Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: SeriousChemistry on June 13, 2012, 06:25 pm
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I talked to a PhD in biochemistry today and he said, that it is not so easy to find out what kind of molecules a substance contains. You can test it, if you have a number of possible contained molecules (e.g. You're testing a pill and of course you run some tests to check explicitly if there is MDMA in the pill.)
I didn't want to go further with my questions mainly because he's a fellow student (yes, and already PhD in biochemistry ;)), but how can organizations like "checkit!" tell us in a few minutes, what kind of substances e.g. a pill contains?
Any chemists in here? ;) Or anybody else who knows this?
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My drug contains love and essence of peppermint.
Oh and 25i-NBOme and HPBCD...but those aren't the active ingredients.
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It's indeed difficult to identify a substance definitively.
However, being the curious primates that we are, we've slightly improved from the traditional methods of testing by shoving unknown substances in our mouths, noses, and anuses.
... Well at least some of us have.
For the layperson, there exist a variety of methods to more accurately identify the components of an unknown substance. At the most basic level, solubility and melting point tests can provide some information. As many of us are already aware, there exist testing kits available for purchase to the general public which can help narrow down what the substance can be. These popular testing reagents are:
Marquis
Mandelin
Mecke
Simons
Robadope
At a more advanced level, technologies such as GC/MS (gas chromatography / mass spectrometry) can help us learn even more, but even they cannot provide definitive data. Services exist which can (with a bit of scrutiny) reveal at least the ratios of !some! chemicals in your sample.
Even if you always wear a condom, it won't guarantee you won't get a call from baby mama one morning.
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Home checking is pretty much limited to reagent kits and maybe UV or IR spectroscopy (they are about 1000 on ebay so not cheap but not like NMR) for the determined but even the more advanced methods there wouldn't give a definitive answer just allow you to narrow it down, a similar analogue of your drug of choice would be difficult to pick out.
As for the big labs, I suppose they would maybe seperate substances with coloumn chromatography then run them through UV/IR spectoscopy, follwed by H1NMR if they were still unsure. That will likely be as far as it goes (assuming it gets as far as NMR) but its possible to use X-ray diffraction. Thats pretty definitive but not very realistic :p
There are of course more extensive methods but since they are testing drugs cut with milk powder and dog worming tablets the screening doesn't need to be very subtle.
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I graduated in biochemistry, and i'll assure you it will be very difficult to determine what is in a tablet using equipment available under, say, $1000.
There are several goals you can have when investigating a tablet (or powder, etc):
- Determine presence of active substance, at all
Drug detection kits as used by law enforcement are reasonably effective here, unless someone was trying to fool you by adding another substance that does trigger the test, but is not biologically active. None of these tests are reliable in detecting the amount of substance though - a 10 mg mdma tablet would test just as positive as a 200 mg one.
- Determine the presence of unwanted (cutting) agents
Similar tests exist that could, for example, determine if an unwanted substance like caffeine, paracetamol or atropine is present in a sample. Again, no concentration can be concluded so even a small contamination could render a positive on such a test.
In order to do reliable analysis on composition more advanced equipment is really required. You could use a HPLC system with a UV/VIS detector and/or a GC/MS system to get very good information on what is present in a sample, and also in what concentration within a reasonable margin of error (say 10%).
Prices for these systems new would start at 100k for the hplc system, probably close to a million for the gc/ms. Sometimes outdated systems are sold surplus though, and can be had a bargain. A hplc system would probably be most attractive in that case since its operating costs aren't that high. You can do very good analytical work on really old equipment too - a 1970s hplc system with uv/vis detector would easily suffice to determine the nature and concentration of many substances.
Systems like NMR or X-ray crystallography will not be very useful i think: In these tests we know what we are looking for, not trying to discover the composition of unknown components in the sample. Especially mass spectrometry would be very useful for validation purposes: The combination of a known retention time and mass spectrum would be very strong proof of a substance present. Creating a substance that would fake these test results would most likely be far, far more expensive then supplying the wanted substance.
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Damn entropy :/
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You should aim to get HNMR/HPLC/GC-MS software.
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i said this in a previous post but il say it again...this post is why i left bluelight and are veery glad i found deep web...and silk road...the question posted is why im scared to buy from just any vendor there was a scare in my town ppl were getting doa or doi i think it was on blotters and it was portrayed as lsd...one of my big fears is getting a cpl doses and its not safe tested understood on everything from reuptake to biotoxicity and bioavailabilty...im terrified to get a dose of something as powerful potentially as ayahuasca with an amphetamine analog added and no im not a chemist but i dont believe in goin into any situation blind i hope to find a compassionate and understanding vendor and the cost to test just about anything as far as i know is astronomical...im waiting for cervical fusion surgery and i cant afford 1000 bucks to be safe...nor can i afford to take something im not sure of..i dont take psychedelics for fun..im 34 years old and my body is falling apart but my mind is fine and there are doors ive opened and cant sit by w/ them cracked..its great to see this community aint just about how can i sell what to who and that there are ppl on here who give a damn about harm reduction and education...not to say the vendors and vendor discussions aint needed its just nice a lil bit of caring or concern for other if not but by proxy...i ramble if ppl will listen...please and ty for yalls time and the good question to respond to
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i said this in a previous post but il say it again...this post is why i left bluelight and are veery glad i found deep web...and silk road...the question posted is why im scared to buy from just any vendor there was a scare in my town ppl were getting doa or doi i think it was on blotters and it was portrayed as lsd...one of my big fears is getting a cpl doses and its not safe tested understood on everything from reuptake to biotoxicity and bioavailabilty...im terrified to get a dose of something as powerful potentially as ayahuasca with an amphetamine analog added and no im not a chemist but i dont believe in goin into any situation blind i hope to find a compassionate and understanding vendor and the cost to test just about anything as far as i know is astronomical...im waiting for cervical fusion surgery and i cant afford 1000 bucks to be safe...nor can i afford to take something im not sure of..i dont take psychedelics for fun..im 34 years old and my body is falling apart but my mind is fine and there are doors ive opened and cant sit by w/ them cracked..its great to see this community aint just about how can i sell what to who and that there are ppl on here who give a damn about harm reduction and education...not to say the vendors and vendor discussions aint needed its just nice a lil bit of caring or concern for other if not but by proxy...i ramble if ppl will listen...please and ty for yalls time and the good question to respond to
Kudos for leaving Bluelight, that place is just full of arrogant cunts who just try to out smart-arse-comment each other. Been to that site once after reading about it on here, was on there 10 mins, never been back.
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As much as I love to hate on bluelight, bluelight and drugs-forum are the only places for decent information about RCs. I wouldn't have found out about NBOmes if it weren't for bluelight.
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Oh yeah they know their shit but they are just act like a bunch of whores simply because they know their shit. It's just an ego battle-royale that just makes me picture two lab geeks sitting in the same room talking two each other and giving each other death looks and then when they make a point they get to walk across the room and cum on the opposing geeks face (in particular the stereotypical geek specs).
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Ahh your just to late! The Forensic Science Service in the UK was shut down and was selling and HPLC for about 15,000 in public auctions. There was a GC/MS but that was going for 350K or there abouts.
Your probably right Ben but surely with an NMR spectra you can at least take a shot at the skeleton (I have used it in conjunction with IR spectroscopy to identify an unknown compund that came out along with my product. In that case I was able to pretty easily work out what it was but my point is that if you are analysing a sample I would hope to have some idea what I was looking for - if I want to check the purity of my meth I'll be looking for the amphetamine backbone (if they have cut it with an analogue that will cause problems but I don't think that happens all that often :p).
Obviously (as you point out) an MS would be a much easier way to get a pretty damn definitive answer without messing around with liquid helium and giant electromagnets.
I graduated in biochemistry, and i'll assure you it will be very difficult to determine what is in a tablet using equipment available under, say, $1000.
There are several goals you can have when investigating a tablet (or powder, etc):
- Determine presence of active substance, at all
Drug detection kits as used by law enforcement are reasonably effective here, unless someone was trying to fool you by adding another substance that does trigger the test, but is not biologically active. None of these tests are reliable in detecting the amount of substance though - a 10 mg mdma tablet would test just as positive as a 200 mg one.
- Determine the presence of unwanted (cutting) agents
Similar tests exist that could, for example, determine if an unwanted substance like caffeine, paracetamol or atropine is present in a sample. Again, no concentration can be concluded so even a small contamination could render a positive on such a test.
In order to do reliable analysis on composition more advanced equipment is really required. You could use a HPLC system with a UV/VIS detector and/or a GC/MS system to get very good information on what is present in a sample, and also in what concentration within a reasonable margin of error (say 10%).
Prices for these systems new would start at 100k for the hplc system, probably close to a million for the gc/ms. Sometimes outdated systems are sold surplus though, and can be had a bargain. A hplc system would probably be most attractive in that case since its operating costs aren't that high. You can do very good analytical work on really old equipment too - a 1970s hplc system with uv/vis detector would easily suffice to determine the nature and concentration of many substances.
Systems like NMR or X-ray crystallography will not be very useful i think: In these tests we know what we are looking for, not trying to discover the composition of unknown components in the sample. Especially mass spectrometry would be very useful for validation purposes: The combination of a known retention time and mass spectrum would be very strong proof of a substance present. Creating a substance that would fake these test results would most likely be far, far more expensive then supplying the wanted substance.
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I would say GC/MS is far superior for this application, especially since there are known mass spectra for virtually all drugs, and for many cutting agents as well.
Using NMR would require that you first split the sample into pure components using preparative hplc (or even gc), and then analyze the components one at a time, by hand, in the nmr machine. This would only be useful if you wanted to know the structure of a component, and no reference mass spectrum is available.
NMR is very unpractical too - even a decades old 300MHz machine will fill a decent size bedroom with the computer console that comes with it. Add to that the need to constantly replenish cryogenic liquids and the power requirements for energizing the magnet (good luck on household mains) and it quickly adds up to something very elaborate. Putting it in your house may also not be overly practical due to the magnetic field, especially on floors below and above the machine.
A GC/MS unit suitable for drug analysis is a different beast: The whole thing, GC and quadrupole detector, would probably fit on a 2x1 meter desk space, run off normal mains power, and only require the supply of helium gas, which can be shut off when not in use.
Even getting a basic hplc with uv/vis detector would be very useful though. It will probably not help you to identify the structure of any unexpected component, but you assert the desired substance is there, and its also fairly quantitative if you have a good detector. 15k wouldn't be a bad price for a well working system, as long as it comes with usable columns - those can be quite expensive too.
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A GC/MS would be the ultimate toy to have in your living room
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I wouldn't call it a toy, but its the best system you could get that would realistically fit a living room ;)
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Sticking to weed means your not concerned with wanting too know the molecular structure!
If you know how its grown and how its dried and then cured then all is well.
Other drugs, I just look for reviews in the forums off certain people who are VERY clued up on certain products.
Even if you got some $1000 test to check out the drug you use its history as the next batch is in.
I wash coke and speed. Might wash the mdma also but not sure how.
I would love to have checks done on THC content of weeds I smoke and hash and oil but to be honest its just detail - if its a good smoke its a good smoke, One toke of weed says more than a scientist and a lab sometimes. He can say its 17& THC but does it give the munchies?
Good thread.
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I would say GC/MS is far superior for this application, especially since there are known mass spectra for virtually all drugs, and for many cutting agents as well.
Using NMR would require that you first split the sample into pure components using preparative hplc (or even gc), and then analyze the components one at a time, by hand, in the nmr machine. This would only be useful if you wanted to know the structure of a component, and no reference mass spectrum is available.
NMR is very unpractical too - even a decades old 300MHz machine will fill a decent size bedroom with the computer console that comes with it. Add to that the need to constantly replenish cryogenic liquids and the power requirements for energizing the magnet (good luck on household mains) and it quickly adds up to something very elaborate. Putting it in your house may also not be overly practical due to the magnetic field, especially on floors below and above the machine.
A GC/MS unit suitable for drug analysis is a different beast: The whole thing, GC and quadrupole detector, would probably fit on a 2x1 meter desk space, run off normal mains power, and only require the supply of helium gas, which can be shut off when not in use.
Even getting a basic hplc with uv/vis detector would be very useful though. It will probably not help you to identify the structure of any unexpected component, but you assert the desired substance is there, and its also fairly quantitative if you have a good detector. 15k wouldn't be a bad price for a well working system, as long as it comes with usable columns - those can be quite expensive too.
lol I wasn't thinking of someone having an NMR machine in their house! My thought was that the structure determination would be useful for those odd bits you may well find in a drug sample. I don't have much experience with GC/MS but for home detection it looks like that would be the gold standard.
Now if only we could convince SR to buy one and analyse random samples from vendors and post the results, that would be a service worth paying a little extra for.
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I would say GC/MS is far superior for this application, especially since there are known mass spectra for virtually all drugs, and for many cutting agents as well.
Using NMR would require that you first split the sample into pure components using preparative hplc (or even gc), and then analyze the components one at a time, by hand, in the nmr machine. This would only be useful if you wanted to know the structure of a component, and no reference mass spectrum is available.
NMR is very unpractical too - even a decades old 300MHz machine will fill a decent size bedroom with the computer console that comes with it. Add to that the need to constantly replenish cryogenic liquids and the power requirements for energizing the magnet (good luck on household mains) and it quickly adds up to something very elaborate. Putting it in your house may also not be overly practical due to the magnetic field, especially on floors below and above the machine.
A GC/MS unit suitable for drug analysis is a different beast: The whole thing, GC and quadrupole detector, would probably fit on a 2x1 meter desk space, run off normal mains power, and only require the supply of helium gas, which can be shut off when not in use.
Even getting a basic hplc with uv/vis detector would be very useful though. It will probably not help you to identify the structure of any unexpected component, but you assert the desired substance is there, and its also fairly quantitative if you have a good detector. 15k wouldn't be a bad price for a well working system, as long as it comes with usable columns - those can be quite expensive too.
lol I wasn't thinking of someone having an NMR machine in their house! My thought was that the structure determination would be useful for those odd bits you may well find in a drug sample. I don't have much experience with GC/MS but for home detection it looks like that would be the gold standard.
Now if only we could convince SR to buy one and analyse random samples from vendors and post the results, that would be a service worth paying a little extra for.
Maybe if you were willing to pay $500 per test in order to pay for the $15,000 machine.
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There is another technique we haven't really discussed before, but that is also compact, relatively cheap, and could be useful: IR Spectroscopy.
To give you an idea what you can do, see this composite of the spectra for diazepam, alprazolam, clonazepam, and paracetamol as a completely different substance for reference:
http://www.picsafe.org/?v=U93dp.jpg (vertical axis in AU, scaled to keep the spectra seperated a bit).
As you can see it you clearly tell keto benzo's apart from the others by the peak circled green. This easily tells apart, for example, diazepam from alprazolam. The more structurally similar diazepam and clonazepam can also be clearly told apart by the sharp peak at ~8800 nm.
Just to get an idea i added caffeine to the graph as it is a totally different substance and commonly available for testing - the spectrum is so different highlighting useful peaks that tell it apart is useless.
A IR spectrometer isn't any good for analyzing mixtures, but can certainly be used to verify what substance is in a tablet or powder. Used 'modern' (FTIR) units are $5000 or so, and sample preparation is easy. The real upside is that older, analog models are often thrown out of universities and can be had a real bargain.
Also, these spectrometers are very compact: about the size of a tower case computer put on its side.
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Is that so? I had steered clear of mentioning IR as I was told that it was good for identifying functional group changes but due to the relative lack of clear information about the carbon skeleton was more useful in conjection with something else like GC/MS or NMR. though that could be that I have the context wrong. If you are looking to confirm the presence of a substance it would be good though the only qualitative information would be from the clarity of the spectra.
Foxy - why $500? why not give the option to pay 10 or something over a much longer scale? or let people pay a percentage of any given sale they make...or something.
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Good resolution IR spectra tell a great deal more than just what functional groups are present. Just like with NMR, the exact composition alters the frequency responses of groups located on the skeleton nearby. The IR spectrum is often a pretty good fingerprint to identify a known substance. It's not very useful to investigate structure for unknown components, but as long as your sample is pure, it makes for a useful tool.
Sample preparation is an issue though - you cannot just grind down a tablet and analyse that, extracting the substance to be investigated is essential. With drugs like benzo's this can be done with chloroform extraction from ground tablets. Its mostly a matter of getting the benzo in the chloroform layer, and the rest as solid perciptate or dissolved in the watery phase.
IR would not be much use to check drugs like cannabis or opium that contain a number of substances that aren't easily separated. You really need the chromatography step for that, leaving only HPLC and GC/MS.
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Wow guys, thank you very much for your answers! It was really interesting and revealing, even if I didn't understand everything as I am not graduated yet, but still at the beginning of my studies.
I like to combine the effects of drugs with a scientific component. I am just not that stupid buying something (and with something I don't mean natural drugs like weed or so, which one you can identify easily, but more the chemical drugs, MDMA or so) from a random unknown street dealer and doing it without knowledge of the ingredients. Before I get that far, I'd rather abstain.
That's why I am so interested in knowing this stuff asked in the first post. As a (future) scientist, I think people should pay more attention on their health. A lot of drugs aren't that dangerous like the government says (even if they aren't harmless of course), if you take them wisely and carefully. This is my opinion.
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A part of the danger comes from the lack of government oversight because these substances are illegal. If you were to buy a 500 mg tablet of paracetamol (generic, from pharmacy, drugstore or supermarket), you can be quite certain that it contains no more or less then 500 mg as this is checked by the FDA or foreign equivalent.
With illicit drugs this control has to be done by the buyer really, which results in the need for expensive equipment to be reasonably certain something actually contains what the seller says it does. A reputation system like that on SR will probably point out blatant fakes (no active substance, different active substance) over time, but its not nearly as stringent or reliable.
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My word, sir!