Silk Road forums
Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: GGGreenbud on September 13, 2013, 06:42 am
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I know I sure do. Does anyone else think we have a right to do psychedelics
as part of our religious freedom? is it not a gross injustice that world governments
place these relatively harmless compounds in the same category as hard drugs?
I like my hard drugs as much as the next guy, but I sincerely believe that mushrooms,
LSD, Mescaline, DMT and all naturally occurring drugs are sacred, they evolved to
trigger a thought-provoking and spiritual experience, by the planet and a creator,
if you believe in one. I'm not leaving out the synthetics here, they can be seen
as the modern version of an ancient tradition, going back before history.
So who is with me? Start chanting! Join the mushroom cult!
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I know I sure do. Does anyone else think we have a right to do psychedelics
as part of our religious freedom? is it not a gross injustice that world governments
place these relatively harmless compounds in the same category as hard drugs?
I like my hard drugs as much as the next guy, but I sincerely believe that mushrooms,
LSD, Mescaline, DMT and all naturally occurring drugs are sacred, they evolved to
trigger a thought-provoking and spiritual experience, by the planet and a creator,
if you believe in one. I'm not leaving out the synthetics here, they can be seen
as the modern version of an ancient tradition, going back before history.
So who is with me? Start chanting! Join the mushroom cult!
I'd drink any kool-aid not supplied by Jim Jones ;-)
I wouldn't go as far as to say "they evolved to trigger a thought-provoking and spiritual experience, by the planet and a creator", since I do not see that kind of intent in the universe, and don't subscribe to the idea of a creator or guiding hand. Evolution in as emergent process, with unpredictable routes and vectors. I don't think things are 'for' anything, this I think is a semantic trap our minds fall into. Much greater clarity can be achieved by not asking 'what is something for?' and instead asking 'what use can this be?'. This works just as well for humans as for substances and plants; don't as 'what is my life for?', rather ask 'what use can my life be?'.
But, I do think that psychedelic drugs can be very useful for helping to break outside the paths/patterns trodden by humans down the years, and move forward into a better future. And I don't think it's about tradition, it's about breaking out of tradition into a better place...
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Those are excellent points. Your reply reminded me that psychedelics are tools, and its about the intent and how we use them for many different reasons. I definitely see the world as a prideful, self-absorbed place full of closed minded people, they need to open themselves up! maybe not all of them, but enough.
I was thinking a while back about how the US Government used LSD to culturally win the Cold War, they let it get big and had concerts and all of that, then they turned their back on it. I realize some people won't see it this way, but I do, they knew exactly what was happening, and promoted it among the youth and intellectuals to improve creativity, then tried to use it as a weapon, and tried to own it. Now, it is still with us, but it does not permeate our society the way it once did. The absurdity of it all is how 13 years later, the DEA website still has pictures of LSD cooks(well, one of them) rather than coke/meth/heroin ckingpins. And yet we have China serving up 2C's and NBOMe like candy, while the same thing in the US would get someone a life sentence. The means of production have been stolen, they don't need us to reinforce their false cultural superiority anymore. Oh well, fuck 'em. We rise from the ashes like a phoenix, and burn the sky with our wings.
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I think psychedelics are a useful tool for changing your perspective, looking at a problem in a new light, and especially for self-reflection and the resolution of emotional issues that require an objective, detached look at your behavior and state of mind.
I know that psychedelics don't give you any superhuman powers. I know that they can cause you to see connections where none exist, causing users to see their thoughts as particularly insightful and enlightened, and I've experienced this myself. I also know that they can be abused and cause as many problems as they solve.
So no, compared to your average acid-head who thinks they have a direct channel to the divine every time they drop, no I'm not drinking THAT kool-aid.
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We can agree to disagree about certain things. If you don't drink the Kool-Aid, no one will make you, but I'd like to clear up some misconceptions about psychedelics that the mainstream scientific community has been hiding from us. First, they dramatically increase motor reaction time, sensory perception limits, and virtually all physical function is boosted to maximum levels, 'champion mode' if you like. This brings us to the final, mysterious nature of the trance state, A friend and I did experiments with remote viewing and telepathy, which were 5x higher on LSD-25 vs. baseline, MKULTRA had discovered this, which is why they boosted the dosages to the point of ODing soldiers, to gain trace data in any way they could. I wouldn't be surprised if the US, Russian, and Chinese Gov't's have dedicated viewers hooked up to sensory "flash" machines that measure eye jerks in response to sub-conscious detection of hidden data, some of them are definitely on drugs if they aren't trained in some kind of meditation or have natural gifts. I never said Psychedelics do this for everyone, they do this for the chosen, those who are willing to look where others are not. Ask, and you shall receive, a couple of times I caught a glimpse of death coming for me, I beat it, and survived against all odds. May the force be with you! stay safe and reach new heights! don't fear what THEY don't want you to understand!
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I know that psychedelics don't give you any superhuman powers. I know that they can cause you to see connections where none exist, causing users to see their thoughts as particularly insightful and enlightened, and I've experienced this myself. I also know that they can be abused and cause as many problems as they solve.
Your true level of development cannot be faked. Only you are responsible for clearing the way. Psychedelics will pull you up, but the drug itself won't pull you through or fix any of your problems. Only you can.
Consciousness in general can be abused and causes as many problems as it solves. It causes you to see connections where none previously existed... the point is for you to make those connections. To bring them into the world through power of will.
The serotonin molecule itself gives an excellent foundational color and definition to your perception, both internally and externally. It itself is a psychedelic molecule, just one that is normally present in slowly variant levels. Taking LSD or MDMA is truly offsetting the level—this offset produces a window of fast and diverse mental changes... called "psychedelic."
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Isn't DMT present in about all living things? I heard it was a compound that the human brain has evolved with and may be the chemical responsible for dreams? And I believe that mankind has evolved using cannabis for a great time as the brain has specialized cannibinoid receptors.
I feel it is a great injustice that persons who see psychedelic compounds such as LSD as a tool to experience the divine are denied the right to claim such. Even though a few religions are allowed their compounds, it is apparently only because they are old traditions. I agree that compounds are not a route to enlightenment or the divine, but I believe they allow you to experience perspectives that may be impossible to you otherwise.
But I can only make this call for myself. If one believes that Lucy lets them chat with god, who am I to say no. I can just say not me. I however would be very happy to join a "church" where LSD is treated as a holy sacrament and I could trip and meditate in peace with no fear of persecution.
Has anybody created a religion based on acid? I would be surprised if not, and if so, how did they fail... Maybe its time for another try. Just have to become recognized as a legitimate religion, right? C'mon man, we can do this, I can see it now - TSC: Temple of the Sacred Molecule. ^.^ But seriously, I think someone tried and failed miserably, gov't wasn't havin none of that as I recall.
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Timothy Leary started the League for Spiritual Discovery(LSD), and had 360 members(a circle) teaching about the 8 different circuits of consciousness, and how they are preparing us to eventually live in space, and free us from our physical limitations. The problem was that after he had the 360, he just told them to go out and tell people to start their own religion, so it got really splintered, because there was no leadership or single thing that they had in common except for psychedelics. This idea was a little too far-out for the establishment, so the guy who robbed the Watergate hotel for Nixon, G.Gordon Liddy, raided him at Millbrook. Leary's big downfall, in my opinion, is that he wanted to be taken seriously as a scientist while preaching about religion, and as we know, religion and science aren't compatible for many zealots and such, and most of the scientific world entertains the idea of a god, but dismisses religion in their work, because it isn't a system of universal constants. As far as I know, Dr.Leary could not get recognition, although the Native American Church is given some access to peyote and the UDV can take Ayahuasca. I believe that other groups COULD get recognition, but they would have to be established for a while, and during that time the government could infiltrate them, so until that happens, we'll just have to be sneaky =)
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Indeed, but in the age of social media don't you think there might be a chance? It can be a spiritual thing, dogma need not apply at all. I appreciate religion for its cultural value, but agree it it totally incompatible with science in the end. It can likely be blamed for our lack of greater development as a species: 2010 came and went, still no humans on mars, let alone IO, and wheres my damn HAL? ^.^
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Isn't DMT present in about all living things? I heard it was a compound that the human brain has evolved with and may be the chemical responsible for dreams? And I believe that mankind has evolved using cannabis for a great time as the brain has specialized cannibinoid receptors.
It's a fairly common molecule yeah, but it's not present in all things. It is present in human beings, some other mammals, and a lot of different plants (but not all plants). What it's doing in humans we don't know but it might not be doing anything and it's quite possible that it's existence in the human body is essentially random, left over junk from four billion years of evolution.
As to cannbinoids or opiates for that matter this again could be a fluke of evolution or quite possibly a defense mechanism of the plant. Getting high out in the wild is generally a very bad thing. If you're a bug for instance and you try to eat some opium poppies you could end up incapacitated, which means you can't run away when a predator comes along.
To the OPs question, I drank the kool-aid but it didn't taste right to me so I had to spit it out. In my opinion, Hunter S. Thompson put it best...
We are all wired into a survival trip now. No more of the speed that fueled that 60's. That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously... All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.
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the op gives food for thought. but i like jhancock1984's take on the situation as well. I know as a youth mushrooms and lsd helped me grow and learn to question my perceptions but in itself it doesn't equate to an ongoing path to enlightenment, more like a workout for a growing mind that could perhaps be achieved through philosophical introspection or meditation just as effectively as with drugs. Im interested in the concept of the high end "shared experience" items like dmt and salvia but am nervous of getting involved because....do i want to believe when the belief could be a fallacy....you can't un know something or un see it. can the experience of "breaking through" impare ones ability to be objective about it.
i fucking hate people who use quotation marks and i have done it twice in one shitty post.
i find k interesting, its like a reverse trip, it removes the ego and sends the mind back to the primordial mud like a reset switch for the psyche =)
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I wouldn't go as far as to say "they evolved to trigger a thought-provoking and spiritual experience, by the planet and a creator", since I do not see that kind of intent in the universe, and don't subscribe to the idea of a creator or guiding hand. Evolution in as emergent process, with unpredictable routes and vectors. I don't think things are 'for' anything, this I think is a semantic trap our minds fall into.
Some if not all natural psychoactive drugs are AFAIK poison. (although at least some have multiple functions) Plants make 'm to kill bugs.
But that's still no reason to outlaw anything, I can buy as much poison as I want, I just can't legally have the good stuff.
Has anybody created a religion based on acid? I would be surprised if not, and if so, how did they fail... Maybe its time for another try. Just have to become recognized as a legitimate religion, right? C'mon man, we can do this, I can see it now - TSC: Temple of the Sacred Molecule. ^.^ But seriously, I think someone tried and failed miserably, gov't wasn't havin none of that as I recall.
I'm sorry. No new religions. Only christianity and islam are recognized religions. No new religions are allowed. Certainly not for any "we can break the law because of religous freedom" forms.
Proof is found in The Netherlands. A Jewish man who didn't carry his ID with him. He didn't do anything wrong, the cops just asked for his ID. The man explained he couldn't have anything on him except his clothes during sabbath and suggested the cops would obtain his ID from his house.
Cops didn't care and fined him anyway. Judge ruled the cops were wrong. Higher judge ruled the cops were right.
And you think a *new* religion would be allowed to use drugs? Think again.
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I saw a blotter art with "kool-aid", it looked like cherry juice. What is kool-aid? ;)
Looks yummy.
(I'm sure I'm totally off and people with laugh at my failure of understanding that it is not even something you can drink. ;))
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Im interested in the concept of the high end "shared experience" items like dmt and salvia but am nervous of getting involved because....do i want to believe when the belief could be a fallacy....you can't un know something or un see it. can the experience of "breaking through" impare ones ability to be objective about it.
In my experience DMT unlocks the doors of your own mind. If you believe in supernatural presences you'll see supernatural presences. You'll otherize aspects of your own personality rather than accepting that they're creations of your own mind or repressed parts of yourself. If you've started to let go of the idea that everything has a meaning and come to realize that things may in fact be random rather than planned by some supernatural presence you can watch as old belief structures come up and fade away as anxiety and fear rises and dissipates (assuming you used religion as a security blanket like I did). It's a really interesting phenomena and quite insightful when approached with an open mind.
That said smoked DMT alone is somewhat of a waste in my opinion. I've had great experiences combining smoked DMT with LSD and MDMA as I'm already in an altered state. But going from baseline to tripping balls and then back to sober in the space of five minutes is so jarring that integration was very hard for me. Oral DMT on the other hand is a lot like a high dose of mushrooms. Excellent closed eye visuals that let you move in and out of trance states quite easily. It's a very visionary substance, not just random fractals but rather like your imagination has been cranked up a notch or two.
I have no experience with high doses of Salvia so I can't comment on that one.
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I saw a blotter art with "kool-aid", it looked like cherry juice. What is kool-aid? ;)
Looks yummy.
(I'm sure I'm totally off and people with laugh at my failure of understanding that it is not even something you can drink. ;))
Kool-Aid is a powdered, fruit flavored drink that is mixed with water and sometimes sugar.
there is one kind where you use your own sugar, another with sugar included. There are
about 50 flavors, and it is especially appreciated by the African-American community.
It was made famous in the 1970s by Jim Jones when he forced his cult to kill themselves,
many by drinking cyanide-laced kool-aid. Because of this, the saying goes that if you have
100% faith in something, you "Drink the kool aid" meaning that you would drink poison if you
thought it would get you to heaven or promote your cause. I would not drink poison, but I
started this thread because I do believe that I've had 100% genuine religious experiences on
psychedelics. I have seen:
1. The plant lady or Pachamama(mother earth)
2. 4 Angels with 6 wings
3. Alien Insects
4. Frog-Elves
5. demons
6. ghosts
more than this, I have had information bombarded into my mind from the god-head or
whatever you want to call it, after seeing the angels. They were pale and had fixed wings
like a dragon fly, only more like bird wings that flutter but not flap. They also floated and
had faces/bodies that looked somewhat like the Shroud of Turin, with beards and hair.
anyway, I definitely drink the kool aid! I really am enjoying this!
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I used to look for inherent meaning in things. What's the meaning of life? Why does this do this? ect. ect. And I had very similar experiences to GGGreenbud. A lot of ++++s as Shulgin would say. That was before I stopped one night when I was on 2c-e and asked myself, "what if it's all random?"
A few weeks later I tried oral DMT for the first time and realized that entity contact related directly to how much anxiety I was feeling. How uncertain I was, how uncomfortable I was, generally with the prospect of knowing that some day I'm going to die. My wife mentioned the recent death of James Gandolfini and fear rose up inside of me. Walls that had merely been moving a moment before came alive, faces came out of them, entities comforting me. Gods, angels, what have you. My wife could see I was scared and she asked me if I was alright, to which I replied, "I will be."
I closed my eyes to explore my fear and sank into a trance. During this trance I essentially I had a white light experience and I was trying really hard to 'get into the light' but then I realized that the light was love and that the barrier between me and it was my sense of unworthiness. So I relaxed and the love flowed in. I realized that the love was God, that it was God loving me. That God really did love me. But then I realized it wasn't even God's love that I really wanted but my own. My own sense of self worth and value, not anchored to anything on the outside. And then the light became me and I became my own God and the light dissolved into a golden eye that opened and shined it's light all over everything.
It was the most amazing psychedelic experience of my life.
Now I'm not saying there is no God because I don't know. But in my personal experience direct contact with entities through psychedelics doesn't give those experiences an objective meaning. Subjectively speaking they can mean the world to the individual, but they're not proof of the existence of God anymore than my ability to dispel my own gods from my mind by facing my fears is proof that there is no God. But I would ask that everyone that hasn't yet to just stop for a second and ask themselves if it's possible that any given thing is just random, a fluke, without purpose. I used to believe everything had a purpose, that it was designed and meant to be a certain way. Now I kinda like the thought of such complexity being birthed by nothing but random events. That chaos could create something so magnificent as this thing we call human consciousness.
My two cents anyway :)
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“If the words ‘life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness’ don’t include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn’t worth the hemp it was written on.”
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I closed my eyes to explore my fear and sank into a trance. During this trance I essentially I had a white light experience and I was trying really hard to 'get into the light' but then I realized that the light was love and that the barrier between me and it was my sense of unworthiness. So I relaxed and the love flowed in. I realized that the love was God, that it was God loving me. That God really did love me. But then I realized it wasn't even God's love that I really wanted but my own. My own sense of self worth and value, not anchored to anything on the outside. And then the light became me and I became my own God and the light dissolved into a golden eye that opened and shined it's light all over everything.
It was the most amazing psychedelic experience of my life.
Now I'm not saying there is no God because I don't know. But in my personal experience direct contact with entities through psychedelics doesn't give those experiences an objective meaning. Subjectively speaking they can mean the world to the individual, but they're not proof of the existence of God anymore than my ability to dispel my own gods from my mind by facing my fears is proof that there is no God. But I would ask that everyone that hasn't yet to just stop for a second and ask themselves if it's possible that any given thing is just random, a fluke, without purpose. I used to believe everything had a purpose, that it was designed and meant to be a certain way. Now I kinda like the thought of such complexity being birthed by nothing but random events. That chaos could create something so magnificent as this thing we call human consciousness.
My two cents anyway :)
That is awesome! halleluja! can I get an A-men?
I had a shroom trip like that, I do think it is all about getting into a trance, before I thought you could just break into that part of it, but now, I think there is a frequency, and you have to hit it just right to get that kind of peak. Two weeks ago, when I did the mescaline, it was like that, in a sense. That was the heaviest its ever gotten, shrooms get up there, acid does too. I will do 2C's sometime, not ready yet.
You are seriously lucky, I hope you realize how lucky we are. It is a major life experience when you go through something like that, most will not experience this, many will, but most will not, until the end.
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A-men! 8)
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I am beginning to see that this is not as much of a black-and-white issue that I have initially made it out to be. There is a religion called "The Temple of Eternal Light" in New York, they have a website, I visited it, and apparently they already have declared that DPT(dipropyl-tryptamine) is their sacrament.
There is a saying, from the Tom Wolfe semi-fiction novel "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" about the Merry Pranksters, a who traveled on a psychedelic bus, from coast to coast and back, the main protagonist, Ken Kesey(author of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest) said you were either "on the bus" or "off the bus." I interpret to mean that you are either on-board with whatever journey you've started, or you've decided that you want to get off, because you have found the answers you seek, and being a prankster on the bus has no more 'kicks' to offer you.
I like to think we're all still on the bus, it is our choice whether we drink the kool-aid(with LSD in it!) or not. This novel had very substantial impact on my youth, as I embraced both the hippy and punk movements, with their free-spirit, non-materialist, and creative DIY sense of self-sufficiency. I recently read "The Brotherhood of Eternal Love" its available online for free somewhere, it gives insight into the beginnings of the illicit LSD scene in the late 60s, and The Brotherhood, whom I've met a few members of in my travels, I think they definitely drink the kool-aid, or at least act like it. I don't know where I'm going with this, but I'd like to thank everyone, this discussion has only enhanced my belief that psychedelics are true agents of inspiration and spiritual discovery, when used for such purposes. I don't think I'm going to start a religion, because I don't like dogmatic arguments, which invariably arise with absolutism(my worst enemy), but I'm definitely sippin' kool-aid on the bus =)
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Well they can certainly be agents of change that's for sure :D And rather you believe in the spiritual is sorta beside the point I suppose.
I'm a huge supporter of MAPS and firmly believe that psychedelics can be a great tool for healing. So in that regard, I've definitely drank the kool-aid.