Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: s1llyn355 on June 25, 2013, 12:22 am
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Everyone knows that heroin is massively addictive.
My question is... ... how addictive is it?
Do you become addicted after trying once ? twice ? five times ? ten ?
After how many doses.. does addiction come calling at the door ?
Thanks to everyone, or anyone, that replies.
s1llyn355 :-)
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Heroin (and all opiates) are extremely addictive and nobody can tell you exactly how many times you can use it without getting addicted.
That being said, you cannot get physically addicted from one use, you can get psychologically addicted however just because its a pleasurable activity.
With heroin and all opiates if one wants to avoid physical addiction try not to use multiple days in a row, and NEVER EVER use more than three days in a row. That being said, if you can manage to "only use one day a week or month" then you will not become physically addicted (ie: wont suffer withdrawals), the fact of the matter though is that most people cannot do this.
It starts with Ill only use on weekends
then its ill only use every other day
then its fuck it, Ill use every day
It all comes down to your ability to moderate your substance use. If you have an addictive personality you are highly unlikely to be able to accomplish this. Many people even say that chipping is impossible, but that's not entirely true, it can be done (I have seen it) its just extremely hard to do.
Moderation is key with this (and any addictive) substance, also do not inject unless you already have a massive habit.
With insufflation I would say its just about as addictive as other opiates like oxycodone. Plenty of people use painkillers without becoming physically addicted but it requires moderation. Once you pick up the needle though, your chances of not getting addicted diminish rapidly.
I used heroin once, enjoyed it, and never used it again (that was two years ago).
It can be tried just once... just don't make rationalizations to continue your use.
I would however honestly recommend that you don't try it at all, because why take the chance. Its really not all that rewarding.
Here is the statistics
According to a study by the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Science, 23 percent of those who try heroin become addicts.
Are you in the 23%... there's no way to know.
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i have had it twice and hated it!!!!! iv as well! never again
i was ok until i moved then i would vomit!!
that and its a shit feeling meth is much better!!
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You can avoid physical addiction by using opiates once every for days or less, but psychological addiction will still be there. Honestly it's not that bad, the next day you really feel like doing it again but that feeling goes away the next day. It's all about self control, just keep it a weekend thing and you'll be fine... If you start doing it more often than you initially planned to though, take a break!
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3 days in a row here, cause it was the new drug to try.
I know myself quite well and I don't get addicted easily to "things", but H is not a joke, so I'm not thinking to do again in a short time even if I want to.
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I too have to moderate my heroin use.. I never got into it, till I came to SR. It's a great substance if you like oxys, opanas, or some other strong opioid.
You do have to watch though as it can get a hold on you.
Never IV'ed anything. Don't plan on it. EVER
Only needles that have been in my arm are to donate plasma. :)
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See my weakness is pills. Got an insane fear of needles so the idea of ever injecting anything into myself just makes me even more afraid to try it.
Now taking a 10mg oxy while I'm sitting at my desk bored to tears at work seems much more appealing, and makes my day more bearable.
Only problem is that it's hard to only do it once. Next thing you know it's been three weeks of 'one-a-day' and one doesn't get you high anymore. You see where I'm going with this.
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^^ Yeah tolerance is a fickle bitch.
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I've been in a fist fight with tolerance since 2005 :)
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Thats where NMDA antagonists come in. Keeping tolerance in its place since 1965 (year when ketamine was invented).
Or Ibogaine, its been known to completely reset tolerance in many users. Be careful though, if you ever go back to your DOC its very possible that you will have zero tolerance. Also if you have any kind of heart condition you cannot use ibogaine as its very rough on the body and can kill via cardiac arrest.
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Damn I'm learning more on SRF then I have in 12 years of street. hah
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There's also a drug called proglumide that's extremely effective at reversing opioid tolerance and potentiating them. Opiophile has a lot of info on that.
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^^ Ah forgot about that one... +1
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You guys got my mind on a whole new mission. Research time.
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^^ Ah forgot about that one... +1
It seems like a big money saver if you use opiates, it's not psychoactive on its own so can mix opiates and that without any problems. Ketamine on the other hand isn't really the same :P Proglumide is rather hard to find though, maybe someone on SR could try to get some.
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^^ Well yeah I wouldnt suggest mixing ketamine with the opiates, more or less using ketamine on the off days to lower tolerance.
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Yeah that'd be a good idea but you shouldn't take too much ketamine either! Also, would alcohol work to reverse tolerance since it's also an NMDA antagonist or is it too weak compared to all the other GABA action and other things?
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No of course not, everything in moderation. Ketamine can be psychologically addicting in its own right.
Alcohol is a very very weak NMDA antagonist. You would be passed out from the gabaergic effects before you could get to a sufficient level of NMDA antagonism.
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That's weird because ketamine in mild doses feels kind of similar to the effects you get when really drunk.. Why does alcohol feel so dirty if it's mostly a GABA agonist? I've taken other full GABA agonists and they feel much much cleaner than alcohol. There's definitely something else than GABA.
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^^ Ah forgot about that one... +1
It seems like a big money saver if you use opiates, it's not psychoactive on its own so can mix opiates and that without any problems. Ketamine on the other hand isn't really the same :P Proglumide is rather hard to find though, maybe someone on SR could try to get some.
This link might be useful for someone with the means to buy from manufacturers:
http://www.buyersguidechem.com/chemical_supplier/Proglumide
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Benzos and such are Gaba Allosteric Modulators, not gaba agonists. Gaba A agonist would be the Z drugs, Alcohol is a Gaba B agonist (like phenibut). It has mild action on NMDA receptors and also binds directly to the receptors for acetylcholine and has some effects on serotonin although the precise effect is still not completely understood. It feels dirty because it hits so many different receptor sites.
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Heroin (and all opiates) are extremely addictive and nobody can tell you exactly how many times you can use it without getting addicted.
That being said, you cannot get physically addicted from one use, you can get psychologically addicted however just because its a pleasurable activity.
With heroin and all opiates if one wants to avoid physical addiction try not to use multiple days in a row, and NEVER EVER use more than three days in a row. That being said, if you can manage to "only use one day a week or month" then you will not become physically addicted (ie: wont suffer withdrawals), the fact of the matter though is that most people cannot do this.
It starts with Ill only use on weekends
then its ill only use every other day
then its fuck it, Ill use every day
It all comes down to your ability to moderate your substance use. If you have an addictive personality you are highly unlikely to be able to accomplish this. Many people even say that chipping is impossible, but that's not entirely true, it can be done (I have seen it) its just extremely hard to do.
Moderation is key with this (and any addictive) substance, also do not inject unless you already have a massive habit.
With insufflation I would say its just about as addictive as other opiates like oxycodone. Plenty of people use painkillers without becoming physically addicted but it requires moderation. Once you pick up the needle though, your chances of not getting addicted diminish rapidly.
I used heroin once, enjoyed it, and never used it again (that was two years ago).
It can be tried just once... just don't make rationalizations to continue your use.
I would however honestly recommend that you don't try it at all, because why take the chance. Its really not all that rewarding.
Here is the statistics
According to a study by the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Science, 23 percent of those who try heroin become addicts.
Are you in the 23%... there's no way to know.
good post :-) +1 karma point.
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Well I wasn't talking about benzos, I know they're not agonists! I was talking about things like chloral hydrate that feel much cleaner than alcohol yet similar in some ways. I just saw that alcohol is actually a PAM though and that it acts on the GABAa receptors, are you sure it's a GABAb agonist? I got that from wikipedia so maybe you know better but the source seems legit. So yeah the dirty feeling must come from the serotonin and acetylcholine probably, I thought it was because of the NMDA antagonism because of how ketamine feels similar to some aspects of drunkness.
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I have seen so many contradictory sources on the mechanism of action of alcohol. Its actually one of the less understood drugs out there. Even textbooks cant get there stories straight.
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Oh, that explains a lot :P
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I liked banginon1808's opinion. It's similar to my own experience with opium tea.
You can buy, (or could, a few years ago), opium poppy pods (dried) off ebay.
These can be used in flower arrangements,or in art classes as still-life subjects etc.
Or.. you can crush them up in a coffee grinder and mix with hot water and lemon juice
to extract the opium resin still in the pods.
I was looking forward to some kind of serene, floaty, warm experience.
pleasant and relaxing ... somehow sunny and gentle.
Instead .. it made me feel tired... i felt this spacey, cannabis-like confusion.. zoning in and out.
But it wasn't pleasant.. this was accompanied by feeling irritable, uncomfortable and impatient...
To top it all.. the next day.. i pulled a face as a red as beetroot trying to go to the toilet. Jesus!
(everyone in this thread +1 karma)
:-)
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Yeah opiates can make you irritable and not feeling well if you don't take the right dose. Usually if you take more when you're irritable like that, you'll feel good. You should maybe take less the next time you try poppy tea.
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how much heroin is generally in heroin? why isn't it always 100 per cent pure? how many mg is a point?
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"how much heroin is generally in heroin? why isn't it always 100 per cent pure? how many mg is a point?"
It sounds like someone just took all the drugs lol.
it varies, most street heroin is cut. It isn't always pure because dealers cut there dope to make more money.
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http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=23080.0
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QUOTE: -- Raoul Duke (from the link above)
...had my last bit of H on the friday just gone, i thought i might as well have a bit of a session with my last bit and then leave it for a while, it's getting a bit too much of a habit, so i had a proper blowout on friday, puked a bit then carried on with it, then woke up saturday feeling a bit sick but managed to sort the house out, cook dinner and just carry on as normal, albeit a bit of a struggle. by saturday night i was feeling fine, didn't drink any booze, obviously no H because i didn't have any, and i think i had 1 joint all day. i had a good 9 hours sleep, then sunday morning i woke up with real bad flu-like symptoms, shivers, feeling sick, and every part of my body ACHED like FUCK. since sunday morning i've been running to the loo every hour and pissing out of my arse. this morning i don't feel fluey but my back is still aching and i generally feel as if someones beaten the shit out of me. obviously my body has built some sort of physical dependence on the 1 bump nightly thing. i'm not actually craving it at all, the whole time i was doing it i never felt as if i was craving it, but its obvious my body is missing it. i had another 9 hours sleep last night and this morning i feel completely fucking drained, still aching all over like i've been beaten up and i can't concentrate on anything at work. i don't feel sick at all, i'm eating normally although my appetite has dropped a bit and i'm still running to the loo every hour. i have absolutely no desire to get any work done today and i'm just waiting for home time so i can eat something and go to bed again.
if you are thinking of trying heroin i hope the above puts it into perspective for you - i'm not saying don't try it - of course it's up to you, but if you do be prepared for the sneaky fucker working it's way into your daily life. i never did any at work or during the day, it was only ever a evening/nightly thing, but even then it's managed to make my body depend on it, even though i have never had a craving for it the way smokers would crave a cigarette. if you can stick to doing it once or twice a month you should be ok, but i thought i could do that, and even though i did for the first few months, it was there burning a hole in my pocket and nagging away in the back of my mind, then it started working its way into my weekly routine, especially after a stressful day at work.
so i'm done with this shit, it was fun while it lasted, but i feel our relationship has run it's course. i'm just glad i managed to get out now before it turned into a real life horror story
for the record - IMO coming up on a pill feels better than H, but i can only speak from snorting H, not IV'ing.
UNQUOTE
That's excellent .. thanks for linking that Raoul :-) +1
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QUOTE: -- Raoul Duke (from the link above)
...had my last bit of H on the friday just gone, i thought i might as well have a bit of a session with my last bit and then leave it for a while, it's getting a bit too much of a habit, so i had a proper blowout on friday, puked a bit then carried on with it, then woke up saturday feeling a bit sick but managed to sort the house out, cook dinner and just carry on as normal, albeit a bit of a struggle. by saturday night i was feeling fine, didn't drink any booze, obviously no H because i didn't have any, and i think i had 1 joint all day. i had a good 9 hours sleep, then sunday morning i woke up with real bad flu-like symptoms, shivers, feeling sick, and every part of my body ACHED like FUCK. since sunday morning i've been running to the loo every hour and pissing out of my arse. this morning i don't feel fluey but my back is still aching and i generally feel as if someones beaten the shit out of me. obviously my body has built some sort of physical dependence on the 1 bump nightly thing. i'm not actually craving it at all, the whole time i was doing it i never felt as if i was craving it, but its obvious my body is missing it. i had another 9 hours sleep last night and this morning i feel completely fucking drained, still aching all over like i've been beaten up and i can't concentrate on anything at work. i don't feel sick at all, i'm eating normally although my appetite has dropped a bit and i'm still running to the loo every hour. i have absolutely no desire to get any work done today and i'm just waiting for home time so i can eat something and go to bed again.
if you are thinking of trying heroin i hope the above puts it into perspective for you - i'm not saying don't try it - of course it's up to you, but if you do be prepared for the sneaky fucker working it's way into your daily life. i never did any at work or during the day, it was only ever a evening/nightly thing, but even then it's managed to make my body depend on it, even though i have never had a craving for it the way smokers would crave a cigarette. if you can stick to doing it once or twice a month you should be ok, but i thought i could do that, and even though i did for the first few months, it was there burning a hole in my pocket and nagging away in the back of my mind, then it started working its way into my weekly routine, especially after a stressful day at work.
so i'm done with this shit, it was fun while it lasted, but i feel our relationship has run it's course. i'm just glad i managed to get out now before it turned into a real life horror story
for the record - IMO coming up on a pill feels better than H, but i can only speak from snorting H, not IV'ing.
UNQUOTE
That's excellent .. thanks for linking that Raoul :-) +1
Well I used once a week, and was perfectly happy with it. It is fun while it lasts, I never woke up feeling like crap except some sniffles. I supppose if i didn't have some kind of self control It could easily become a problems, But honestly I enjoy just using it as recreation.
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Ive only done H a few times but the most I pushed it was 3 days strait on 2 different occasion and thank God I never went past that. Both times after the 3rd day I had the kicks or restless leg syndrome it fucking suck I could not sleep. But luckily thats the extent of my withdraws. I never did it more than 3 day after that and once I ran out I did not order more. So like someone else said do not go past 3 days. Even better yet dont even do it 3 days strait just to me safe.
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Yeah I find it a little disturbing that with so many full-time Heroin users amongst the forums here that this is the first time I've encountered any sort of discussion based around the nature of the addiction side of using H. It's no fucking picnic, in fact I'd describe it symptomatically the same way that the Bible describes the torment and agony of Hell.
If the OP is even still interested in reading his own thread and gets in touch with me I'm more than willing to answer your questions for you regarding how to identify the stages of addiction setting in. But I'm not going to take the time to type all that shit in vain of you not being bothered to keep up to date with your own thread.
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The question is frequently asked: Why does a man become a drug addict?
The answer is that he usually does not intend to become an addict. You don’t wake up one morning and decide to be a drug addict. It takes at least three months’ shooting twice a day to get any habit at all. And you don’t really know what junk sickness is until you have had several habits. It took me almost six months to get my first habit, and then the withdrawal symptoms were mild. I think it no exaggeration to say it takes about a year and several hundred injections to make an addict.
The questions, of course, could be asked: Why did you ever try narcotics? Why did you continue using it long enough to become an addict? You become a narcotics addict because you do not have strong motivations in the other direction. Junk wins by default. I tried it as a matter of curiosity. I drifted along taking shots when I could score. I ended up hooked. Most addicts I have talked to report a similar experience. They did not start using drugs for any reason they can remember. They just drifted along until they got hooked. If you have never been addicted, you can have no clear idea what it means to need junk with the addict’s special need. You don’t decide to be an addict. One morning you wake up sick and you’re an addict.
W. Burroughs - Junkie
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The thing with opiates/opioids (especially semi-synthetic opiates such as heroin or oxy) is this - its a really comforting class of drugs, and its very easy to do all the time. It doesn't take your will to live like alcohol or MDMA/coke/speed. Its more along the lines of marijuana where you may have that residual glow the next day, but no real hangover to speak of (at least in my experience). So its something you can feasibly do at night after work, and be all well and good the next day. You don't feel real dirty like booze and some other drugs (amphetamines and other stimulants) and they don't necessarily interfere with your normal function (depending on dose of course. If you're nodding out, than its hard to get much of anything done). You could easily do small amounts every day, even at work and no one would be the wiser (like Raoul Duke experienced). Then before you know it, you're hooked. And heroin, or any strong opiate for that matter, is a hell of a habit. You become so terrified by the thought of getting dope sick that you'll do anything you can to avoid it (some take it farther than others of course) and it becomes the primary focus of your life.
Now, with that being said, I've been doing hard opiates regularly for some 12+ years, and occasionally for 16 or 17 (since I was a kid). I would go on crazy binges where I'd eat 20 OC 40's in a day (chewed em up generally. I felt it was better than snorting) or slap on 3 100cmg duragesic patches after poking little holes in them with a needle and using a heating pad to get all the goods to come out as quick as possible. I did this for years without any issues because I never went longer than 3 days in a row with usually a week or more in between. I may have been a bit restless after a heavy bender, but no real physical withdrawals to speak of (just mild restlessness and some aches...not even nearly as bad as an alcohol hangover).
When my tolerance got to the point that pills and even fent patches just weren't really cutting it anymore (and were costing me insane amounts of money for really brief highs), I sourced out heroin. I then did heroin in a similar manner for about two years. Usually only on the weekends, with an occasional weekday every now and again. Then I befriended a dealer, and started moving dope for him. I also lost my real full time job (unrelated, the company went under), so I had a lot of time on my hands. With the ease of access, increase of free time, and the low price of dope, I started doing it every day. After about 2 months, I realized I was hooked (I'd start to get chills, watery eyes, runny nose, achy, restless at about the 12 hour mark). So I continued on for about another 8 months before I finally kicked the habit (with a lot of xanax, vistaril, immodium and a really great sitter who stayed with me for an entire week). I then remained clean from opiates of all kind for two years.
Fast forward two years later (approximately two years ago) and a dilaudid shot in the ER, and I immediately got the taste for IV dope again (I think I forgot to mention I was banging it toward the end). After successfully taking hydrocodone and oxycodone for pain for a solid three weeks, and stopping without issue, I decided to track down some dope. I then started doing what I do today - buying a gram of good dope whenever I have a bit of extra money to spend (I never sacrifice anything else for the dope. I only buy it if I have extra money to spend), but never more than 2x a month and never more than 2 days in a row (and I should say two occasions a month...I generally bang an entire gram within 24 hours). That was just over 2 years ago, and I'm still doing well. Not dependent, still have a good job, pay my bills, take care of my family, and handle my business. I found that when I'm in a good place personally, and when I keep my priorities in check, I can safely handle doing dope on a semi regular basis. I realize this is extremely difficult for most, as dope is a seductive bitch, but its certainly possible. I think the reason you don't hear about people like me is because there's no real way to track them. You can track heroin arrests, OD's, rehab admittance, etc... but how do a track a heroin user who never gets caught up in the system? Never goes to rehab? No arrests, no OD's, no visibility of any kind? The answer is you can't, at least no accurately. Even if they did a national survey, how many people do you think would actually willingly admit they're an occasional heroin user? I also take major precautions in sterilizing my dope (bacteriostatic water, micron filters, sterile vials, new needles, etc...) and even go as far as to raise the PH on tar to a neutral level when I do get it, in order to avoid the highly acidic solution from causing vascular damage and to avoid having the byproducts and adulterants crash out into my blood stream. I would suggest anyone who is using dope IV to do the same, as you can virtually eliminate all potential risk associated with IV use. Heroin, in its pure form, is essentially harmless to the body. It causes no real organic damage, and your risks are associated with improper use and impure product (OD, addiction, sepsis, endocarditis, HIV/Hep C, abscesses, vascular damage, etc...). Of course, addiction is a big risk with heroin, so I'm not saying that the drug itself poses no danger...what I'm saying is that in and of itself heroin does not cause permanent damage to your body...the improper use of it does (and the adulterants/byproducts found in street dope of course. But testing PH and getting it to a neutral level and thoroughly filtering/sterilizing your dope (really with IV use only...its not necessary with other methods) can really help reduce additional risk posed by dirty street dope to the point of nearly totally eliminating them).
Like I said, I'm not by any means saying heroin is totally harmless and without risk, or suggesting that anyone should go out and start shooting dope, as it is very very risky (especially if you can't stick to very strict guidelines)...but if you have taken the plunge and you enjoy it, just do what I do. Never more than 2x a month, and never more than 2 days in a row (and at worst, give yourself 4 days between use...that allows the dope to clear your system. If you find yourself not sticking to your own rules, then get out while you have the chance). Something like every other weekend or less, and only on Friday and Saturday. For me, that means never buying more than a gram. If I have it in the house, its very difficult for me not to use it. Not having a decent connection IRL certainly helps me with that (because I can't go buy good dope whenever I want...most of the time its low quality tar IRL, and I refuse to spend money on that). Also, doing it occasionally makes it more of a treat, something special, and its just a lot more fun and enjoyable that way. When you do it constantly, you start to have a love hate relationship with it as it becomes the main focus of your life. It looses a lot of its charm and most of its positive effects. For me, its something I look forward to...like a vacation, or a great concert/show/rave, or an out of town mistress you only bang when you're in her area but still send/receive naked pics from every now and again...you can't bang the pics, but you know damn well you'll be banging it again when you get the chance. I know that I'll do it again, and when I do it'll be great.
Wow, what a fucking rant. Sorry about that, I got a bit carried away. Just saying, I think its entirely possible to chip...its just very very difficult for most people. Set rules, and keep to them. If you can't, just stop doing it. At least for a good long while. Learn to recognize when you're fucking up, and DO NOT rationalize breaking your own rules. That's how it all begins, and once you go down that road, its very difficult to go back. Think of it this way - becoming an addict is like a cucumber becoming a pickle...once your a pickle, you can't ever go back to being a cucumber.
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The thing with opiates/opioids (especially semi-synthetic opiates such as heroin or oxy) is this - its a really comforting class of drugs, and its very easy to do all the time. It doesn't take your will to live like alcohol or MDMA/coke/speed. Its more along the lines of marijuana where you may have that residual glow the next day, but no real hangover to speak of (at least in my experience). So its something you can feasibly do at night after work, and be all well and good the next day. You don't feel real dirty like booze and some other drugs (amphetamines and other stimulants) and they don't necessarily interfere with your normal function (depending on dose of course. If you're nodding out, than its hard to get much of anything done). You could easily do small amounts every day, even at work and no one would be the wiser (like Raoul Duke experienced). Then before you know it, you're hooked. And heroin, or any strong opiate for that matter, is a hell of a habit. You become so terrified by the thought of getting dope sick that you'll do anything you can to avoid it (some take it farther than others of course) and it becomes the primary focus of your life.
Now, with that being said, I've been doing hard opiates regularly for some 12+ years, and occasionally for 16 or 17 (since I was a kid). I would go on crazy binges where I'd eat 20 OC 40's in a day (chewed em up generally. I felt it was better than snorting) or slap on 3 100cmg duragesic patches after poking little holes in them with a needle and using a heating pad to get all the goods to come out as quick as possible. I did this for years without any issues because I never went longer than 3 days in a row with usually a week or more in between. I may have been a bit restless after a heavy bender, but no real physical withdrawals to speak of (just mild restlessness and some aches...not even nearly as bad as an alcohol hangover).
When my tolerance got to the point that pills and even fent patches just weren't really cutting it anymore (and were costing me insane amounts of money for really brief highs), I sourced out heroin. I then did heroin in a similar manner for about two years. Usually only on the weekends, with an occasional weekday every now and again. Then I befriended a dealer, and started moving dope for him. I also lost my real full time job (unrelated, the company went under), so I had a lot of time on my hands. With the ease of access, increase of free time, and the low price of dope, I started doing it every day. After about 2 months, I realized I was hooked (I'd start to get chills, watery eyes, runny nose, achy, restless at about the 12 hour mark). So I continued on for about another 8 months before I finally kicked the habit (with a lot of xanax, vistaril, immodium and a really great sitter who stayed with me for an entire week). I then remained clean from opiates of all kind for two years.
Fast forward two years later (approximately two years ago) and a dilaudid shot in the ER, and I immediately got the taste for IV dope again (I think I forgot to mention I was banging it toward the end). After successfully taking hydrocodone and oxycodone for pain for a solid three weeks, and stopping without issue, I decided to track down some dope. I then started doing what I do today - buying a gram of good dope whenever I have a bit of extra money to spend (I never sacrifice anything else for the dope. I only buy it if I have extra money to spend), but never more than 2x a month and never more than 2 days in a row (and I should say two occasions a month...I generally bang an entire gram within 24 hours). That was just over 2 years ago, and I'm still doing well. Not dependent, still have a good job, pay my bills, take care of my family, and handle my business. I found that when I'm in a good place personally, and when I keep my priorities in check, I can safely handle doing dope on a semi regular basis. I realize this is extremely difficult for most, as dope is a seductive bitch, but its certainly possible. I think the reason you don't hear about people like me is because there's no real way to track them. You can track heroin arrests, OD's, rehab admittance, etc... but how do a track a heroin user who never gets caught up in the system? Never goes to rehab? No arrests, no OD's, no visibility of any kind? The answer is you can't, at least no accurately. Even if they did a national survey, how many people do you think would actually willingly admit they're an occasional heroin user? I also take major precautions in sterilizing my dope (bacteriostatic water, micron filters, sterile vials, new needles, etc...) and even go as far as to raise the PH on tar to a neutral level when I do get it, in order to avoid the highly acidic solution from causing vascular damage and to avoid having the byproducts and adulterants crash out into my blood stream. I would suggest anyone who is using dope IV to do the same, as you can virtually eliminate all potential risk associated with IV use. Heroin, in its pure form, is essentially harmless to the body. It causes no real organic damage, and your risks are associated with improper use and impure product (OD, addiction, sepsis, endocarditis, HIV/Hep C, abscesses, vascular damage, etc...). Of course, addiction is a big risk with heroin, so I'm not saying that the drug itself poses no danger...what I'm saying is that in and of itself heroin does not cause permanent damage to your body...the improper use of it does (and the adulterants/byproducts found in street dope of course. But testing PH and getting it to a neutral level and thoroughly filtering/sterilizing your dope (really with IV use only...its not necessary with other methods) can really help reduce additional risk posed by dirty street dope to the point of nearly totally eliminating them).
Like I said, I'm not by any means saying heroin is totally harmless and without risk, or suggesting that anyone should go out and start shooting dope, as it is very very risky (especially if you can't stick to very strict guidelines)...but if you have taken the plunge and you enjoy it, just do what I do. Never more than 2x a month, and never more than 2 days in a row (and at worst, give yourself 4 days between use...that allows the dope to clear your system. If you find yourself not sticking to your own rules, then get out while you have the chance). Something like every other weekend or less, and only on Friday and Saturday. For me, that means never buying more than a gram. If I have it in the house, its very difficult for me not to use it. Not having a decent connection IRL certainly helps me with that (because I can't go buy good dope whenever I want...most of the time its low quality tar IRL, and I refuse to spend money on that). Also, doing it occasionally makes it more of a treat, something special, and its just a lot more fun and enjoyable that way. When you do it constantly, you start to have a love hate relationship with it as it becomes the main focus of your life. It looses a lot of its charm and most of its positive effects. For me, its something I look forward to...like a vacation, or a great concert/show/rave, or an out of town mistress you only bang when you're in her area but still send/receive naked pics from every now and again...you can't bang the pics, but you know damn well you'll be banging it again when you get the chance. I know that I'll do it again, and when I do it'll be great.
Wow, what a fucking rant. Sorry about that, I got a bit carried away. Just saying, I think its entirely possible to chip...its just very very difficult for most people. Set rules, and keep to them. If you can't, just stop doing it. At least for a good long while. Learn to recognize when you're fucking up, and DO NOT rationalize breaking your own rules. That's how it all begins, and once you go down that road, its very difficult to go back. Think of it this way - becoming an addict is like a cucumber becoming a pickle...once your a pickle, you can't ever go back to being a cucumber.
Wow!! Finally now where starting to see proper input on this topic. I have several people message me personally from the Heroin associated threads here amongst the forums and three quarters of the time they're getting in touch with me to help them understand the nature of what they're going through. Alot of them haven't even realised that they're addicted even though they've been ordering grams off SR every week and it's not until they run out of product and can't order more that they realise just how much trouble they're in. Raoul Duke said it best, even though he was only using a bump here and a bump there every day and it didn't seem like any sort of amount that you could get addicted to it was the act of spoon-feeding your brain all extra that Dopamine every day of the week that leads your brain to relying on it to make you feel normal again.
They say that it only takes 21 days of repeatedly doing something to develop or break a habit. For instance, if you're trying to change your sleeping pattern than by sticking to the same routine for 3-4 weeks you will develop that new habit / routine generally around the 21st day. This isn't an exact figure to live by and can differ by (give or take) a few days each way. With that being said if you can make it through the 7 days of physical withdrawals you're still going to have at least 2 weeks of constant cravings for Heroin (or the said opiate) but as you approach the beginning of the third week (i.e. the 21st day) those cravings start to subside quite substantially. But I know alot of ex-heroin addicts who claim that they still get urges every now and then to this very day but they're nowhere near as powerful as they were when they were full-fledged addicts.
How many of you guys have tried Suboxone/Subutex for maintenance of withdrawals? I did it but eventually swapped to Methadone because I found that it didn't address the psychological aspect to the addiction and I was still using on top of the Buprenorphine (even though I knew that I wouldn't feel the gear) just to silence the voice in my head telling me to go out and cop.
Hope y'all are safe no matter where you are what your up to! Take it easy guys.
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Personally, I would opt for subs over 'done. I've personally seen people go through hell with 'done. 2 people I know had their heart stops due to an electrical abnormality caused by 'done. Look up methadone and sudden death. Both of them were in their 20's and were otherwise healthy people with no preexisting conditions that would lead to this. They were going to the same clinic, and were both on obscene doses (like 250mg+). Plus getting off of 'done is much harder than getting off dope. People in treatment for dope are off of detox meds in a week...methadone, it can take a couple months. The thing is with 'done, it will control cravings for the most part (depends on dose), so it does have some benefits over subs in that regard. If you do opt for done, keep the dose as low as you can to prevent the really nasty side effects. Certainly do not go so low that you're sick and craving, but don't keep asking for constant increases as you will likely get it. If you would like to keep getting high without having to deal with getting sick, opt for subs (a sub doc) and keep the dose low.
A buddy of mine that was on 'done for a decade told me that if you want to keep getting high on dope occasionally, you really have to keep the dose under 80mg. He also told me a little trick - he said if you decrease your dose enough that you feel mild withdrawals in the morning, you will get high off your dose when you do take it. That's right, lowering your dose in order to induce very mild withdrawals allows you to get high off the methadone again. Like I said, he was a long term methadone patient (still is as far as I know), and had the weekly take home doses he would keep in a lock box, so we was able to do things like that...skip days, take half doses, save up big doses, etc... He was a wealth of information (a 50 year old long term opiate/opioid addict).
For me if I was to get addicted, I would go on subs and I would keep the dose as low as possible (like 2mg, as long as that would hold me). The reason being is, getting on a maintenance med I really wouldn't be trying to quit (unless forced by probation or something). I would just be trying to maintain without having to get sick. If you go to a sub doc, you get a script for a month rather than going to a 'done clinic and having to attend for a year before you get weekend take homes. You could easily stop taking your subs, wait until you get sick, and then do some dope and get fucked up. Shit, you could even binge for 3 weeks on dope, quit cold turkey, and just take the subs you have stocked up once you get sick. The maintenance meds for most people just don't do it, because they really don't get you high, so you'll just end up getting fucked up on something else instead(like crack or benzos for instance). I mean, methadone does get you high at first, but that shit sucks. After a while all it does is keep you from getting sick and block any other opioid that you take, so you can't get high if you tried. And if you're attending a clinic, you can't just skip a few doses without potentially being kicked out of the program.
That's my 2 cents about that. Take it for what its worth. I think methadone is fine, its just more of a hassle than bupe and it comes with a lot more risks. I used to watch morbidly obese people with walkers and oxygen tanks going into the clinic in the morning to dose. Whether the 'done caused it or not, I don't know, but a lot of those cats looked rough (not emaciated like junky's...most were fat as hell). But I've personally seen 'done fuck people up worse than the dope that sent them to the clinic in the first place. So I would avoid 'done altogether. But if 'done works for you, who am I to judge?
Now I'm gonna go smoke a joint...enjoy your evenings (or mornings, wherever you're at)
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High on some good dope, feeling like talking, so im gunna share my experience on addiction I've learned from the past 6 years of being an opiate addict:
1. You only feel withdrawals around the time you're used to doing dope: When I first started, like the above poster, I took 15mg of hydrocodone every night and played World of Warcraft. I had tons of fun, played WoW for a few hour, and slept great. I never did anything during the day and always waited until at least 9pm to take my tabs. My first withdrawals was when I went to my grandma's in another state and didn't even think about taking anything, I didn't even realize I was in withdrawals until much later.
TO SUM UP THIS POINT: I felt pretty normal during the day, because I wasn't used to doing opiates during the day, it was only at night that I noticed the withdrawals (not being able to sleep, restless legs, etc) of course I had a few leftover symptoms during the day but nothing big (diarrhea, runny nose, etc.)
2. You have to actually get "fucked up" to be addicted to opiates, and have withdrawals, or at least mental withdrawals: Both my mom and grandmother have been prescribed hydrocodone for years, and take correctly (not abuse like me lol). They've both had to quit suddenly, and did not go through withdrawals. Maybe a few MINOR physical, but nothing mental like depression or anxiety. My mom is taking hydrocodone still, and actually takes benadryl a lot of nights to help her sleep because she is used to the hydrocodone, it doesn't make her sleep like she used to.
TO SUM UP THIS POINT: This was a big revelation to me, for years I thought just if someone took an opiate multiple times a day, every day for months or years would be an addict, and go through withdrawals. What makes the difference is if you keep upping your dose, to feel the euphoria, and other effects. This leads to my next point...
3. Opiate Withdrawal is the reverse of all the effects you get when on them: This may be stupidly obvious to some, but it took me a while to realize it.
- Euphoria is caused by release of endorphins, serotonin, dopamine, etc. In W/D you are back at baseline serotonin levels, with no boost that your body is used to so you're depressed, and anxious. (Also, if you've become tolerant to your dose you don't get that same boost of serotonin, so no noticeable withdrawal like I mentioned above.)
- Central Nervous System is depressed, causing your body to feel less pain and muscles to be very relaxed. In W/D your muscles are like WTF MATE I'm used to being relaxed, so they freak out, causing the aches, pains, and of course the WORST thing in the world: RESTLESS FUCKING LEGS
- Constipates you (at least in early stages, still affects your bowels even after using a while and stop getting constipated) In W/D your bowels are used to slowing down and constipating, so they reverse and speed up, making you have explosive diarrhea every 5 goddamn minutes.
- Not totally sure on this one, but I think the histamines that are released that make you itch, is what in W/D's gives you the runny nose, watering eyes, etc.
- And last but not least, opiates make you sleep like a fuckin' rock, usually the whole night with no interruptions, so in W/D sleep is very sparse, and doesn't last very long.
Done, hope this wall of text isn't too big!
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High on some good dope, feeling like talking, so im gunna share my experience on addiction I've learned from the past 6 years of being an opiate addict:
1. You only feel withdrawals around the time you're used to doing dope: When I first started, like the above poster, I took 15mg of hydrocodone every night and played World of Warcraft. I had tons of fun, played WoW for a few hour, and slept great. I never did anything during the day and always waited until at least 9pm to take my tabs. My first withdrawals was when I went to my grandma's in another state and didn't even think about taking anything, I didn't even realize I was in withdrawals until much later.
TO SUM UP THIS POINT: I felt pretty normal during the day, because I wasn't used to doing opiates during the day, it was only at night that I noticed the withdrawals (not being able to sleep, restless legs, etc) of course I had a few leftover symptoms during the day but nothing big (diarrhea, runny nose, etc.)
2. You have to actually get "fucked up" to be addicted to opiates, and have withdrawals, or at least mental withdrawals: Both my mom and grandmother have been prescribed hydrocodone for years, and take correctly (not abuse like me lol). They've both had to quit suddenly, and did not go through withdrawals. Maybe a few MINOR physical, but nothing mental like depression or anxiety. My mom is taking hydrocodone still, and actually takes benadryl a lot of nights to help her sleep because she is used to the hydrocodone, it doesn't make her sleep like she used to.
TO SUM UP THIS POINT: This was a big revelation to me, for years I thought just if someone took an opiate multiple times a day, every day for months or years would be an addict, and go through withdrawals. What makes the difference is if you keep upping your dose, to feel the euphoria, and other effects. This leads to my next point...
3. Opiate Withdrawal is the reverse of all the effects you get when on them: This may be stupidly obvious to some, but it took me a while to realize it.
- Euphoria is caused by release of endorphins, serotonin, dopamine, etc. In W/D you are back at baseline serotonin levels, with no boost that your body is used to so you're depressed, and anxious. (Also, if you've become tolerant to your dose you don't get that same boost of serotonin, so no noticeable withdrawal like I mentioned above.)
- Central Nervous System is depressed, causing your body to feel less pain and muscles to be very relaxed. In W/D your muscles are like WTF MATE I'm used to being relaxed, so they freak out, causing the aches, pains, and of course the WORST thing in the world: RESTLESS FUCKING LEGS
- Constipates you (at least in early stages, still affects your bowels even after using a while and stop getting constipated) In W/D your bowels are used to slowing down and constipating, so they reverse and speed up, making you have explosive diarrhea every 5 goddamn minutes.
- Not totally sure on this one, but I think the histamines that are released that make you itch, is what in W/D's gives you the runny nose, watering eyes, etc.
- And last but not least, opiates make you sleep like a fuckin' rock, usually the whole night with no interruptions, so in W/D sleep is very sparse, and doesn't last very long.
Done, hope this wall of text isn't too big!
You've done an excellent job on describing the withdrawals Baconbits32. You're right in saying that it is the exact opposite of being under the influence of the said opiate. And you're right about the histamines causing the itching sensations. Basically everything you said was correct and any "aspiring" heroin users should definitely take heed to our very well described warning. If I were fortunate enough to have my so called "friends" that lead me to using H in the first place explain to me just how habit sets in and you won't even realize it until you're under it's thumb.
Agh man I can't wait for my China White to get here!! These pretzels are making me thirsty!!