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Market => Product requests => Topic started by: ostrichface on September 12, 2012, 12:44 am

Title: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: ostrichface on September 12, 2012, 12:44 am
Hi there,
Even if you know what a ketubah is then you may be able to help me. If not, it's a jewish marriage certificate (Not stamped by any government authority, only religious)
Basically the background isn't important, but I want to take an old certificate (you can buy old ones off the internet legally) and pretend it's my great grandmother's or something. Then I want to take it to a Rabbi and get confirmed as Jewish.

Yes, I'm strange. But somehow I'm trying to work out how this can go wrong, it seems a very nepotistic process. Long story short I need a rabbi's signature and want to get "confirmed".

Would definitely be willing to pay for information/help with document editing. (Especially if anyone knows about this kind of thing)

edit:
If anyone  thinks maybe they have anything to offer, feel free to PM me and we'll work out a more secure way to talk.

Thanks.
Title: Re: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: WeedIndeed on September 12, 2012, 02:11 am
I live in israel, and I think most rabbis would take a bribe for a signature (lol)
anyhow, what are you planning to do with this thing? are you trying to get an Israeli citizenship? I think getting a current rabbi to sign an old document would be a stupid idea, since this rabbi we're talking about probably hadn't even existed when the document was created. I think you'd be better off just faking a signature
Title: Re: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: ostrichface on September 12, 2012, 02:49 pm
I live in israel, and I think most rabbis would take a bribe for a signature (lol)
anyhow, what are you planning to do with this thing? are you trying to get an Israeli citizenship? I think getting a current rabbi to sign an old document would be a stupid idea, since this rabbi we're talking about probably hadn't even existed when the document was created. I think you'd be better off just faking a signature
Well yes, it seems that once I have a Rabbi's letter with his shule letterhead = no questions asked, they let you in.

I've researched it a lot and it seems as though any rabbi's signature will do. Even if the document is old and everyone who was there is long-dead (which might help my case, since I can say "everything is so complicated but this is what I have" and seem sincere enough.

Do you think if I acted convincing enough a Rabbi would just sign it and give me the benefit of the doubt? I'd be way too scared to ask for a bribe, but I'd definitely give lots of money if they would.
I'd be too scared to fake the signature, since they'd probably call him and make sure he signed it - and when they do he would say "no i've never heard of him".

Thanks!
Title: Re: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: WeedIndeed on September 13, 2012, 10:00 pm
I really doubt they'll be checking the signatures with the rabbi. Besides, there are so many rabbis out there, it's probably impossible.
There are probably tons of info on this subject in Hebrew (which is understandably my first language), but it does take time to research and I'm not sure I have enough time right now.
I've never been to a rabbi before so I don't really know the procedure, but surely some if not most of them (at least in Israel) would happily take your bribe. In fact, bribes and other "donations" are probably their main income.

What *exactly* is the purpose of this anyway?
Title: Re: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: l1llykins on September 14, 2012, 02:05 am
Are you looking for a real old ketubah or a forged ketubah with specific names/dates and other info?
Title: Re: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: ostrichface on September 14, 2012, 03:59 am
Are you looking for a real old ketubah or a forged ketubah with specific names/dates and other info?
My original thoughts were, an old one that can be edited to look like one with specific names and info.
So I need to make it seem as if it's from one of my family, but old enough so that they might not bother/be able to check who signed it and such. Whichever way is best to get that signature :\
Title: Re: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: l1llykins on September 14, 2012, 05:46 am
Does the rabbi know your grandmother's Hebrew name? Technically, it can be any ketubah that you can claim as having belonged to your grandmother as long as you can read the names on the ketubah and tell him that was your grandmother's Hebrew name.

I think including a persons birth name on a ketubah is a very modern thing. Our grandparents would only have signed with their Hebrew name.
Title: Re: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: ostrichface on September 14, 2012, 06:14 pm
Does the rabbi know your grandmother's Hebrew name? Technically, it can be any ketubah that you can claim as having belonged to your grandmother as long as you can read the names on the ketubah and tell him that was your grandmother's Hebrew name.

I think including a persons birth name on a ketubah is a very modern thing. Our grandparents would only have signed with their Hebrew name.
So if I had an old one from let's say, the '30s/'40s and I claimed the name on it was my grandparent's - do you think he would investigate further/ask for more evidence to make sure it's true?
He might try to source the rabbi's name on the document and find out where it happened - then contact them for records!
Title: Re: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: WeedIndeed on September 14, 2012, 06:28 pm
They probably will do more research if something is off. You can imagine probably a lot of people try their luck with this horribly stupid law. I think it also depends on where you are from, but only if it's Africa or some muslim country.
Title: Re: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: l1llykins on September 14, 2012, 10:01 pm
If you say your grandparent's names were different than the one listed on the ketubah or that they got married in Turkey but the it reads some place in Persia, I imagine they'll want to look into it further. I don't know how much research they do and I think it's an individual thing. I knew a rabbi who would only ask the couple to write down their parent's and grandparent's hebrew names to verify heritage and if they couldn't to at least know the names.

Find someone who can read it, make sure you know at least the names on it.

Personally, I don't know what place my grandparents were married or who married them. And the rabbi wouldn't expect you to be able to read the Ketubah.
Title: Re: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: ostrichface on September 15, 2012, 12:43 pm
If you say your grandparent's names were different than the one listed on the ketubah or that they got married in Turkey but the it reads some place in Persia, I imagine they'll want to look into it further. I don't know how much research they do and I think it's an individual thing. I knew a rabbi who would only ask the couple to write down their parent's and grandparent's hebrew names to verify heritage and if they couldn't to at least know the names.

Find someone who can read it, make sure you know at least the names on it.

Personally, I don't know what place my grandparents were married or who married them. And the rabbi wouldn't expect you to be able to read the Ketubah.

Interesting, this is what I was thinking too. So if I know the name on it, say it's my grandmother - I guess I'm taking a risk whether or not he does a background check on the name.
I might just have to take a risk, but it's tough when you don't know what they'll do.
Title: Re: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: Errl_Kushman on September 15, 2012, 01:07 pm
George Costanza, is that you?
Title: Re: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: l1llykins on September 15, 2012, 06:20 pm
It will be a crapshoot on what their standard policy is.

Since you're claiming that your mother converted for whatever reason, he wouldn't expect you to know much more than her name, maybe the decade she was married. You can just say your mother didn't talk about it much. Though you might want to come up with an explanation about where the ketuba has been all this time and how you got a hold of it.
Title: Re: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: ostrichface on September 15, 2012, 07:24 pm
It will be a crapshoot on what their standard policy is.

Since you're claiming that your mother converted for whatever reason, he wouldn't expect you to know much more than her name, maybe the decade she was married. You can just say your mother didn't talk about it much. Though you might want to come up with an explanation about where the ketuba has been all this time and how you got a hold of it.

You're totally right about the risk on their policy, but I wouldn't say she was a convert. That would only further complicate things as they'd ask for a conversion certificate!
Title: Re: odd request/ ketubah
Post by: l1llykins on September 15, 2012, 09:37 pm
It will be a crapshoot on what their standard policy is.

Since you're claiming that your mother converted for whatever reason, he wouldn't expect you to know much more than her name, maybe the decade she was married. You can just say your mother didn't talk about it much. Though you might want to come up with an explanation about where the ketuba has been all this time and how you got a hold of it.

You're totally right about the risk on their policy, but I wouldn't say she was a convert. That would only further complicate things as they'd ask for a conversion certificate!

I meant your mother wasn't Jewish (or didn't have a Jewish wedding) ... otherwise you should be able to provide her ketubah.