Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: tommygun on October 08, 2012, 12:44 am
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I like to keep tolerance at bay as much as possible (and well.. addiction) Can anyone share experience of how quickly you develop hydrocodone tolerance for example?
I have taken 5mg in the past and 7.5/10 would get my nice and toasty. This was only doing it once a week or so though. Now I have been taking 10's for a couple months but trying to only take every couple days or so and starting to feel diminishing results.
I know it depends on the person and this is probably extremely low dosage for many people. Just curious, so like if I took 10mg every other day, how long would it take before needing 20, etc. Not sure if this makes sense of not..
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If you are talking every other day, then tolerance will progress pretty damn quick. Which is one of the main reasons why opiates are so tricky. I would say in your example, every other day would double your tolerance in less than a month. But if you take a month off tolerance will completely reset in my experience.
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K thanks for the feedback, going to take a break soon, a month may be tough lol. Does it matter what kind? Like say I switched back and forth oxycodone. Or is it just opiate is an opiate kind of thing (my assumption)
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There is cross tolerance with pretty much any opioid. BUt Oxy and Hydro codone are so chemically similar that there will be more cross tolerance as well as overlapping WD shit if you were to get to that point. So switching back n forth between those two would not make much of a difference no, other than that Oxy is slightly stronger. I would recommend switching to an entirely different drug category if you wana take a break but need something to not be sober hah.
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Tolerance basically developes to all drugs in the same class. Periodically switching between different opiates will not affect tolerance over any serious amount of tine.
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The quick answer is that tolerance will build fairly fast, but not so fast that you would really notice it unless you keep an eye on it.
It's not like they say in movies... That whole 'a hit today, a hit tomorrow, then you're an addict' thing is pretty much a lie. 10mg today will most likely do the same as 10mg tomorrow. It's in two weeks time that you need to worry.
Things to keep in mind if you want to 'chip', ie use opiates but not be an addict:
Be extremely vigilant for withdrawal symptoms. If you've never got them before (and you aren't using H) then they will show up first as a runny nose and general feeling of being faintly unwell. Be on the look out for them. Your instinct is just that you are run down or whatever. Your body is lying to you because you don't know what DTing feels like. At that point, stop using and don't touch opiates again for 3-4 days.
The core of what physically makes a person an addict is needing to use a little bit just to be sober. So the first signs of withdrawl are what says you need to cut back. They won't be bad, barely even noticeable. But if you use to clean out DTs then you won't be getting high and you'll still be pushing your tolerance. Not a good combination.
Tolerance will build basically every time you take an opiate, and drop a bit every day you go without but its not simple to say exactly how much.
My approach for most of my 3 years of addiction was to have a five day cycle of drug use that was reasonably successful at preventing my tolerance getting too high. Essentially I'd get nice and high on day 1, then take enough to just feel the buzz on day 2, then just enough to not DT on day 3, then try and go all day 4 without using at all maybe with a quarter of a pill to help me sleep, and day 5 with straight nothing. Then repeat.
Obviously that wasn't terribly compatible with my day to day life, particularly since I was very much of the opinion that I work better when high, so in practice I seldom stuck to that plan, but you get the idea. The concept was that I'd always be able to get high if I felt I needed to, but that I would also be only a week removed from getting clean(ish) if I needed to.
For the first two years, I pretty much kept this up, with allowances for my life. I used a lot to write research papers and such, the rest of the time not so much. A lot of the time I was using because I had to, rather than because I wanted to, but having some kind of plan to deal with tolerance made me feel a lot more in control. Waking up with withdrawl symptoms three or four days of the week was fine, because I knew I could essentially just stop. I knew that I could go days without using. My tolerance at the end was perhaps 60% higher than it had been (ie I needed 50mg to get where I wanted instead of the 30mg I started on). Which is bad, obviously, but I was keeping it slow and low.
And then towards the end of the third year...well... things kinda got away from me. It was my last year of graduate school, I had no classes, I just had to write my thesis. And at the end things were getting ugly. I'd gone from some kind of order to absolute chaos. I had a lot of work to do, and not much time, and worked better high. So I used near constantly.
The second to last time I tried to get high, I necked my remaining pills (280mg of hydro IIRC) and was supremely pissed off that I was distinctly NOT high barely even feeling them, had to make a MASSIVE pot of poppy tea (perhaps another 200mg morphine) to get where I was going, and that wasn't even nodding out. That was just warm and fuzzy. Pretty high, but not REAL high.
That wasn't really a warning sign, I was going to quit soon anyway (job starting soon etc) but it really did give me some perspective on the whole thing. Right up until that point I had always felt that I was controlling the drug use, not the other way around.
Why am I telling you this ? Well, I don't see myself as being a cautionary tale. I got degrees, I got a job, I got a wife, all under the influence. Drugs did not ruin my life. If you don't want them to either, but still want to play with something that is quite so vindictively addictive as opiates, then you need to stick a choke chain on it right at the start. Never get to the point where not using for a day or more will utterly fuck you up.
Ideally find yourself a real good friend and get him/her to ask you every couple of weeks about how much you've been using recently. It's real easy to lie to yourself, its real hard to lie to someone you respect and confide in.
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Yeah man, those are some great anecdotes and I relate so much. Even most subtle withdrawal symptoms should instantly mean that you stop using for a week at least. If all you can do is 3-4 days fine, although thats not as good, but the instinct is what matters. If you're instinct is to simply get more and do more to relieve any dysphoria or discomfort you will be a full blown drug addict very soon. I've had three surgeries, while I was taking a full course schedule in college and I am now just starting to get to the recovery phase from the 3rd surgery where pain is manageable without drugs, but the way it helps school work is kinda funny hah yeah I relate man. And I am prescribed Vyvanse, but all things considered I would prefer oxy, it would depend on what type of school work but, not just school work but real work too hydro and oxycodone really make it better and in some cases make you better at whatever your doing. You really just get high on life, meaning it enhances any activity literally, people say that about weed, but opiates, especially the more energetic forms, are the ultimate enhance-anything drug, which is one aspect of their wildly addictive nature.
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Damn l0574l0ne that was a good read and thank you all for the feedback. I am very aware of addiction and have an addictive personality (kind of), however usually have been able to pull away with "mind over matter". In college I certain did a lot of psychedelics, tons of pot and got into coke some. Was to scared to try H or even X, although I did smoke crack once in high school- saw that path pretty quick.
On occasion I'll still dabble with coke, like make 2-3 times in a month then wont do any for 4-6 months, so I "feel" I'm "ok" there. I usually don't do alot and am really worried about 1. oding (so I usually at most do like .25grams lol) 2. putting god knows what up my nose. 3. having a fucked up nose for several days. I take clonezepam regularly for stress, but limit it to every other day, .5- 1 mg, and never mix stimulants with depressants. I still smoke pot but its only at night maybe a couple nights a week, used to be my favorite drug, but as I get older its harder to hide and I feel kinda stupid the next day.
But man opiates, I can definitely see why people get hooked. Its great to pop a pill and enjoy the day. Or crank out some work and be productive. Yes I have job, family, etc and I'm not about to fuck that all up. I started to notice that feeling of "need" after two days of doing 10mg hydocodone, so took a couple days off . Going to try a week break , at least at first. When I started thinking, hey maybe I'm close to just taking a 20mg roxy (or whatever) I knew that was bad.
Its just an extra relaxation method for me and makes me happy and feel closer to my family. I just need to keep the claws from digging in too deep.... Again ,for whoever reads this, I am not judging you for anything, just trying to learn from the path of others so I can adjust my path accordingly.
Cigs have been tough too, was 2 pack/day in college, been 3-4 day for past couple years, now mixing in the e-cig and making it through many days without a cig, but damn thats a tough one. F'ing cigs...
Again, thanks :)
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I've had three surgeries, while I was taking a full course schedule in college and I am now just starting to get to the recovery phase from the 3rd surgery where pain is manageable without drugs, ...
After surgery there are several options available for dealing with the resulting pain, most of them not requiring opiates after the first day or two. Something like diclofenac can be extremely useful after have fracture reduced by surgically fixing it with things like metal plats, screws and comparable mechanical approaches.
Surely i'm not saying that long term opiate treatment is not required with any surgeries, but we should realistically look on what actually is required on a case by case level.
I do severely oppose to the idea that pain management is not required as long as the patient can tolerate the pain - that idea bascially means it can hurt as bad as it does up to the point where someone would actually shoot himself in the head to end the ordeal. With all our medical achievements it should be possible to come up with pain management for the vast majority of patients, preferably such that isn't too addictive, but mostly such that is effective.
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I've had three surgeries, while I was taking a full course schedule in college and I am now just starting to get to the recovery phase from the 3rd surgery where pain is manageable without drugs, ...
After surgery there are several options available for dealing with the resulting pain, most of them not requiring opiates after the first day or two. Something like diclofenac can be extremely useful after have fracture reduced by surgically fixing it with things like metal plats, screws and comparable mechanical approaches.
Surely i'm not saying that long term opiate treatment is not required with any surgeries, but we should realistically look on what actually is required on a case by case level.
I do severely oppose to the idea that pain management is not required as long as the patient can tolerate the pain - that idea bascially means it can hurt as bad as it does up to the point where someone would actually shoot himself in the head to end the ordeal. With all our medical achievements it should be possible to come up with pain management for the vast majority of patients, preferably such that isn't too addictive, but mostly such that is effective.
Yeah, well if you know some way I wouldn't have needed opiates a couple days after surgery, hah you should spill it to the world because if there was such a thing, I believe it would be known. I needed regular opioids for 4 weeks bare minimum, and I'm no pussy. After that, I kinda needed em and kinda wanted em. I mean, the 2nd month fuckin sucks, I basically needed them for two months. And still had some legitimate medical need for them up to 6 months post surgery. Especially when needing to work full time in a kitchen.
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It obviously depends on what surgery was performed on you. In some cases treatment with opiates is indicated for a period of time that can span several weeks if not more. This is mostly the case for surgery that involves the internal organs - work on bone and muscle tissue (like after breaking a limb) can often be managed with substances like diclofenac within a few days.
If the treating medical staff prescribed opiates for a longer period of time there probably is very good reason to do so, and the risk of addiction may outweigh the benefits of pain management. In case you develop tolerance, or worse, dependance on those substances during the course of treatment, you should really revisit the doctor that prescribed them. You aren't likely to be the only patient having these problems, and they may provide beneficial advise based on experiences with previous patients. Just hear them out, the choice on how to act will remain yours to take.
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I appreciate the comments, and obviously it is a delicate balance between legitimate medical necessity and risk of addiction. My most recent surgery was a labrum repair in two places (two tears in the internal capsule that holds your shoulder in place) and a torn rotator cuff, but all 3 surgeries have been labrum repairs in my shoulder for chronic shoulder dislocations. Shoulder surgeries are tougher than most as far as orthopedic procedures, I have friends who have had other types of surgery and it was a piece of cake by comparison. All I would say is that merely exposure to opioids is not enough of a risk to outweigh the medical benefit they have in the first two months, which is ENORMOUS. I realize they are probably the most addictive category of drugs known to man, but as long is there significant knowledge and education on both the doctor and patient's part, some of it just comes down to personal responsibility. Alcohol is pretty fuckin addictive and harmful to your body and where I live you can buy it at every single gas station, exposure does not necessitate addiction, catch my drift? I was avle to strickly schedule out my meds and adhere to it in order to completely avoid any withdrawal despite taking hundreds and hundreds of oxys and hydros in a 2 month period. I was able to do that because of the amount of self-education I engage it on a regular basis on forums such as this one.
I would say what is really a problematic situation is people with severe, CHRONIC pain. As shitty and slow as recovery from surgeries has been, eventually the regular pain starts to subside, chronic pain is when it gets really tricky with prescription opioids.
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It can be a sliding slope indeed. Surgery like that can be extremely painful especially right after it has been performed.
Many hospitals in the netherlands provide morphine while you are still in hospital, especially right before or after waking up from the anesthesia. Usual doses are 10 mg, maybe double to 20 in severe cases. By the time you leave hospital (same day or next usually) patients are given non-opiate painkillers like diclofenac, naproxen or ibuprofen in large doses that can then be tapered off as the pain subsides. These have little to no risk of dependence so there is no hurry in the reducing doses at all as long as measures are taken to limit side effects (such as giving acid reducers / stomach protectorants as well).
As far as availability doesn't create addiction i fully agree: living in the netherlands i can obtain pot cheaply and easily at all times, yet i rarely smoke any (maybe once a month joining in with friends). Substances like cocaine or heroin in amounts for personal use are also easy to obtain (though technically illegal). Despite that, consumption of all of these drugs is, on average, lower than that the figures for the US where they are strictly enforced against and hence harder/more expensive to obtain.
The drugs i use most are tobacco and alcohol, which are widely available in most countries around the world. Purchasing a bottle of vodka ia more of a hassle and more costly then getting a gram of 2 of good quality pot, yet very few people choose the latter - despite the health risks will probably be lower if viewed objectively.
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Ibuprofen? The same day? Dude, you have never had surgery have you... I had a numbing agent injected into my spine so that the entire local area of the shoulder and the side of my neck was competely numb for the first 2-3 days, so the full pain didn't even kick in until then. I had the numbing, ontop of the oxy and was still in a shitload of pain. Ibuprofen? You gotta be kidding....
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First, is Nutria a form of Sable, Bob?
Second been there on the surgery - I actually tried to not use the Hydrocodone prescribed to me (why waste it?), and on the second day I had to upgrade to oxy for the pain. You can't ever die from surgery pain, it's just that it at a certain intensity it becomes so distracting you can't think straight.
Finally l0574l0ne what a great read man thank you. It actually describes my situation pretty closely, but for obvious reasons I've never been able to relate to another high functioning professional doing dope.
Another warning sign is depression the next day - watch out for it.
I appreciate the comments, and obviously it is a delicate balance between legitimate medical necessity and risk of addiction. My most recent surgery was a labrum repair in two places (two tears in the internal capsule that holds your shoulder in place) and a torn rotator cuff, but all 3 surgeries have been labrum repairs in my shoulder for chronic shoulder dislocations. Shoulder surgeries are tougher than most as far as orthopedic procedures, I have friends who have had other types of surgery and it was a piece of cake by comparison. All I would say is that merely exposure to opioids is not enough of a risk to outweigh the medical benefit they have in the first two months, which is ENORMOUS. I realize they are probably the most addictive category of drugs known to man, but as long is there significant knowledge and education on both the doctor and patient's part, some of it just comes down to personal responsibility. Alcohol is pretty fuckin addictive and harmful to your body and where I live you can buy it at every single gas station, exposure does not necessitate addiction, catch my drift? I was avle to strickly schedule out my meds and adhere to it in order to completely avoid any withdrawal despite taking hundreds and hundreds of oxys and hydros in a 2 month period. I was able to do that because of the amount of self-education I engage it on a regular basis on forums such as this one.
I would say what is really a problematic situation is people with severe, CHRONIC pain. As shitty and slow as recovery from surgeries has been, eventually the regular pain starts to subside, chronic pain is when it gets really tricky with prescription opioids.
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Thanks again, and yeah I have definitely noticed that depression effect, usually helps if I just realize that's its probably just the craving. Trying to limit to weekends for now.