Silk Road forums

Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: kingpinirl on July 02, 2012, 07:22 pm

Title: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: kingpinirl on July 02, 2012, 07:22 pm
Hey guys-
I'm a "casual" user of benzos.  Typically, using when coming off opiates.  I always have a stash on hand, and sometimes take 1mg a day for weeks.  I've never encountered any sort of w/drawl from them, and hear that they are the worst thing on the planet. 

I know that every body is different, but how often/how much benzos does it take to become physically dependent upon them?  I'd like to avoid it :)
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: gtgeorgz on July 02, 2012, 07:40 pm
also would like to find this out. - I've been taking 1mg when smoking weed recently, most have gone through 4/5 last week. giving it a break now though, haven't felt any withdrawal or urge to take some so far. But i shall report back if i notice anything :)
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: Delta11 on July 02, 2012, 07:46 pm
It depends on the person so for some it might take months and for others it might take weeks. I would still slow down on the benzos though and only use them when absolutely needed. Also, keeping your doses low will lessen your chances of getting withdrawals.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: Ben on July 03, 2012, 12:58 am
1 mg a day of what benzo exaclty? alprazolam?

In case it is alprazolam, tolerance to the hypnotic effects will build quite quickly, probably in the order of weeks, and you will have some withdrawal symptoms after it has. Tolerance to the anyxiolytic properties seems to develop much more slowly (if at all) though, so it seems to be important what the main function is when you are 'coming down'.

Benzodiazepine dependence can be a bit odd though: Its not that you feel craving them like you would a cigarette or opiate, but more that you get symptoms like anxiety worse then you had them before the whole ordeal started.

If you ever get to that stage, tapering off dosage is recommended over stopping at once. If you were to stop suddenly the symptoms could become unbearable (especially anxiety) and require treatment that could go as far as hospitalization. Tapering off over the course of a month or so prevents such severe side effects. If you are using 1 mg xanax a day, take it down at a rate of 0.75 the next week, 0.5 the week after that and so forth untill you reach ineffective dosages of 0.25mg a day or so.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: weedsaves on July 03, 2012, 05:57 pm
Had a friend get some pretty uncomfortable withdrawals after probably 2mg alprazolam/day for 2-3 weeks. He was ordering it from Pakistan or something so maybe it was shit quality.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: kingpinirl on July 03, 2012, 07:04 pm
Ben,

+1 to  you

Thank you for your well thought out reply.  Yes, xanax, 1mg at night for the past week or so.  I think I'm good, just don't want to push it.  I'll take a half tonight, quarter tomorrow and next day and see if I have any adverse effects.  Thanks for your concern as well.  Benzo's aren't a road I want to travel.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: Ben on July 04, 2012, 12:35 am
You are welcome, but i would suggest tapering down a tad more slowly.

If you have been taking 1 mg/day for several weeks, i'd suggest something like 0.75 mg a day for 5 days, 0.5 for the next 5, and 0.25 for the 5 after that. The latter may or may not be an effective dose any more, but just the idea of taking some will probably help to prevent withdrawal, as there is a mental component to it as well.

The idea is mostly to prevent getting -any- adverse effects. Quitting too quickly can in some cases bring back or even induce symptoms like panic or anxiety, which are detrimental to successful withdrawal.

Unless you are in a hurry to quit for some reason, take it slow... your brain will need time to adjust to the lower levels, which can easily take a week for halving the dose. Suffering a withdrawal effect is likely to make you take a full dose again, which basically means starting from scratch.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: smokeweed420 on July 16, 2012, 07:41 am
taking them every day, after 1 week its hard to sleep and after 2 weeks you actually get full blown withdrawls. but dont be fooled. this isnt as bad as its going to get. it continues to get way worse to the point of having seizures without them.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: TheBusiness on July 16, 2012, 12:36 pm
Seizures? Yeh, fuck that.

I've had the odd quarter / half xanax here and there for a comedown / leisure. Even then I quickly feel like popping another for kicks but I hold off. Feels nice but I just don't function at a level I'd like to.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: StickAFinger on July 16, 2012, 04:41 pm
i will honestly say, it can come on rather quickly

me and a buddy of mine bought a shit ton of quality bars and serbia 1mg balls off 2 great vendors and i got carried away

in 2 to  2 and a half weeks i started off with 1mg...to 2mg spread in the evening and at night...then to 3mg....and i noticed at like...the 13th day that if i didnt have it even in my fucking pocket i got anxious..further more i asked my buddy how much he did and he was like he only had like 5mg total..and i was like...fuck..im taking this almost for no reason..so i stopped..felt a little anxious but..holy fuck...i think i was toying with a bad addiction..i do get anxiety here and there because of work related reasons, natural but i over compensated with my stash of xanax..so id say, to each's own...but not really...xanax can be habit forming for realsss

so now i havent taken it for like 5 days and im planning on respecting it and taking it coming off of stims/mdma/trips or real anxiety.

recreational use for this is just odd, and i got carried a way just a smidget.

best
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: happertand on July 22, 2012, 01:20 pm
a Conversation I had with a friend made me to create an Excel spreadsheet detailing my intake of Benzo's.
I knew of the withdrawal symptoms associated with them but I actually thought I was managing it well (like 5mg/week but I'd skip two maybe even three consecutive days so one day 2mg, two days later 1mg and so on)
and she told me that it can be very habit forming no matter how you take it. So by that logic, you can said to be a habitual user
if you take it say once a month?

The other night I took only 0.5mg of Xanax and I felt surprisingly pretty nice! It made me think anything more than 1mg of Xanax is wasteful and only serves to the detriment of it being recreational.

I love Benzo's so much that I force myself to detox from them (even up to a week at a time) just so I build up no tollerance to them but I also read in the literature that your brain can rearrange itself
in accordance with the use of Benzo's in long term use so I will have to stop at some time, I just don't know when!
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: Mashman on July 26, 2012, 03:56 pm
I have been fully addicted to both temazepam and Xanax (on two different occasions). Xanax tolerance shot up very quickly like started feeling mild wds after a week and a half. I was taking like 3 a day or sum thing. Definitely need to taper with benzos, try switching to a longer lasting benzo like vallies, that's how I got off them both times.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: Ben on August 24, 2012, 12:24 am
Switching to a longer lasting substance like old fashioned valium may certainly be helpful when quitting - the biological half life of that is roughly 2 days including metabolites, reducing withdrawal problems as well as possible.

When it comes down to pure anxiety though, its important to note that xanax and valium are not drugs that can be swapped that easily. As far as the sedative properties go they are very comparable, but the anxiolytic properties of xanax are superior that of an equal dose of valium. If you are taking them to treat anxiety tapering off the dose of xanax would be preferable to swapping to a longer lasting benzo that has a more sedative profile. Doing the latter will reduce withdrawal symptoms, but also allow the original anxiety to return unexpectedly.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: 34trimethoxy on August 24, 2012, 01:05 am
I've been taking an average of 1mg xanax for the last 3 or 4 months. I don't suffer any W/D symptoms.

All I experience is a tick, or shake of my body when I don't have them. This happens regardless though, and I don't think it's cause of the benzos.

I personally never experienced benzo withdrawal, and have taken many for long periods of time over the years. Not saying it doesn't exist.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: Holly on August 24, 2012, 02:35 am
Had a friend get some pretty uncomfortable withdrawals after probably 2mg alprazolam/day for 2-3 weeks. He was ordering it from Pakistan or something so maybe it was shit quality.

I don't think quality is a key issue here, it's the same with most high dose benzo habits.  You can't just suddenly stop taking them, you have to ween them off.  I only use xanax for coming off of stims or MDMA and it serves its nonharmful purpose well ;)   I couldn't imagine being hooked on this shit, that would suck.  Benzo WD's are the worst.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: Delta11 on August 24, 2012, 02:42 am
Had a friend get some pretty uncomfortable withdrawals after probably 2mg alprazolam/day for 2-3 weeks. He was ordering it from Pakistan or something so maybe it was shit quality.

I don't think quality is a key issue here, it's the same with most high dose benzo habits.  You can't just suddenly stop taking them, you have to ween them off.  I only use xanax for coming off of stims or MDMA and it serves its nonharmful purpose well ;)   I couldn't imagine being hooked on this shit, that would suck.  Benzo WD's are the worst.
Apparently Benzo WD's are the worst in the drug world, it sucks too because I actually take xanax as a medication but the good thing I like about it is that you can always just ween off of it. Since I use it as a medication I never go over 1mg/day so I still have yet to experience any withdrawal symptoms but I feel like if you use it for recreational use you're more likely prone (I know someone that's in rehab because they hit 6mg/day)

2mg would knock me out, just saying.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: Phil198022 on August 24, 2012, 12:23 pm
I think I can contribute a bit from my own experience here. I'm basically a recovering functional alcoholic, meaning as a college student I started drinking excessively to cope with personal issues. After drinking for about 3 years or so I started to become physically addicted to alcohol, meaning I had withdrawal symptoms after binge drinking, which turned more severe over time, ranging from trembling to sweating to panic attacks to dizziness, luckily i never had a seizure. Then I started taking benzos, which when I first discovered them I kind of saw as a miracle drug, since I could drink as much as I wanted and then the next day just pop a diazepam and experience no physical withdrawal from alcohol anymore, so on my destructive behaviour went. Then I graduated from college, started working full time and my old lifestyle just didn't work anymore, i.e. you can't drink yourself into a stupor and do effective academic white collar work the next morning, so recently I basically quit alcohol. This year I've maybe been drunk 5-10 times the entire year and that only during the holidays (before maybe 100-200 times a year), I never went through any kind of clinical detox program, but just quit on my own with the help of benzos which I gradually tapered off over time.

Since I've also taken benzos irregulary for the last years (sometimes none for days, sometimes large amounts like 100 mg Diazepam at once, typically when trying to sleep after an excessive stimulant hi) I also experienced benzo withdrawal. In my experience the withdrawal is quite similar to that of alcohol, you probably have to take them for a longer time to get serious physical withdrawal symptoms when you quit cold turkey. In my case withdrawal symptoms came quickly, because of my previous alcohol history I had developed a kind of cross tolerance with alcohol and benzos both working on the GABA receptors. When you have benzo withdrawal just quitting all at once is basically hell (can even be life threatening), much more dangerous than heroin withdrawal for example. On the other hand I never found it very difficult to taper them off, since the addiction is physical rather than mental. Once there is no physical withdrawal anymore I don't feel any strong psychological urge to take them again, like they don't make you happy and euphoric like mentally addictive drugs. I still take benzos regularly, since I also like to take stimulants like amphetamine and need them to sleep afterwards. After I have taken them I just taper them off over the next days which seems to work without problems.

If you are physically addicted in my experience it's not difficult to taper them off with long-lasting benzos (like diazepam), let's say you have taken 50 mg Diazepam a day for a couple of days, just slowly reduce and in my experience you won't have a difficult withdrawal: Like 50mg the first day, 40 mg the second, 30 mg the third etc. and within 2 weeks or so you should be free of them. At least that's worked for me so far.

Important is that benzos are one drug you really CAN'T withdraw cold turkey if you've developed a habit, sudden physical withdrawal is awful and can even be life threatening, so in case you feel you may have an addiction be sure to keep a supply for when you want to withdraw to help you during that process.

Also in my experience the higher the dosage and the longer you take that dosage the longer it also takes to taper off again, basically like alcohol too.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: Ben on August 25, 2012, 12:41 am
100 mg of diazepam in a single day is a really large dose. Clinically, more then 30 mg/day is ever prescribed, and that is for extreme anxiety, muscle spasms and similar serious conditions. Considering its long half life, taking 100 mg diazepam a day for several days in a row will build up to concentration comparable to 200-300 mg in a single dose (or 20-30 mg alprazolam equivalent).

Large doses of benzodiazepines on their own are not that dangerous however - as long as you are not combining them with alcohol or other drugs, amounts of 100 mg diazepam may just make you drowsy, dizzy and fall asleep. Even idiotic doses like 1 gram are not deadly per se, though hospitalization is probably required to sustain breathing. There is little reason to take doses that large though - if you just want a cool down and/or a good nights sleep, a dose of 10 to 20 mg diazepam will probably suffice, and taking much more will not contribute much to its immediate effect.

As for withdrawal: quitting them cold turkey is definitely not a good idea if you have been taking them for any serious amount of time (weeks or more). The effects are mostly not life threatening, but things like panic attacks, insomnia, feeling jittery and such are common and unpleasant when withdrawing too rapidly. Most of these symptoms are exactly the ones benzodiazepines are prescribed for, but can come when you least expect them when quitting. Obviously the consequences can be pretty serious - having a panic attack or muscle spasm in itself will not kill you at all, but having one while cruising along the highway can end badly.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: treeline on August 26, 2012, 02:54 am
nothing terribly new to add, just that i've been through the withdrawals and they SUCK.  before i knew anything about the physiological dependence you can develop with benzos, my doctor prescribed them as a sleep aid after my dad passed away.  i took them every night to help me sleep - it was the only way i could fall asleep because otherwise, my mind was stuck in a loop of worries & compulsions.

they helped me sleep.  i loved it.  i could sleep at night and be wide awake, rested-feeling, and totally non-sedated the next day at college.

eventually when i tried to stop taking them (remember, i still didn't understand benzos well at that point), i couldn't sleep at all and felt sick with anxiety .... so i'd start taking them again just so i could sleep at night.

later, i started seeing a psychiatrist for the first time in my life and she experimented with various drug combos on me, always keeping my benzo dose the same.  when none of the treatments worked at relieving any of my depression or anxiety, she, being a professor at a teaching hospital school, recommended that i try shock therapy in their study trial.

i agreed - stupidly, but desperate to get relief from my crippling depression.

for the trial, i had to be in the hospital for 5 days and they did the shock therapy every other day. 

however, to obtain the best data, they made me stop taking benzos over a period of one week.  this was not good.  i felt like such shit physically and emotionally.  i knew by this time that tapering off of them was necessary, but that wasn't an option and the doctors assured me it didn't matter. 

bullshit!

they finally agreed to giving me a small sliver of a short-lived benzo to deal with the withdrawal ... and every time i got that little shard of benzo, my physical symptoms and some emotional ones would ease up.

it would wear off and i'd be back at the bottom of a dark, dark hole.

i felt physically sick all the time, couldn't stop crying, couldn't eat, had all kinds of physical pains/issues, couldn't sleep, developed tremors all over, etc.

this went on for probably a month, though at some point it started to improve every day. 

i've been off completely for almost 2 years now, and i refuse ever to start again.  if i even took benzos for one or two nights now, i'd have withdrawal symptoms.  simply can't use them again safely.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: TurnItOffAndOnAgain on August 26, 2012, 04:49 am
As for withdrawal: quitting them cold turkey is definitely not a good idea if you have been taking them for any serious amount of time (weeks or more). The effects are mostly not life threatening, but things like panic attacks, insomnia, feeling jittery and such are common and unpleasant when withdrawing too rapidly. Most of these symptoms are exactly the ones benzodiazepines are prescribed for, but can come when you least expect them when quitting. Obviously the consequences can be pretty serious - having a panic attack or muscle spasm in itself will not kill you at all, but having one while cruising along the highway can end badly.
+1 everything Ben is saying.
Cold turkey can be life threatening though, if it causes a seizure and you have no one around to help you. This is most serious when quitting from high doses. Always taper! I have been addicted to Clonazepam and did a cross-taper with Diazepam as suggested by Dr. Ashton (Ashton-Manual). Worked for me, but was very unpleasant. It has been mentioned that most often there is no psychological addiction, no craving. I can confirm this. The high doses you mentioned are often reached by using very potent Benzodiazepines like Clonazepam 2mg (equivalent to 40mg Diazepam). From there it is only a small step to 3mg, 4mg and it spirals out of control very quickly! Unless you have severe Anxiety, don't use benzos, they are just not worth the risk!
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: Mashman on August 26, 2012, 03:13 pm
Does anyone who like me has been physically addicted to benzos have experience with getting back on them and maintaining a non addictive relationship with them?
Im starting again to hav problems sleeping and really need em for comedowns and shit but im really worried about starting up again.
During my withdrawals i had no psychological desire to do them it was just the physical side which is why i think i might be alright. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: Cozmo on August 26, 2012, 04:20 pm
I went to my doctor, he said if you have been taking them for more than 3 months expect the withdrawal side effects to hit ALOT harder than previously anticipated. So if you are taking them everyday for the past 3 months, might think about taking some melatonin for the next month cause shit can get pretty harsh.
Pretty much what everyone here is saying, paradoxical effects i.e. insonmia etc. is spot on but for a given time frame every day for 3 months, try tapering off in a week and melatonin is the best bet.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: Ben on August 27, 2012, 12:33 am
It has been mentioned that most often there is no psychological addiction, no craving. I can confirm this. The high doses you mentioned are often reached by using very potent Benzodiazepines like Clonazepam 2mg (equivalent to 40mg Diazepam). From there it is only a small step to 3mg, 4mg and it spirals out of control very quickly! Unless you have severe Anxiety, don't use benzos, they are just not worth the risk!

The lack of craving is a bit of an odd thing with benzo's. Unlike quitting smoking or drinking, you usually do not crave another dose at all, just suffer the withdrawal symptoms without grasping for another tablet even if you have it readily available. Obviously you will find out that taking some will relieve symptoms at some point and use that as the solution, but that's more a think that you consciously learn then anything else.

I think its also very important to choose the right benzodiazepine for a given situation. If you only have problems falling asleep, consider something short acting and narcotic like nitrazepam. If you want to prevent a panic attack, taking something like alprazolam may be the best choice since its also relatively short acting and can help you though a situation without any longer lasting effects.

Diazepam is indicated for structural anxiety or muscle spasms, not for the treatment of insomnia or occasional anxiety. It will work very well for both conditions, but considering its long half life (and building up in your system when taken daily) it should not be the drug of choice.

Where anxiety is the main problem alprazolam would probably be the benzo of choice: tolerance to the hypnotic effects will certainly develop, but so far there is little evidence tolerance ever develops against the anxiolytic properties. Nowadays doctors will often opt to prescribe SSRI's for anxiety, but considering their side effects it may be more pleasant to stick with alprazolam long term: While SSRI's are less addictive, your quality of life can be far superior on alprazolam - as long as you know you will not be able to quit taking it on the short term.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: GoldenArm on August 27, 2012, 12:44 pm
I was addicted to benzos a few years ago - it was awful.  I was getting a month's supply at a time (alprazolam and temazepam) ripping through them in a week, then going through withdrawal, till I could fill the next script.  Eventually I got off that vicious cycle and I stayed away from any benzos  for a long time. 

Since discovering SR I have been cautiously taking small amounts to help me sleep.or come off stims  I ran out a week or so ago, and haven't got around to reordering yet. I haven't experienced any withdrawal symptoms (for me, increased anxiety and really vivid strange dreams).   I am very aware of the risk of getting addicted again. 

 
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: EddieStrike on August 27, 2012, 08:15 pm
My body gets addicted to benzoes after 3-4 uses, this isn't normal right?

Anyone have some idea what's wrong with me?

I only take 1 benzo tablet once per week (max), to avoid the horrible withdrawals.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: Mashman on August 27, 2012, 08:32 pm
My body gets addicted to benzoes after 3-4 uses, this isn't normal right?

Anyone have some idea what's wrong with me?

I only take 1 benzo tablet once per week (max), to avoid the horrible withdrawals.

How addicted? Like the shakes or inability to sleep.
Severe wds wouldnt be normal but heightened anxiety or difficulty sleeping could be.
Title: Re: How often does one need to take benzos to get withdrawls?
Post by: Ben on August 27, 2012, 11:36 pm
Getting withdrawal after using them for a few days is not normal. But is it possible you are confusing the return of symptoms you took them for for withdrawal?

If you were, for example, suffering from anxiety, and took an alprazolam, that could alleviate the symptoms for as long as it works (perhaps a workday), but once its metabolized and excreted, the original symptoms will simply recur. 

Withdrawal usually means you will get symptoms you did not have before starting the medication. If you were, for example, taking benzo's to help you sleep but get panic attacks when quitting them (which you did not suffer from before taking them as a sleep aid) that'd be considered a withdrawal symptom. If you insomnia returns that is just the expected consequence of stopping treatment, just like your blood pressure will rise again quickly if you stop taking medication prescribed to lower it.