Silk Road forums
Discussion => Newbie discussion => Topic started by: invisibleteam69 on September 10, 2013, 10:02 am
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As an established buyer on SR but with very little posting on the forums (hence this being in the newbie discussion), I was hoping someone, maybe a Mod or anyone would take notice to this. I've thought about this for quite sometime and while just like everything else there are pros/cons to things and change takes some time to get used to and I totally get that, but I also feel like we could make it better.
Now, as a fan of the new system, I do think something needs to be done about the new feedback system and how it works. As many of you know and will probably disagree with my opinion, I liked being allowed to edit your feedback/change your rating (without it being removed completely) because I often FE and have always kept my word when I said I'd update later. The problem now is, you CAN'T.
I've read both sides of the argument and I'm sure this isn't going to do anything, especially considering where it's getting posted, but I think being able to change feedback is one of the things that helped keep scammers away. I mean most of you watched as PlanetExpress made off with 25k+ like it was nothing (and yes I know some people, either because they weren't on the forums, refused to listen, or whatever the case may be continued to FE), I think that's a perfect example of why a change needs to be made to the feedback system.
My proposal:
Just like when you edit a post here on the forums, it shows the time stamp and what not of the edit, maybe it's possible we (the SR community/staff) implement a similar type of aspect to our review/feedback system even altering a bit where it would show the initial feedback and any changes that were made (almost like the "track changes" feature in MS Word, albeit to a whole different degree and not necessarily to that extreme, yet sort of serving the same purpose).
Basically in essence, I'm hoping someone (DPR, a SR Staff Member, a Mod, or someone who can get shit done) sees this and at least makes a note of it because I was a big fan of editing my feedback (especially after FE) but regardless, I think being able to change it, whether it be after a certain time (1 month) or whatever, something needs to be done because now you have vendors where there are slight hiccups or whatever who do everything they can to rectify the situation, but buyers, having left a rating/review, can't do anything to change what they'd previously wrote and thus a vendor's reputation goes down even if they do everything they possibly can to fix it. At the same time, the recent publicity has only brought more people to the site (which I'm totally fine with too) but I feel like with the target on our backs already, a change which would allow edited feedback and thus could warn would-be buyers of a vendor looking to make some cash and run like PE, would only help and add an extra layer of security while also bringing more buyers to the site.
Anyways, I'm sure my little post in the noob section isn't gonna mean dick but I figured I'd offer my opinion because I'm really tired of reading scam after scam and hearing people bitch and moan about being scammed because in the end, we use SR with the feeling of "security" that makes going out and buying drugs on the street seem like ancient history and gives us the peace of mind we didn't have before. We, being the SR community as whole however, haven't made it this far to fail so I think my aformentioned proposal (even if just tweaks were made to it) would do the community as a whole, some good.
Feel free to voice your opinions/blast me for mine
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1st of all: it's great to see a well written, well spelled, well punctuated, eloquent post.
If I could give Karma, I would.
Secondly: I couldn't agree more. The fact that feedback, once left, is either set in stone or deletable, removes some of its effectiveness, in my opinion.
The whole concept of a changelog for comments makes so much sense, i.e. you can see how each individual transaction went, from start to finish, which would be especially useful in circumstances where people have FE'd.
I'd love to see this happen.
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1st of all: it's great to see a well written, well spelled, well punctuated, eloquent post.
If I could give Karma, I would.
Secondly: I couldn't agree more. The fact that feedback, once left, is either set in stone or deletable, removes some of its effectiveness, in my opinion.
The whole concept of a changelog for comments makes so much sense, i.e. you can see how each individual transaction went, from start to finish, which would be especially useful in circumstances where people have FE'd.
I'd love to see this happen.
I appreciate the kind words Feesh. I was hoping this post could generate enough of a discussion where someone of importance would actually see it, but given that you're the only one to reply (and that it's in the noob section), it looks as though that is not going to happen.
Anyways, the second point you make is EXACTLY what I'm trying to get at because it is not only unfair to vendors but fellow/prospective buyers as well. If a vendor tries to make good on a purchase gone wrong, or the product is tried after a review/rating is left, it only makes sense that a buyer be able to edit his or her feedback to give credit where credit is due. On the same note, as much as the SR staff warns against buyers FE'ing, it's becoming even more of a commonplace with the constant scamming and BS we've seen the site endure, especially of late, and thus, by taking away a buyer's ability to edit and/or update their feedback, we are essentially encouraging exit scams (PlanetExpress is the first to come to my mind, given that he/she was the latest to betray our community) to take place.
It seems every day, there are more vendors asking customers to FE in addition to vendors who's profiles complain about and/or detail their issues with customers not finalizing soon enough upon the arrival of their order. Thus, many buyers, myself included, finalize as soon as they receive their order and can access SR, without necessarily getting the time to do anything with it except stashing it somewhere for "later". Now, I totally understand where they are coming from, as it's a business and it's hard to keep the "flow" of things if you will, running smoothly if buyers are waiting to finalize their order(s). However, like I previously stated, buyers often order a product and upon receipt, leave a rating/review without actually trying or testing what they've purchased until a later time or date (perhaps a festival that weekend or later that very same day/night, whatever the case may be). With that being said, if a vendor comes through and delivers on a product they've put their "name" on, I believe a buyer should be able to comment on the quality of the product after trying it. At the same time, if it's something contrary to what they ordered or reagent tests prove it's not what the vendor says it is, the ability to edit/update your feedback is critical, in my opinion, to the continued success of SR as it "rewards" the vendors who sell what they say they are selling while giving customers the added peace of mind that their BTC is being spent in the right place/with the right person.
All in all, I was really hoping to log back in today to see what other forum members' opinions were, in the hopes that my "proposal", could generate enough of a discussion to maybe catch someone's eye. Unfortunately, the circumstances don't exactly tip the scales in my favor, (in terms of having the "right" person take notice of my idea) but if a mod, SR staff member, the great DPR himself, or even just a forum member (with 50+ posts who copies a link to this page into the "Silk Road Discussion" section) could see what I have to say, I really think it would be for the better.
Thank you Feesh for your response and I hope that others can agree, or at least see where I'm coming from. SR is a revolutionary enterprise and will continue to prosper under the guidance of DPR and the help of his staff, along with the many vendors who offer the great products that they do, in addition to the buyers that fuel the "cash cow" the site has become. If you can believe in that as symbolizing the sort of "bigger picture", the members of our community, in a VERY general sense, represent (albeit on a very basic level) MANY different pieces to the same puzzle. Therefore, we have come together to co-exist, as we continue to fight those who try to keep us from our very birthrights as human beings. Nevertheless, I truly believe that in order to maximize its potential, rebuff would-be scammers, and continue to thrive and transform the way people can self-medicate and enjoy some of life's greatest pleasures (yes, those that have been taken away from us by a collection of "know-it-all's" who think they have the best intentions of "everyone as a whole" in mind) something needs to change. I think that change starts with "cleaning-up" the site and ridding it of those who abuse its privilege(s) while continuing to allow those who don't, a place to call "home" where, in an ideal world, buyers know what they are purchasing and get what vendors are actually selling, while the rest of the community can continue to go about their lives knowing that we stand together in our fight for true "justice and equality".
Long live SR!
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I completely agree, especially as most of the buyers on this bit of the forum are noobs, now without the 'threat' of bad feedback the less trustworthy vendors use it to scam people after finalizing early. Theres are spome who dont require it, but many who do, especially as a new buyer, so i completely get where you're coming from
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Concerning Planet Express? When he came back as KetamineOcean, in a very quick time period he had over 50 discussions on his vendor page warning people it was a scam. Seems to me the update made it much easier to spot a scammer, rather than wait for FE feedback to be updated.
As well, just my personal opinion, but I don't care if it makes it harder for those that FE. FE is not supported by the resolution center. FE is discouraged in the buyers guide. FE is strongly discouraged here in the forums, by buyers and staff. If someone chooses to go outside the protections built into the system and FE's, you are on your own and should not expect the protection that is awarded to everyone that understands this and doesn't FE.
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I think it'd be even better to get a post on the front pain or something, expressing how important it is to do PROPER research before buying, because many people are just jumping in, getting btc, placing orders, FE and getting ripped off. I almost did with Dr Holland but i read his profile and saw that he'd started to turn a bit scam so i said i'd finalize when received and not before
If there was a clear post on the SR homepage, saying to check the vendors feedback fully, the vendors discussion page and forum threads about him then there would be a lot lest noobs being scammed. Also make a update post on the front page about being unable to edit feedback, so NOT to leave feedback until you've received, even if you finalized early against all advice, lots of people dont seen to have realized that they cant update anymore, look at all the 'FE will update when arrived' posts on loads of items.
Anyway i'm fairly new here, and that's just my 2c, when i signed up i did read the stuff luckily, but a lazy guy wouldn't know/bother unless there was link on the homepage on how to get the best idea about a vendor etc.
On the flip side maybe itd teach the people to be a bit patient and do research in future, but i don't believe anyone deserves to be scammed and it might even put buyers off returning in future, losing legit vendors and SR monies
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Concerning Planet Express? When he came back as KetamineOcean, in a very quick time period he had over 50 discussions on his vendor page warning people it was a scam. Seems to me the update made it much easier to spot a scammer, rather than wait for FE feedback to be updated.
As well, just my personal opinion, but I don't care if it makes it harder for those that FE. FE is not supported by the resolution center. FE is discouraged in the buyers guide. FE is strongly discouraged here in the forums, by buyers and staff. If someone chooses to go outside the protections built into the system and FE's, you are on your own and should not expect the protection that is awarded to everyone that understands this and doesn't FE.
I get that and have utilized the discussion sections quite a bit but regardless, I can't tell you how many reviews I've read where people say what they have to say and have something along the lines of, "looks good, will try later". So, FE or not (and I don't FE often, just the vendors with whom I've had successful transactions with and are legit), a vendor who screws a buyer on a transaction will generally already have a rating/review left for their product(s), while walking away with their money which at that point, is completely out of the SR staff's hands. Furthermore, most of the idiots on SR either one, don't even think to write/update in the discussion section and/or two, place it in the wrong area (i.e. the specific item's description section as opposed to the main vendor's page or whatever).
I do agree with CLK in that if we really want to build upon our successes and continue to grow and prosper, I think a sort of "requirement" (almost like a terms and conditions contract) should be part of the registration process. I'm willing to bet, more than half of SR's users don't utilize the forums or frankly, even know they exist as well as, don't bother to read the discussion sections/do their research on the vendor (as I believe everyone should) before making a purchase. While it's no fault but their own, these folks are generally the one's who allow vendors like PE to make off with thousands of dollars but the new feedback isn't gonna change shit if the "victims" (again I agree that's on them) simply write their reviews and then try to take their problem to the resolution center.
If you read my initial post, you'd see my suggestion about implementing a change where one could see what was originally written, what was changed, and then obviously, what was left as a whole representing a sort of summary if you will. So basically, you're looking at the details, in a way, of the overall transaction and now with the new alias feature, it would keep buyer's anonymity safe while also warning prospective buyers but more importantly REWARDING/COMMENDING the vendors who stay true to their word because at the end of the day, ANYBODY can write in the discussion sections so who's to say it's not another vendor who signed up with a new account and goes to the discussion section of a "rival" vendor to bad mouth him in the hopes those reading maybe buy his product instead. At least with my proposed change, and I'm not saying it's the golden ticket to success and doesn't need a few tweaks of its own, it would give buyers a better idea of what they are purchasing and who from meaning a greater peace of mind which, at the end of the day, I think, is most important to the buyers who actually give a shit and know what they're doing. Taking a step back and looking at SR as a whole, without buyers spending their money with vendors and then SR taking their cut, if (and I know this isn't going to happen nor do I want it to) buyers were to stop purchasing items from SR all together, there goes all vendor's profits, all of SR's commission, and people will go back to the streets for their product so I think it's very important that buyers be confident in how they spend their money and whom they spend it with.
Simply put, the new system is not going to make scams similar to PE's impossible, harder maybe, but I'll be here waiting to read about the next one when it comes along because it's inevitable. Until then, I'll be sticking to the vendors who I trust and laughing with my friends as we watch scumbag after scumbag abuse the site's privilege all the while knowing, something could be done to make it better for the community as a whole. I know it will never be perfect but in the words of the great Michael Jordan, "I can accept failure, everyone fails at something. But I can't accept not trying."
This is just me "trying" and by trying, I'm simply attempting to "survive and make good out of the dirty, nasty, unbelievable lifestyle that's been given to me." Thank you Tupac Shakur for those words of wisdom and I'll leave you with all of that as a food for thought.
I wish nothing but longevity and prosperity for the site and everyone who uses it, and I hope to still be able to call SR my "home" for many years to come.
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Hmm, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I kinda understand why the system was changed, but right now it becomes much easier for vendors to have buyers finalize early as they have a much lower risk for getting a bad review or low ranking. And possibly even the worst thing about this is that it will mainly affect the newer users too.
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And possibly even the worst thing about this is that it will mainly affect the newer users too.
Absolutely. Or buyers that cycle through accounts, but generally, buyers that buy <personal use quantities> should avoid vendors that require FE. For volume orders, I understand requiring FE but even a n00b buyer should steer clear of someone who absolutely requires they FE for a few measly grams.
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It would be great if we could edit our feedback. I'm a relatively new user with a few transactions, but never had to FE and don't plan on it. Still, it would change things for the better if we could update feedback, I think. Like you said, it's nice to be able to post something and "update later"- like for example when you receive some psychedelics in a timely fashion so you post feedback but you haven't eaten them yet.
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Am i right in thinking once you've finalized, you dont have to leave a rating or review? So if you FE then you could hold on on giving feedback if/when you've recieved. I only noticed this recently, would be great if someone could confirm/deny this
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agreed CLK, if people FE because they are required too and leave a review for a product they have yet to receive it kinda defeats the whole purpose.
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Am i right in thinking once you've finalized, you dont have to leave a rating or review? So if you FE then you could hold on on giving feedback if/when you've recieved. I only noticed this recently, would be great if someone could confirm/deny this
That is correct. I have also pointed that out numerous times.
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Hm, it seems to be very few people who know this, maybe someone who can should post a newsletter about it? Or make it come up on the text when you click finalize? It would make feedback much more accurate, especially for those vendors who require FE.
Is there any kind of time limit that you have to leave feedback in after finalizing?
Also imo cheap lottery games shouldn't be allowed to be left a rating, not saying this has happened as i'm sure it hasnt but a twat could sign up, post loads of good cheap lottery listings and get hundreds of 5/5 feedback, the list up some drugs and scam & run
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It does seem to me that being able to edit the feedback on at least one's most recent transaction with a vendor would be better for everyone. Yes, feedback can apparently be left to any time after finalizing (cluttering up one's 'Orders' page) and further comments can be left on discussion pages and forum threads, but this is the Internet where new users sitting comfortably behind their keyboards don't read or research everything before acting. I have also read a number of forum posts complaining that people often submit ratings in error and are unable to correct their mistakes even if noticing them immediately after clicking the button.
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True, it would be useful to be able to change it, but it also teaches valuable lesson to DO YOU RESEARCH before ordering, just because people generally don't doesn't mean we should cater to them (with the problems it bring too). & there's no lesson like a bit of lost money to make it stick. That probably sounds a bit harsh, but i'm also speaking from experience, encouraging the dive in without research behavior is downright dangerous when it comes to drugs.
The ones who submit a rating then realize its wrong, thats pretty unfortunate but i can't see a way of fixing that without a lot of hard work form mods by a case by case basis, or changing the system which allows pricks to blackmail vendors with bad feedback (which from what i've read used to happen quite a lot)
IMO its the lesser of 2 evils, not ideal but when dealing with drugs it never will be until the laws are changed, and the escrow system is fantastic.
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The impression I have from what I've read is that blackmail tended to involve the threat of changing many previous feedbacks. Shouldn't restricting changes to just the most recent with a particular vendor (I forget who initially proposed this) severely reduce the potential impact of such abuse?
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I like the changelog idea, so you could leave feedback when you finalize, but then there would be a second section for later feedback. This would be great for psychedelics when you get them and wait a week or two before trying them. You could comment on how great the shipping and stealth was, and then a week later, add that the LSD was super clean.
Another Idea would be to have feedback broken down into sections, you'd leave a review for the shipping, and wait to fill in the other section which could be product quality.
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Hm, it seems to be very few people who know this, maybe someone who can should post a newsletter about it? Or make it come up on the text when you click finalize? It would make feedback much more accurate, especially for those vendors who require FE.
Is there any kind of time limit that you have to leave feedback in after finalizing?
Actually, when you finalize, here is the text that comes up:
* DO NOT leave a rating if you are still waiting on your order!
** All ratings are final. Do not leave a rating expecting to change it later. Make every attempt you can to resolve problems with your vendor before rating.
*** Click here for more information.
Seems pretty self explanatory to me?
When you submit a rating, the next page will say:
Rating submitted! Click here to write a review for your transaction.
Again, can't really understand what is confusing some folks? Seems pretty straight forward to me?
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^Didnt realize that!, There's some pretty dull tool in the box here though.. tbh i think the systems great if people just stop leaving feedback etc after finalizing straight away, skewers it a bit
And that aint the admins fault at all, just daft users. Other than that, no complains! :)
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Unfortunately, the daft users screw up the feedback for all of us. Surely helping them to be less daft would help everyone.
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Unfortunately, the daft users screw up the feedback for all of us. Surely helping them to be less daft would help everyone.
Haha, they should have a tutorial level for new accounts before they get to buy anything ;)
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+1, thats actually a really good idea!
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… Shouldn't restricting changes to just the most recent with a particular vendor (I forget who initially proposed this) …
Ah, I think it was Hungry ghost.
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Unfortunately, the daft users screw up the feedback for all of us. Surely helping them to be less daft would help everyone.
EXACTLY! New users who have no idea what they are really doing on SR, essentially abuse the system in place. If there were some way for users to go through a sort of "training" if you will, I think it would really clean up the site.
On a totally separate note:
Cheers to the end of one of our competitors in Atlantis! I'll be drinking to that tonight.