used safely with very little repercussions when used RESPONSIBLY by allowing 2-3 months between use, maintaining healthy dosing guidelines, supplementing each roll properly with antioxidants, and most importantly, ensuring you keep a LOW BODY temperature.
I love MDMA just as much as the next, but stating that "you do not buy into it" is flat out unwise. I truly mean no disrespect with this post, but you need to realize and accept the dangers, brother. Much love to you.
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Sure, here is a case by case run down for why this is not science:
http://jnm.snmjournals.org/content/44/3/375.abstract - Non controlled study of people that said they were active or had been active MDMA users. At no point was the use of MDMA confirmed and no other lifestyle or concurrent drug use taken into consideration. To put it another way, if I collected a portion of the population that had no cars and a portion of the population that had fords and examined the percentage of people in the Ford owning group who had been in an accident I could scientifically prove by the same logic in this study that Ford's caused auto accidents.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11576026?dopt=Abstract - Exactly the same flawed "science" as above. How much MDMA did they take? Was it tested? Did they drink when taking it? Were they at raves or sitting at home? Did they snort a half pound of heroin at the same time? I could go on for days why this provides zero useful information and fails completely to qualify as science.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18991874 - Is not even a study but instead a proposal of how to look at how to study MDMA induced neurochemical alterations.
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/133/6/1779.abstract - Same as the first two, subjects took what they claim was MDMA as well as any number of other drugs and yet this study seeks to claim that MDMA caused any perceived differences between the groups.
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/175/2/186.short - Once again the same exact failing as the previous "studies". I don't know how you are missing this but all of these are taking "drug users" who have also taken MDMA or what they thought was MDMA and found that their brains are slightly different. There is no single point of data in any of these that suggests that MDMA is responsible and I could change the criteria of the test to pot, speed, meth or anything else and come to the same conclusion because all the subjects did all that stuff too!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21326196 - As above...
You know I was going to go through the whole list but the reality of it is there's really no point in driving further down. The fact is not a single scientific controlled study has administered MDMA to human users in exclusion of other drugs and demonstrated before and after differences of the subject as a result of MDMA use. That is what science is, this, all of these, they are hearsay and supposition.
I'm all about harm reduction and yes I think that MDMA causes changes to your neurochemistry. However I think that by parading around non-scientific studies and claiming that they provide some insight into the potential harm of any given chemical is just as irresponsible as claiming there is no harm to be had. Everyone single one of the studies above could have been conducted on Marijuana and come to the same conclusion because there was no discrimination on what other drugs were taken. Is that really science for you when the result of the study can be exchanged for any number of other chemicals without any change?
Not trying to pick a fight as you can hopefully tell. I love MDMA research, I wish we would actually do some. For all we know 90% of any damage done could be mitigated by something as simple as regulating body temperature through a cold shower or a glass of ice water. But these studies do not seek to mitigate harm they seek to propagate the idea that MDMA is bad and unfortunately I feel it's wrong to spread that rumor blindly.
Anyway, love the thread and will continue to look forward to real information about the effects this lovely drug has on people. I hope some day this becomes a legally available substance that we can all learn to use responsibly since I feel like most people would benefit from seeing the world through the beautiful window that MDMA provides.
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I do not consider hundreds upon hundreds of studies by researchers with doctorates as pseudo-science. There is a resounding and deafening opinion within the medical community that MDMA is neurotoxic on the 5-HT axons and I firmly believe that caution needs to be had when using it as a recreational drug. Harm reduction should be absolutely PIVOTAL to any recreational drug use, regardless if its MDMA or another substance. You may choose to believe that MDMA is not neurotoxic, but I am going to continue to err on the side of caution and advise others to formulate their own opinion on the research we've been provided.
The intent of these studies are to objectively quantify 5-HT damage and how MDMA is associated with it. MDMA is very seroternegic, so it makes sense that the two are inextricably linked because they are. I'm positive the scientists conducting this research are not trying to make MDMA out to be harmful, but trying to indicate that harm CAN be done if used irresponsibly.
I'm positive that when seeking out subjects to conduct these studies, they were very thorough on their selection and ensured that they asked basic questions such as "What other substances have you done? What was your frequency of use? What mental health issues do you have?" They aren't just whimsically selecting random people off the streets. The process for selecting subjects is very in-depth, and I truthfully do not see how you cannot consider this as science and see how it fails to provide us with any valuable information. Obviously we cannot ascertain completely all environmental or biological factors, but the simple fact of the matter is that we are not going to obliterate a human being with MDMA in a controlled environment due to ethical reasons, and this research is what we have to go by.
I understand you're not trying to pick a fight, brother, and neither am I. :) Neither of us are tossing personal attacks at each other. This is a discussion and we both have differing opinions on the matter. Also, you're entirely correct that neurotoxicity can be mitigated by something as simple as regulating body temperature. The primary cause of 5-HT axon damage is due to oxidative stress from a significant rise in body temperature (typically overexertion, such as dancing too often). Further supplementing with antioxidants, particularly alpha lipoic acid which quickly binds to free radicals, will even further mitigate this damage.
Much love, and +1.
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My crowd loves Mephedrone way more than MDMA. They say its sexier and easier to deal with the hangover. I Had two hoes one night doing some bumps of Drone with me and these total sluts where calling my drone "Fire Molly". Just don't abuse the drone. Because Drone side effects are crazy fucked, and it's so easy to say ya know what fuck everything im gonna be in my room watching 20 different streaming porns at the same time doing lines of drone all day and night. It's specicaly easy if your a flipper cash stacker like me and you aint got a job to be at.
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L to the S to the D
i don't do it anymore, but your situation screams acid. you need this stuff man. get some and take it.
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Meph went from pure sex to pure darkness over about 6 months for me, eventually the worst comedown I ever had. Weird stuff. Normally I go to sleep and wake up fine, and think "comedowns only happen to other people"...
6-APB is mental, like speedy/non-mongy MDMA. But it is apparently an analog, so maybe a bit close to home for comfort.
MXE is like the best vodka martini ever, 50 mg snorted and the whole world has a slick, relaxed sheen, that lasts for at least 4 hours. You can dance on it, or just chill. Beautiful stuff. We always feel we're traveling First Class, whatever shitty old bus or cab we're in on that stuff!
2CB is great, but some friends have found it random/uncomfortable. 25i-Nbome is really nice though, smoother and more beautiful IMHO. The Nbome's seem to bring a whole new level of sophistication to the psychedelic party. If Apple made drugs, they'd probably be Nbomes ;-)
GHB is fine, til you have your second measure and pass out!
Everything depends on how/where you want to do stuff. Personally, I prefer less visual stuff away from home.
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In defense of DiamondSky's skepticism, I'll just point out that several decades of drug prohibition can easily tempt people, even intelligent people, to ascribe more danger to these substances than is justified. Many scientists have believed they found evidence that cannabis, for instance, causes brain damage, but the evidence typically turns out to be derived from faulty research.
I shouldn't be surprised if the prohibitionist mentality influences even the drug-friendly Silk Road community. Perhaps the truly dangerous neurotoxin is the war on drugs.
(I've posted a duplicate of this message on another thread: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=66048.msg925625#msg925625 )
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I do not consider hundreds upon hundreds of studies by researchers with doctorates as pseudo-science. There is a resounding and deafening opinion within the medical community that MDMA is neurotoxic on the 5-HT axons and I firmly believe that caution needs to be had when using it as a recreational drug. Harm reduction should be absolutely PIVOTAL to any recreational drug use, regardless if its MDMA or another substance. You may choose to believe that MDMA is not neurotoxic, but I am going to continue to err on the side of caution and advise others to formulate their own opinion on the research we've been provided.
The intent of these studies are to objectively quantify 5-HT damage and how MDMA is associated with it. MDMA is very seroternegic, so it makes sense that the two are inextricably linked because they are. I'm positive the scientists conducting this research are not trying to make MDMA out to be harmful, but trying to indicate that harm CAN be done if used irresponsibly.
I'm positive that when seeking out subjects to conduct these studies, they were very thorough on their selection and ensured that they asked basic questions such as "What other substances have you done? What was your frequency of use? What mental health issues do you have?" They aren't just whimsically selecting random people off the streets. The process for selecting subjects is very in-depth, and I truthfully do not see how you cannot consider this as science and see how it fails to provide us with any valuable information. Obviously we cannot ascertain completely all environmental or biological factors, but the simple fact of the matter is that we are not going to obliterate a human being with MDMA in a controlled environment due to ethical reasons, and this research is what we have to go by.
I understand you're not trying to pick a fight, brother, and neither am I. :) Neither of us are tossing personal attacks at each other. This is a discussion and we both have differing opinions on the matter. Also, you're entirely correct that neurotoxicity can be mitigated by something as simple as regulating body temperature. The primary cause of 5-HT axon damage is due to oxidative stress from a significant rise in body temperature (typically overexertion, such as dancing too often). Further supplementing with antioxidants, particularly alpha lipoic acid which quickly binds to free radicals, will even further mitigate this damage.
Much love, and +1.
I know where you are coming from but read the actual reports they all specify that the the subjects tested have used other drugs or at least do not specify what the subjects specific drug history was and weigh that information into a user profile. If I ask a dozen SR users if they have used cocaine in the last month and then take another group that used it over a year ago and then compare their brains to people that have never used cocaine have I learned ANYTHING about cocaine's effect on the brain? Does it matter if hundreds of people repeat the test? Thousands? The test, at it's very core, is fundamentally flawed. Because that same user group statistically smokes pot, drinks, and does other drugs and thus the results are equally applicable to any of those other activities which is to say they are completely inconclusive.
Further, we both agree to some extent that part of the harm profile of MDMA comes about as a result of internal heating. Do you think the potential harm is increased or decreased as a result of the users activity. For example does a 15 year old raver dancing all night with no water have the same potential damage risks as I do sitting at home with my girlfriend in front of the AC?
I say it's not science because we learn nothing from it. I can't take the information and use it in someway because I don't even know with any degree of confidence that the so called results are driven by MDMA use, lifestyle issues, income disparity, diet considerations, racial considerations, age differences or usage examples among thousands of other variables left off of this research.
I'm sure at some point you must have seen Reefer Madness right? This is that kind of science, brought to you by the same sorts of people. I know we have a point of agreement here even if we don't agree on the usefulness of the current information:
To properly conduct a study on the potential harm that MDMA represents you need to study a subjects brain BEFORE they take MDMA and then AFTER they take MDMA and then compare the two results to establish what potential damage might be done by that specific drug.
Taking a group of ravers and a group of bible thumpers and dropping them on MRI's (which is basically what the studies have done) and announcing that their brains behave differently says nothing at all about MDMA even if MDMA was one of the drugs that the ravers took.
Lab tests with animals are helpful in suggesting potential harm of any given compound but never in the history of the FDA have they authorized release of a product based on animal studies alone because people are different especially when talking about the specifics of neurochemistry. Even with human trials of different drugs people are still different which is why some folks smile on SSRI's and other, upon stopping them, go and shoot up a school room full of kids. So while animal studies can point to a potential issue they can not ascribe that behavior to humans until they have done legitimate testing.
I love the idea of telling people to slow down their rolls and be careful with their doses. It's good advice backed up by the real science we have all done in taking the stuff, too much too often is bad for us. You don't need research papers written by people who are so blinded by their preconceptions that they fail to perform actual science in lieu of this propaganda.
So my only point is that I take it all with a grain of salt.
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*clearnet link*
http://bluehoney.org/2011/02/15/harvard-study-published-in-addiction-shows-ecstasy-not-associated-with-cognitive-decline/
I suggest reading that. It echo's what Diamond is saying, and though I cannot find the link currently, the study itself is a five years and comprehensive and shows no cognitive decline in the users tested.
When reading a study, you should stop the minute you read "poly drug user", or its analogous. You should also not jump to the conclusion portion, and take its word as golden. A former friend of mine earned their PhD by proving a relatively excepted theory incorrect. Also, there are people who are studying things and releasing papers that are graduating at the bottom of their class, and from 3rd tier schools. Just because you release an article doesn't mean the community excepts it or concurs.
Personally, I think anything humans take in that is non-natural can be / is harmful. The key, obviously, is the dosage. Vitamin C will severely fuck you up if you take large amounts for an extended period of time. Teenage girls swallow a bottle of Tylenol, and have an extremely painful death over the next couple days. Alcohol is a king bad boy, just go ask your local homeless--if they are coherent enough (while sober) to give an intelligible response.
So sure, MDMA may cause long term cognitive problems when you take a bunch. For example, one of the articles AV linked stated the average usage in its subjects was 260ish pills over 6.5 years. Thats nearly a pill every week, with a pill being ???mg, for 6 years. Lets not forget the adulterants or other drugs in it. Given that most substances you can take will fuck you up when taken a ton over a prolonged period of time, I am not overly shocked or concerned. Another note on the same study: the hippocampal varies naturally (there are several, several studies that show PTSD causing reductions, for instance)--the author must have left that out.
Blasting 'use responsibly' I am all for. Posting misleading articles and saying that they need to be taken as the final say, and they have solid reasoning behind them, I don't really get down with.
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Appreciate you posting that Har - it pretty much states all of the methodological flaws with the previous "studies" which are identical to the ones mentioned above and come to the entirely predictable conclusion that if you apply even a tiny bit of thought to this process you realize that drug users who have done MDMA are not the same as people who have only done MDMA. Because MDMA is considered "bad" this insane non-scientific ramble is passed on as science when just looking at the test criteria exposes it as nothing of the sort.
If you were looking for the full paper it's here:
* CLEARNET WARNING * http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2010.03252.x/abstract
This obviously is not scientific proof that MDMA is safe but it is a study that at least tried to narrow down MDMA as the active compound rather than just accepting MDMA users with all the drug history that goes along with that totally overlooked. Until you do before and after brain scans over a period of time on a reasonably large control group we won't really know how safe the drugs we take are. With MDMA at least it is so painfully obvious that there are therapeutic possibilities with it some people are driven to do the research despite the stigma.
I appreciate you taking the time to track this down since it says it all so much better than I could!
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M
X
E
and don't look back............. 8)
,
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I love MDMA research, I wish we would actually do some. For all we know 90% of any damage done could be mitigated by something as simple as regulating body temperature through a cold shower or a glass of ice water. But these studies do not seek to mitigate harm they seek to propagate the idea that MDMA is bad and unfortunately I feel it's wrong to spread that rumor blindly.
This.
Any truly scientific debate is currently impossible because of the effective moratorium on any meaningful psychedelic research as a result of the arbitrary prohibition of any research within a few narrow branches of organic chemistry, despite overwhelming anecdotal evidence (for want of anything better) that they may hold astonishing benefits for our long term mental health if nothing else.
How is it possible in the same ethical framework to sanction the use of e.g. Ritalin and anti-depressants in juvenile developing brains, yet forbid the use of e.g. MDMA by (allegedly) free, responsible adults?
The UK Drug Advisory Council were unequivocal in assigning MDMA a "relatively low risk of harm"; their political masters could find no effective means of countering this argument, so they sacked the chairman, Dr David Nutt, an eminent specialist in this very field.
I've taken all sorts of stuff over the last 20 years or so, hold down a demanding job, and still score well below my actual age on Dr Kawashima's Brain Training! ;D
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Moxy (5-MeO-MiPT) :)
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M
X
E
and don't look back............. 8)
,
What exactly is MXE?
Moxy (5-MeO-MiPT) :)
Moxy huh? What does this stuff do?
8)
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http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_mipt/5meo_mipt_effects.shtml
Erowid explains it best :)
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It doesn't matter to me whether MDMA is a scientifically proven neurotoxin or not. There is at the very least a substantial case for it.
Better to assume it is and treat it accordingly. Anything that makes you feel that good has to have drawbacks of some kind.
I definitely don't stick to safe levels but like the OP I'm moving away from it because I sure don't want to further risk my brain. It's pretty important!
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It doesn't matter to me whether MDMA is a scientifically proven neurotoxin or not. There is at the very least a substantial case for it.
Better to assume it is and treat it accordingly. Anything that makes you feel that good has to have drawbacks of some kind.
What's so bad about feeling good? ;)
Seriously, though, I don't believe that "when in doubt, assume the worst" is any way to live.
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It doesn't matter to me whether MDMA is a scientifically proven neurotoxin or not. There is at the very least a substantial case for it.
Better to assume it is and treat it accordingly. Anything that makes you feel that good has to have drawbacks of some kind.
That last part smells of religious indoctrination. What about e.g. sex, dancing, outdoor activities, eating?
If you want to eliminate all risk from your life, the attempt will be unsuccessful and leave you miserable and lonely, with masses of potential unfulfilled.
I don't blame you, but the notion of "risk management" has been pushed out to the general public by clueless government agencies. It's straight from the "War On Terror" book of unhelpful, unattainable abstractions.
Risk exists in all things. It is never zero. Deal with it, or literally, die trying.
So long as you don't regularly take >1000mg MDMA, drive home from the club, and then head down the shooting range at sun up, you will probably be OK ;)
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The thing that always gets me with these threads is that people think they will somehow lead a less toxic life without some drug or another. Breathing is toxic on the planet we live on. We drink water pumped full of fluorides. That hamburger you ate last week came from a cow pumped full of chemicals before being butchered and having the meat sprayed with poisons that happen to keep it red a little longer. I mean if I am going to cause permanent psychological harm to myself I might as well do it in exchange for a huge smile!
For me, MDMA has been a huge positive influence in my life. It's helped me appreciate the simple beauty of loving and being loved by someone. It's taught me that regardless of age, my brain is capable of incredible highs and a sense of wonder and amazement that I thought lost over the years that I now endeavor to capture every day of my life with or without drugs. For me, I would take my brain and place it on a frying pan in exchange for the benefits I've received from using the stuff. Fortunately, I don't think I have to make that concession so I'll just keep living with all the perks and use the stuff for another decade or two to find out what other lessons it has for me.
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It is impossible to live pleasurably without living wisely, well, and justly, and impossible to live wisely, well, and justly without living pleasurably. Epicurus taught: Pleasure, defined as freedom from pain, is the highest good.
Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)
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I'm tellin you guys...GHB!!!
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I'm tellin you guys...GHB!!!
I ordered 10g of Giraffe's GHB last week ;)
Going to try it at this 3 day festival coming up.. What else will help me keep going at this festival besides GHB and LSD?
;D
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M
X
E
and don't look back............. 8)
,
What exactly is MXE?
something wonderful
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M
X
E
and don't look back............. 8)
,
What exactly is MXE?
something wonderful
I am definitely intrigued, can you elaborate? Also what is your go to vendor for this MXE? :D
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M
X
E
and don't look back............. 8)
,
What exactly is MXE?
something wonderful
I am definitely intrigued, can you elaborate? Also what is your go to vendor for this MXE? :D
methoxetamine is a ketamine analogue in the dissociative class. it's very lovely chemical and has benefited me greatly, though i prefer ketamine. reich and awakened350 have fantastic mxe.
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Hey guys thanks for all of the responses here, I have started a new thread asking for advice for my first LSD experience which I am planning on having tomorrow. Any advice you guys have is much appreciated! Thanks in advance ;)
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=139813.0
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5-meo-amt and 5-meo-mipt.
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5-meo-amt and 5-meo-mipt.
What are these like? Please feel free to elaborate ;D
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erowid.org is your friend!
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erowid.org is your friend!
Truer words haven't been spoken. That is a resource years in the making and it's irresponsible to not put it to use. There has been a lot of hard work/experiences put in to that place.
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mxe!