Silk Road forums
Support => Feature requests => Topic started by: btcfreedom on June 28, 2011, 06:14 pm
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I personally do not find this cool, and stand for everything freedom and Silk Road is here for. We have been given a gift and this is not the way we should be using it. This is damaging and attracts as much attentions as the Weapons section. Also sellers are listing their locations by exposing the issuing country of the CC, which puts us all at risk. Nobody is cool with identity theft.
We truly can do without harm to others here. If anyone disagrees I'd truly like to hear why. I am not looking to argue or flame, I just want to hear everyone out, and try to explain why this is a wrong thing to have on here.
~btcfreedom
Please Vote On The Above Poll!
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Here's my 2 cents.
Right now we're in an age where the gap between the insanely rich and the destitute is growing thinner. Systems have been put in place to track us, identify us, and regulate us to make sure we follow the "law." The law protects those who are rich and makes it difficult for those without to make money.
One of the ways to live free and get around this is fraud, whether it be fake IDs, fake birth certificate, fake credit cards, fake PO box etc. This is one of our weapons against the control freaks in power, and it should not be discouraged. To do so would be to give up one of our weapons, and for what? Nobody's going to cheer us on because we're the "good guys," and those in power won't care because they hate us for refusing to give our freedom to them.
Secondly, credit card fraud doesn't hurt the individual. If Joe Shmoe gets his card number jacked, he reports it to his card provider, and the card provider erases the debt completely. It doesn't hurt his credit rating or cost him anything except a few minutes of his time. The only party that gets boned is the merchant, who bears the loss, but if the merchant is a corrupt entity like Walmart, then why should we care? I certainly don't.
What I'm saying is CCs can be used for ill, but they can also be used for good. Let's not be too eager to give them up. Or let them down. Or run around and desert them.
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I'm sorry, but I don't see stealing the identity of someone, as "our weapons" , nor are they against "the rich" and "control freaks".
CC's attracting attention to this entire operation is not what we need. We need a free, open market with no harm intended. You don't get high or have an experience from using a stolen credit card. You don't "liberate" society by stealing a person's belongings. You don't steal drugs then sell them. Well maybe you do, but the whole concept is different and should never be compared to weapons or stolen financial data. That is where I stand answering those thinking I'm running a double standard.
Whereas I DO sympathize with the corruption being given the finger aspect of this - and saying fuck you to control - it is not "entirely the vendor" who suffers. Honestly, those of you making a statement about credit card fraud not hurting anyone and just "taking a minute of their time" - is clearly indicative that you have never had this happen to you. Credit card fraud drives people apeshit, and LE has their nose right up it's ass already. It's a hotter topic than the "war on drugs". LE and banks are sitting there waiting to ram the book right up your ass. Statements belittling the severity of stealing someone's CC also indicates how little you care about morals and it's disappointing.
The market itself is a huge fuck you to control - bolder than ever and I love it. Enjoy what we have please and lets not ruin it.
how many of these numbers do you think are from rich folks? what if one of those numbers were yours, say in the middle of a BTC transfer?
Would suck a fat one :o
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BTCFreedom, although you want to bring up morals, this is not the place for it.
You can buy crystal meth, heroin, and many other potentially dangerous (production and distribution yields many deaths)
Those are all drugs that morally should be considered bad, most can lead to ones death.
But the question is, how far do you want to go with this moral police stuff? This is the internet. A black market of sorts, Of course you are going to see shit you dont like. If SR bans CC's and whatever then whats next? Someone complains about meth being morally bad and that gets removed too? The more SR bans the more freedom that is lost for us.
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>But the question is, how far do you want to go with this moral police stuff?
Stealing from someone else is immoral, consuming substances in your own house is not. Pretty straightforward.
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this feels like the CP debate all over again.
I think g4bb3r nailed it with his simple rule: stealing is bad, drugging is not.
my question to y'all, is selling/getting/using fake ID's bad?
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Stealing someone's identity is bad, buying drugs isn't. There is a longer statement in the Sellers guide on SR. If 50,000 CC details were purchased off this site, it would bring a shitstorm down from not only LE but also VISA/MC/AMEX. Pissing off the DEA and equivalent buy selling drugs is one thing, assisting in CC fraud pisses off a lot more influential people and organizations.
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rake, thank you very much for having an open, clear set of eyes and a properly working brain 8)
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That's not to say I don't support the selling of CC details, I just don't want it on the same site as I buy my instruments of pleasure.
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Let me repharse this, I think that way to many morals from very different sects of people are being thrown around somewhere where they shouldnt really be in play. Whats ok to some isn't for others. Credit card numbers are stolen and sold every day, maybe .00000000001% of those are on SR. But calling to ban vendors just seems like someone is taking this too seriously.
But imagine this, A reputable seller sells a batch of bad heroin or something else to others, and kills a few people. SR already has public attention, imagine if news broke that people died off a substance sold on SR. LE would be ALL OVER THIS. Everything on here is morally bad to one person or another. I guess it's up to SR to make the final call.
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While selling a bad batch of h is bad, its wouldn't be intentional. Stealing is intentional, and personally I'm against intentionally hurting anyone in any way.
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g4bber well put. a bad batch of heroin would not attract anywhere NEAR the amount of attention as CC information theft. the impact on SRM would be far more devastating as well. the explanation of the differences between drugs and stealing / harming someone is crystal clear. there really is no argument when the word "intent" is involved.
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I think both sides of this argument are misguided.
1. If you don't think it would be secure to sell credit card information or child porn here, then you should get the fuck away from this site immediately because it is just as insecure to sell drugs here. Security is obtained through technical and tactical means, there is no such thing as moral security. Thinking they, particularly the US government, will spend more resources on carding forums than drug forums is only the product of your own mirror imaging (ie: Thinking that your adversary thinks in the same manner as you do)
2. Credit card theft is morally wrong. There are not different sects of morals. There is only one true objective set of morals, and if people disagree then they are just immoral. Anarchy embraces true morality (and libertarianism comes very close), and anything less is immoral. The morals of anarchy are simple; don't do things that harm others unless they initiate the harm against you. Selling meth is not immoral. Forcing people to smoke meth is. Raping kids is immoral. Looking at pictures isn't. Stealing credit cards is immoral. It is really not that difficult to see the pattern.
3. LE already are all over this
There are four markets recognized by Agorism (the sort of Anarchist SR claims to be)
Black Market: All markets that go against the law of the government but that do not involve force or coercion (selling drugs, not paying taxes)
Red Market: All markets involving the use of force and coercion (government taxes, stolen credit cards, etc)
White Market: All markets which do no involve force or coercion which are also okay with the government (trading some things with out paying taxes)
Grey Market: All markets which are not government approved trade routes but which do not violate any laws (research chemicals)
The black white and grey markets are okay. The black market in particular can be used as a tool to combat government. Red market is bad, and includes stealing credit card information.
All red market activity should be banned, black market activity that is in line with the goal of SR should be allowed (for example, gun sales are black market, but should probably be avoided here).
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Currently as the only CC vendor in SRM I am eager to see where this goes. I am not going to participate in the arguing of being moral/immoral, I know where I stand from my point of view and that´s enough. I don´t actually care if you agree to it or not, I just want to see a final decision by SR if I can continue sales or not.
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I would also like clarification. I thought it was completely against the rules here to sell cc's?
I mean its pretty easy to get ccs. I am a vendor on a well known forum for worldwide CC's and I would like to sell here to be honest there is a lot less competition in the market here.
Would it be possible for me to do so?
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whoever, thank you for the breakdown. excellent descriptions and explanation. the posts i am seeing here are getting very interesting.
thanks to everyone who is voting on the poll as well. Silk Road Forever.
~btcf
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it is not "entirely the vendor" who suffers. Honestly, those of you making a statement about credit card fraud not hurting anyone and just "taking a minute of their time" - is clearly indicative that you have never had this happen to you. Credit card fraud drives people apeshit, and LE has their nose right up it's ass already.
Actually I have had my credit card account compromised several times before. I called my provider, filed a claim, and the debt was erased with minimum hassle. Credit card providers laud themselves for providing great fraud protection, and it's one of the few good things they actually do.
Ever hear of friendly fraud? That's where you charge something on your card and then claim fraud, receiving a free product/service. That shit drives merchants insane because the card providers almost always side with the consumer. Since tens of thousands of people are getting away with friendly fraud, even more people are getting unauthorized debt erased. Like I said, the only party that really suffers is the merchant.
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While selling a bad batch of h is bad, its wouldn't be intentional. Stealing is intentional, and personally I'm against intentionally hurting anyone in any way.
Shit, come to think of it an agent provocateur could do something like that to discredit SR and provoke a response against us.
NEVER GET COMFORTABLE HERE
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This is interesting to me. I am in charge of a web site that sells products and takes credit cards every day. Some times, when they call in and want to do a transaction over the phone because they dont trust the internet (what they don't realize is that is all that im doing, lol). When I get a credit card payment I never see the credit card number. I can only see the last 4 digits and the customers mailing info. I do go thru authorize.net
So, im guessing that it depends on the web site. If they are set up like an authorize.net it would be next to impossible to steal credit cards.
Btw, honest merchants like the one im affiliated with are the ones that pay extra for the fraud. Since we don't have the cc in front of us, we pay an extra percentage. So, obviously, not only for moral reasons, Im totally against selling cc info. Also, I when I read the big news story about silk road, silk roads response was that they dont allow cp, cc info, weapons, etc. what happened to that? I don't care too much about the weapons but I am against cp and cc info. Ive had my cc stolen and it's not fun going thru the process.
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thisaintme, respect given, it is a marketplace and this is your gear...but again those who don't understand this and after long repeated clarification - (the posts with the least say the most) - Stealing Credit Card Information And Selling It On Here Endangers All Of Us. The End. LE magnets are something we really, really don't need. Pisses on all parades.
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RickyRango, pull your focus off the actual process - and understand that the act of compromising this data endangers you, me and everybody on SRM.
I understand you have a leveraged point about who suffers more, and I do agree somewhat, but this is not the point here. Look beyond this and understand that it puts us all at risk.
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It's actually kinda funny, cus we say the same thing about drugs in the carding forums, but unfortunately, I agree, fraud does not belong on a drug market, and drugs do not belong on a fraud market, you can't mix business with pleasure, although it's not as bad as you others make it out to be, there are dozens of carding forums in just pure clearnet, and feds are still getting a rough time taking it down, so fraud isn't all that, considering drugs even have the capability of killing, as fraud is a completely harmless crime, and only takes its tolls on the banks, NOT on the people.. just about every person who get frauded in any manner, 9 times out of 10, they get paid everything back, from insurance with the bank they're using, up to 250,000 insured.. so you can't say that stealing from banks has any moral issues, it's just money, not like the banks don't have enough of it, and in this world where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, well somethings gotta change, that's for sure....
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sn0rlax has an excellent point. We need division of these items into their respective markets. CC is clearly a Red Market item.
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I think it's a clear cut issue.
I choose to take a drug, I'm accepting a set of risks.
Selling grandma's info is victimizing someone who hasn't
accepted that contract of risk. It can ruin people's lives.
Children's lives.
It's one thing to traffic in substances whose illegality is up for debate.
It's quite another thing to steal someone's life. Anyone who says this
is a victimless crime that only hurts banks, hasn't suffered identity
theft. It's hell.
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@ redtide thank you for being yet another - person on here with a brain. Others who differ, please read the whole thread and all of it's posts. While I respect ALL vendors' gear, I even have a post showing such respect for this - CC peddling is not for here. Just like weapons. Red Market, keep the attention divided please.... And those of you who still differ, look at my poll. lol
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I agree that cc's, weapons, prostitution, etc should be on their own seperate forum. I don't think that SR should become the "walmart of the underground" it makes it more difficult for customers to navigate the products they want because of aisles cluttered with nonsense that they are not interested in. I personally do not care one way or the other that these things are being sold, but lets keep customers that are looking for cc's shopping at the cc store! and the gun buyers shopping the gun store. and if you want a hooker, stay on craigslist!
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@ wrecthed another great clarification. More and more posts are making this clear to those who just don't understand the separation of the Black and Red markets. On a more rudimentary level these people do not understand the difference between "harming" and "not harming".
We do not need minds with the intent to harm on SRM. Again I would like to hear why if not.
Red market is not for SRM itself - does not need additional attraction, and it's not for a majority of SRM buyers. Look again, at my Poll. lol. Sorry I love typing that
Silk Road Forever and Happy July 4th.
Stay High.
~btcfreedom
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I see where you guys are coming from. I'd rather keep CCs up, but I won't mind if they get banned. Silk Road's always been about the drugs first, and that's alright with me. 8)
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Scumbags that buy and sell CC info already have their own space on the Internet that they share with the pedos. Why do they need to be here? I understand we're all criminals here and I'm cool with that, but it'd be nice to carry out an illegal transaction without feeling I'm a part of some vampire criminal organization that's taking advantage of innocents.
I didn't see any CC information up for sale but judging by this thread it does happen and if it is allowed then it raises questions about whether or not I want to do business here or not. Why is this place called the silk road? If this crap is allowed it should be called the snakes den. Reminds me of the time I went to jail and all the thieves were so juvenile and had the mental capacity as such.
I'm new here, and maybe a little bit of an idealist, but I was just hoping we could hold ourselves to a higher standard than petty criminals. They are the lowest of the low in the criminal hierarchy and the lowest of the low when it comes to morals. Christ, have some dignity and have some standards.
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@Rubberbandman - I completely agree with you, it's hard for some vendors to imagine that this stuff will have to go Red market.
Red market includes the aformentioned - pedo shit, weapons, stolen person info, and the like. I'm glad people are starting to see the light here.
We all love the Market. Let's not endanger it with gear that is simply not meant here.
Keep it up everyone - love hearing all opinions.
~btfc~
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I think my last posts may have been overzealous and should have been reserved for something like identity theft. If CC customers are simply inconvenienced with having to get their money back, I dont see this as a big a problem as I made this out to be. I do know that customers do get re-imbursed. So if in fact this is really only a crime against banks, I have no problem with it.
I will even do a complete 180 on the matter and say that I'm glad to see banks getting ripped off. Banks are the largest criminal organizations of them all. The way they weave around legislation to get money from people in unethical ways. I support ripping off the banks. I apologize for making offensive remarks towards the Robin Hoods out there.
With that being said, I do not support CC info being sold on this website. By making this website a hub for every type of criminal activity, you're making it a much more savory target for Law Enforcement. We already have the DEA, FBI, ATF and god knows what else looking at us. Do we really need the FTC, Secret Service, and Banking lobbyists trying to close the Silk Road too? FBI likes to make nice headlines like "Illegal Credit Card Trading Ring Shut Down." "Illegal Software Pirating Ring Shut Down" doesn't have the same punch and would be met with yawns from the public.
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well put, Rubberband man.
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When you steal from banks they just offload the cost onto customers. Systems are made up of individuals. It's an oversimplification to say Banks = The Man = Evil, Customer = Individual = Good.
A banks' customers are collectively responsible for the banks behaviour by choosing to bank with them or not (assuming there are other more ethical banks available).
When you steal something from someone you are breaching their consent, you shouldn't need fear of punishment to realise that is wrong.
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What is your point? You are saying that stealing information is right without their consent? and you shouldn't realize this is wrong?
Are you high? Can I have the vendor name and product? lol
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Eh, no. I didn't say that at all.
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I wouldn't say that fraud is that bad, in the end the person gets all their money back, and the banks are hit, not the person, it's a victim-less crime, you guys make it sound like it's murder.. I mean do you guys really mean to tell me that some fraudster uses your CCinfo and it ruins your lives? In that case, you were probably poor before anyone used your info, because everyone who gets frauded up, always gets their financial state back to almost like nothing ever happened, not to mention, it's actually proven that more crimes are occuring where customers of banks are now "frauding" themselves, by spending money and claiming their info was stolen, hypocrites.. :| In a way, it's probably just as bad as drug dealing, maybe a little bit less..
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@Rubberbandman - I completely agree with you, it's hard for some vendors to imagine that this stuff will have to go Red market.
Red market includes the aformentioned - pedo shit, weapons, stolen person info, and the like. I'm glad people are starting to see the light here.
We all love the Market. Let's not endanger it with gear that is simply not meant here.
Keep it up everyone - love hearing all opinions.
~btfc~
Child porn possession and weapons trafficking are not really red market actually. Red market doesn't mean everything you don't like, it means direct force / coercion are directly involved in the market. For example, if I place a gun to your head and make you buy my product at a high cost, it is red market activity. If I make you pay me protection money, it is red market. Black market is the absence of force and coercion. Selling weapons does not fall under red market, using said weapons to extort someone would. Likewise, child porn possession would not fall under red market as the consumer is not applying any force or coercion, although producing is in very many cases red market as force and even more so coercion (for example, taking advantage of naive children who trust adults) are often used. This would be the actual definitions used by most in the libertarian / anarchist part of the "political" spectrum.
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@wuuh, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Ocean_Strategy
Child Porn and Weapons Trafficking are things that not only I don't like, but the rest of the SRM community. That's all I mean to say.
What I find strange is that you singled them out - this is about the wrongness of selling CC and Personal Info. Weapons and child porn are just a part of a
different problem, which people have threads started long ago on here. I understand you use them as an example of Red market activity, but it's a little
freaky lol. Yes, force and coercion do exist in situations borne of the Red Market. They also exist in everyday life.
Anyway, we can just go sell everything including child porn and kalashnikovs at walmart now. Via BTC of course.
~b
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@wuuh, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Ocean_Strategy
Child Porn and Weapons Trafficking are things that not only I don't like, but the rest of the SRM community. That's all I mean to say.
What I find strange is that you singled them out - this is about the wrongness of selling CC and Personal Info. Weapons and child porn are just a part of a
different problem, which people have threads started long ago on here. I understand you use them as an example of Red market activity, but it's a little
freaky lol. Yes, force and coercion do exist in situations borne of the Red Market. They also exist in everyday life.
Anyway, we can just go sell everything including child porn and kalashnikovs at walmart now. Via BTC of course.
~b
I don't think what I say has ever been misinterpreted more consistently than you have managed to do. I singled them out because you listed them as red market when they would not be recognized as red market from the libertarian viewpoint, but credit card theft would be.
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u mad