Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: mnak on October 04, 2013, 05:41 pm
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The indictment indicates that the US gov't produced/sold/delivered a 1kg mixture containing cocaine for $27k.
assholes.
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If you think the US government selling drugs is new news, you are dead late to the game. Maybe about 30-40 years late
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I had thought the US gov't use of CIs was a cheap trick around the problem.
It is true that until SR I didn't realize just how wrong the US gov't is. The war on drugs is worse than a failure.
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The indictment indicates that the US gov't produced/sold/delivered a 1kg mixture containing cocaine for $27k.
Is that not entrapment?
No. They make controlled deals all of the time. Did they coerce the person into buying it?
Entrapment means that they coerce you into committing a crime that you otherwise would not have committed. If you're logging on to SR to buy drugs, you can't use entrapment as a defense if you buy from an uncover LEO.
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So can law enforcement create a vendor account and sell real drugs to thousands of people and only then bust them?
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@mnak - NO
Read complaint careful.
They insist use bank wire instead of bitcoin (BREAK RULE #1), same way they take down many operation, always use money outside of BTC.
They suggest NOT to use USPS and deliver personally. (BREAK RULE #2). If they use USPS they cannot send REAL drug. If mail get lost or opened then real drug would get in hands of other people and cannot do this.
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So can law enforcement create a vendor account and sell real drugs to thousands of people and only then bust them?
Yes they can, although in most cases they wouldn't be interested in doing that. Usually they pose as buyers. That's not entrapment either though. They're not looking to bust small time buyers. But if you're buying kilos of coke, you're probably NOT buying them for your personal stash.
It's not even close entrapment. They didn't direct you to SR; they didn't even direct you to their vendor account.
The government (both federal and state) having been doing controlled buys since long before SR even existed. They set up the transaction and usually bust you as soon as the money changes hands.
To give you another example, they do stings where they have undercover officers pose as prostitutes. When the john picks up the hooker and money changes hands, they arrest them.
It's not entrapment because the fact that the person was out looking for hookers in a known "red-light district" has nothing to do with LE.
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NOB was the vendor selling the kilos of coke, etc....and was the Federal Agent.
Here is his one and only forum post.
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=17118.msg169915#msg169915
When the buyer (who was a vendor,etc) accepted the product from the agents (dressed as usps), he finalized and gave feedback on nobs page. Then when he got busted shortly after when they came back, somehow he gave neg feedback, etc...and it was promptly removed by admins. I'm guessing dpr, and nob somehow made dpr believe he was legit, and that his vendor was rogue.
Crazy stuff...
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@Juno
CORRECT! Finally someone that paid attention :)
And GOOGLEYED, or one of his partners, was the one that got caught in the sting.
When the buyer (who was a vendor,etc) accepted the product from the agents (dressed as usps)
This part no correct we think. It was not sent USPS, they want to do local delivery because did no want kg to be seized in transit (and also only way they could deliver real cocaine since in mail stream could be lost or stolen).
Also might take transactions with GOOGLEYED into question. This may not be over yet.
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@Juno
CORRECT! Finally someone that paid attention :)
And GOOGLEYED, or one of his partners, was the one that got caught in the sting.
When the buyer (who was a vendor,etc) accepted the product from the agents (dressed as usps)
This part no correct we think. It was not sent USPS, they want to do local delivery because did no want kg to be seized in transit (and also only way they could deliver real cocaine since in mail stream could be lost or stolen).
Also might take transactions with GOOGLEYED into question. This may not be over yet.
I at least think googleyed was made to believe it was coming usps. I know they didnt' actually send it, but they could have gave a tracking, some fake scans to look like a pack was really coming, and then a fake usps guy deliver it. it sounded like they busted him shortly after getting the pack...long enough to finalize and leave feedback, talk to dpr, etc. I remember nob had a message on his profile about "thats why he doesn't suggest using usps for packs"....blaming it on them, when he was the fed.
What a fucked up situation.
Theres a thread in the vendor forum from googleyed about his dealing with nob. I remember Nobs picture on his profile.....was probably taken in the back of a field office somehwere with a bunch of agents standing out of view. :-/
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It was NOB, not NOD....
People seem to keep confusing these two...
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Yes, nob.
who said nod?
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Yes, nob.
who said nod?
Got them mixed up in my last sentence.... edited.
Crazy...cause i know someone who conversed with nob...and he wanted to front a kilo of coke, and meet in person, etc. That would have been interesting.
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@mnak - NO
Read complaint careful.
They insist use bank wire instead of bitcoin (BREAK RULE #1), same way they take down many operation, always use money outside of BTC.
They suggest NOT to use USPS and deliver personally. (BREAK RULE #2). If they use USPS they cannot send REAL drug. If mail get lost or opened then real drug would get in hands of other people and cannot do this.
Where are you getting that information from? They do controlled deliveries all the time (when I say all of the time, I mean since way before SR existed).
That may not have been what happened in one particular case, but they still do it.
You're right that they would never send a package directly through USPS; they're colossal fuck ups and that would risk having the package lost or delivered to the wrong address. They don't actually have to send it through USPS to do a CD. When they do CDs, they send a LEO out in a mail truck to deliver your mail (and your neighbors too). Then they lie in wait for you to get the mail from the box. It doesn't need to be processed through the mail system.
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@mnak - NO
Read complaint careful.
They insist use bank wire instead of bitcoin (BREAK RULE #1), same way they take down many operation, always use money outside of BTC.
They suggest NOT to use USPS and deliver personally. (BREAK RULE #2). If they use USPS they cannot send REAL drug. If mail get lost or opened then real drug would get in hands of other people and cannot do this.
Where are you getting that information from? They do controlled deliveries all the time (when I say all of the time, I mean since way before SR existed).
That may not have been what happened in one particular case, but they still do it.
You're right that they would never send a package directly through USPS; they're colossal fuck ups and that would risk having the package lost or delivered to the wrong address. They don't actually have to send it through USPS to do a CD. When they do CDs, they send a LEO out in a mail truck to deliver your mail (and your neighbors too). Then they lie in wait for you to get the mail from the box. It doesn't need to be processed through the mail system.
Yes, CD they do all the time. They could fake send through USPS and do a controlled delivery. But they CANNOT actually straight deliver through USPS. OP asked if they could setup as a vendor and mail out a bunch of drugs. No.
Point was they cannot allow drugs to be distributed, use that information to help strategy.
In this case they insisted that not send USPS because package can be lost (colossal fuck ups), and they agreed that would be better to do in-person meet or drop of some sort. That be big red flag. Then they wan send money via bank wire instead of BTC. Big red flag #2.
Safety rules are there for a reason! :(
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Small respectful point:I might be reading wrong, but I think they can't allow *their own* drugs to be distributed.
In the Nod complaint, they in fact did order from the Nod account, knowing that drugs would be shipped via USPS, with efforts to intercept the packages in place. At least that's how it worked in the attempts that are described in the complaint (no way of knowing if there were other, lost packages.) No journalists have asked them about this, but that's not surprising, given the lack of media coverage on this case.
http://cryptome.org/2013/10/sadler-white-complaint.pdf
It's a subtle difference - I just wouldn't want people thinking that there's no way LE could allow drugs to be transmitted via USPS. Because they can, apparently. They just don't like to ship them that way on their own end.
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@Juno
CORRECT! Finally someone that paid attention :)
And GOOGLEYED, or one of his partners, was the one that got caught in the sting.
When the buyer (who was a vendor,etc) accepted the product from the agents (dressed as usps)
This part no correct we think. It was not sent USPS, they want to do local delivery because did no want kg to be seized in transit (and also only way they could deliver real cocaine since in mail stream could be lost or stolen).
Also might take transactions with GOOGLEYED into question. This may not be over yet.
So Googleyed was the vendor that was threatening to expose all the Buyers?
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Well... Googleyed (or, at least, googleyed1) being in Britain might have made this involvement a little difficult.
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It doesn't matter if he was based in the UK, he had a re-shipper and was selling cocaine domestically in the US. Read the indictment and match up the dates, its crystal clear what happened.
For those who are still trying to figure out how it went down,
The mod / admin flush was going to accept the drugs in the mail from nob and reship the goods for googs. I know googleyed1 used re-shippers in the US, infact, he messaged me at one point asking if i would be interested in working with/for him.
from the maryland indictment page 6
"on or about jan 26th Ross Ulbricht communicated with the UC via the internet, and told the UC that the employee had been arrested by law enforcement and that the employee had stolen funds from other Silk Road users."
Flush was last "seen" jan 26th.
Remember when a bunch of vendors were locked out of their accounts? Also jan 26th.
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=111972.0
It was Flush who stole btc and changed some vendors passwords so they couldn't log on to SR. According to the indictment, DPR then pays nob the 2 payments of 40k for the hit on flush. I really wonder how nob convinced DPR he was legitimate when everyone else was able to see he was LE or a con artist
Check out this thread where googleyed1 says that he has cocaine "coming soon" for US domestic. From dates in the indictment and the date of the threads you can clearly tell it was him.
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=106529.0
Googleyed1 later warned other vendors in the round table not to do deals with nob without sharing any details but warning us, "I wouldn't wish what happed on my worst enemy".
tl:dr googleyed1 ordered cocaine from nob (the feds) and the first "hit" for 80k was 100% on flush.
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lol ok, ok let me clear some things up..
the person who got busted.. this was chronic pain, he was an admin of the site and a friend to DPR. Vendors might remember when their accounts got cleared out briefly? that was CP too.. my belief is that he turned informer after this bust.
The vendor 'nob' was indeed undercover agent, and i knew this, but for some reason DPR tells me to make a purchase from him. So CP offered to be my reshipper and the sting ensued.
DPR tried to have him killed because of his stupidity in trusting this guy nob and i suspect CP knew some personal details of him.
I left bad feedback on nobs page and DPR cleared it.. nob also said he would kill me (hahahah!!)
and i left a message on vendor forums warning people.
thats all.
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Small respectful point:I might be reading wrong, but I think they can't allow *their own* drugs to be distributed.
to be clear; THEY cannot send the real drugs. They can buy the drugs to bust someone and that person can send in mail. but the LE cannot take real drug and put in mailbox.
The vendor 'nob' was indeed undercover agent, and i knew this, but for some reason DPR tells me to make a purchase from him. So CP offered to be my reshipper and the sting ensued.
Yes. How was DPR only person not know nob was dirty? Why was DPR personal involved in a drug deal. WTF?
confirm also that USPS was no used, we keep saying this. he want to arrange for personal delivery or drop, yes? Did you BBM him? ;)
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@mnak - NO
Read complaint careful.
They insist use bank wire instead of bitcoin (BREAK RULE #1), same way they take down many operation, always use money outside of BTC.
They suggest NOT to use USPS and deliver personally. (BREAK RULE #2). If they use USPS they cannot send REAL drug. If mail get lost or opened then real drug would get in hands of other people and cannot do this.
Where are you getting that information from? They do controlled deliveries all the time (when I say all of the time, I mean since way before SR existed).
That may not have been what happened in one particular case, but they still do it.
You're right that they would never send a package directly through USPS; they're colossal fuck ups and that would risk having the package lost or delivered to the wrong address. They don't actually have to send it through USPS to do a CD. When they do CDs, they send a LEO out in a mail truck to deliver your mail (and your neighbors too). Then they lie in wait for you to get the mail from the box. It doesn't need to be processed through the mail system.
Yes, CD they do all the time. They could fake send through USPS and do a controlled delivery. But they CANNOT actually straight deliver through USPS. OP asked if they could setup as a vendor and mail out a bunch of drugs. No.
Point was they cannot allow drugs to be distributed, use that information to help strategy.
Ahhh, I understand your point now. Agreed.
In this case they insisted that not send USPS because package can be lost (colossal fuck ups), and they agreed that would be better to do in-person meet or drop of some sort. That be big red flag. Then they wan send money via bank wire instead of BTC. Big red flag #2.
WOW! That's unbelievable. It's hard to believe that a seasoned SR buyer (or anyone with common sense) would agree to those terms. That's fucking crazy. I can't believe they fell for that trap (well, I believe it, but you know what I mean).
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lol ok, ok let me clear some things up..
the person who got busted.. this was chronic pain, he was an admin of the site and a friend to DPR. Vendors might remember when their accounts got cleared out briefly? that was CP too.. my belief is that he turned informer after this bust.
The vendor 'nob' was indeed undercover agent, and i knew this, but for some reason DPR tells me to make a purchase from him. So CP offered to be my reshipper and the sting ensued.
DPR tried to have him killed because of his stupidity in trusting this guy nob and i suspect CP knew some personal details of him.
I left bad feedback on nobs page and DPR cleared it.. nob also said he would kill me (hahahah!!)
and i left a message on vendor forums warning people.
thats all.
So it's true then....
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lol ok, ok let me clear some things up..
the person who got busted.. this was chronic pain, he was an admin of the site and a friend to DPR. Vendors might remember when their accounts got cleared out briefly? that was CP too.. my belief is that he turned informer after this bust.
The vendor 'nob' was indeed undercover agent, and i knew this, but for some reason DPR tells me to make a purchase from him. So CP offered to be my reshipper and the sting ensued.
DPR tried to have him killed because of his stupidity in trusting this guy nob and i suspect CP knew some personal details of him.
I left bad feedback on nobs page and DPR cleared it.. nob also said he would kill me (hahahah!!)
and i left a message on vendor forums warning people.
thats all.
Was CP going to keep some of the coke before reshipping it to you? If so then maybe DPR was going to have CP ship him some coke for personal use. I can't think of any other motive for DPR to have bothered with this shit.
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lol ok, ok let me clear some things up..
the person who got busted.. this was chronic pain, he was an admin of the site and a friend to DPR. Vendors might remember when their accounts got cleared out briefly? that was CP too.. my belief is that he turned informer after this bust.
The vendor 'nob' was indeed undercover agent, and i knew this, but for some reason DPR tells me to make a purchase from him. So CP offered to be my reshipper and the sting ensued.
DPR tried to have him killed because of his stupidity in trusting this guy nob and i suspect CP knew some personal details of him.
I left bad feedback on nobs page and DPR cleared it.. nob also said he would kill me (hahahah!!)
and i left a message on vendor forums warning people.
thats all.
I remember seeing the bad feedback and nob's rating drop way down...then a few days the negative feedback was gone!
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Was CP going to keep some of the coke before reshipping it to you? If so then maybe DPR was going to have CP ship him some coke for personal use. I can't think of any other motive for DPR to have bothered with this shit.
That doesn't sound like much of a motive either. With millions of Bitcoin dollars and the pick of most of the Web's best coke vendors to choose from, why take this route for a bit of personal?
Umm... Something else still niggles me, though, and I'm not entirely sure what. I already suspect that one person's account has been commandeered by someone else and, while I really don't wish to increase the already absurd levels of recent paranoia here, it does appear that we cannot trust anyone here now to be who they were before the sudden change (including me, I suppose, but then I wasn't here for long before it either). Perhaps we need JohnTheBaptist in this thread to do some of his style analysis. And actually considering that his presence might ever be helpful is not something I would have dreamed of a week ago :)
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WOW! That's unbelievable. It's hard to believe that a seasoned SR buyer (or anyone with common sense) would agree to those terms. That's fucking crazy. I can't believe they fell for that trap (well, I believe it, but you know what I mean).
The same way they take down every site. Farmers market most recent. Direct payment method, and in person meetings or drops. No idea why persons don fuck learn to stop that!? :o It was the #1 rule on SR ONLY BTC and DPR is involved in doing wire transfers. Shit crazy.
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Cp was going to reship it for us to all you lovely people at SR for a cut. DPR had nothing to gain from this deal, he simply had been sweet talked by nob into convincing him nob was a big player. I'm sure DPR saw $$$ in commission at the thought of nob getting off the ground.
As we saw, DPR was just a lonely guy who no one really knew, these sorta guys are susceptible to looking for and finding friends on an online environment. It's always a recipe for disaster for someone like that to run something like this.
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Yes and they profiled him and used it against him. Bastards. Worst part is nob was so obviously dirty.
Question then is why did you not make greater effort to expose the bust?
Can you confirm publicly that it was a drop and not USPS?
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It was USPS not a drop,
After DPR started deleting my threads I felt it best to keep quiet.. I did not understand exactly what happened at the time and i didnt want to harm my business by being banned.
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Of all the people that DPR could have arranged to receive a shipment from an unproven supplier, DPR selects one of the very few people that has information on DPR and has inside info on SR?
That's some exceptionally good luck on the part of the feds.
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something don't smell right here...
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it MIGHT be considered entrapment depending on what exactly went down. o be defined as entrapment, defense has to show that LE enticed you to commit a crime that you would not have had a likelihood to commit had they not presented the situation.
Like that show batecar where they make people steal cars, most of them are not convicted in court unless they have a history of auto theft.
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Of all the people that DPR could have arranged to receive a shipment from an unproven supplier, DPR selects one of the very few people that has information on DPR and has inside info on SR?
That's some exceptionally good luck on the part of the feds.
DPR didnt arrange anything.. im tired of repeating myself on this thread. DPR only backed the guy. It was me and CP who were talking to arrange it.
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it MIGHT be considered entrapment depending on what exactly went down. o be defined as entrapment, defense has to show that LE enticed you to commit a crime that you would not have had a likelihood to commit had they not presented the situation.
From my reading, the ID deal seems very much like entrapment. There doesn't seem to be any direct indication, however, that the person who persuaded him into it was LE.
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@Juno
CORRECT! Finally someone that paid attention :)
And GOOGLEYED, or one of his partners, was the one that got caught in the sting.
When the buyer (who was a vendor,etc) accepted the product from the agents (dressed as usps)
This part no correct we think. It was not sent USPS, they want to do local delivery because did no want kg to be seized in transit (and also only way they could deliver real cocaine since in mail stream could be lost or stolen).
Also might take transactions with GOOGLEYED into question. This may not be over yet.
I at least think googleyed was made to believe it was coming usps. I know they didnt' actually send it, but they could have gave a tracking, some fake scans to look like a pack was really coming, and then a fake usps guy deliver it. it sounded like they busted him shortly after getting the pack...long enough to finalize and leave feedback, talk to dpr, etc. I remember nob had a message on his profile about "thats why he doesn't suggest using usps for packs"....blaming it on them, when he was the fed.
What a fucked up situation.
Theres a thread in the vendor forum from googleyed about his dealing with nob. I remember Nobs picture on his profile.....was probably taken in the back of a field office somehwere with a bunch of agents standing out of view. :-/
I think the fact that NOB (a federal agent) claimed that using usps is a bad idea means that they are completely powerless to stop drugs in the mail and that the only way to make real busts are person to person deals
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it MIGHT be considered entrapment depending on what exactly went down. o be defined as entrapment, defense has to show that LE enticed you to commit a crime that you would not have had a likelihood to commit had they not presented the situation.
From my reading, the ID deal seems very much like entrapment. There doesn't seem to be any direct indication, however, that the person who persuaded him into it was LE.
Unless I missed something, the ID deal wasn't even close to entrapment (on the surface). DPR needed the IDs to rent servers (although no one knows why to put his real picture on them). I don't think anyone persuaded DPR to buy the IDs. I think he needed them and bought them from his market. Maybe the vendor sweet talked him, but it was his original intent to break the law.
He's not charged in the ID deal to my knowledge. That information is just part of their effort to tie Ulbricht to DPR. Let's put it this way. The IDs were "allegedly" intercepted by customs at the border in a "random search." They don't allege that the vendor in the ID case that led to the DHS visit was LE (it would make a lot more sense if it was LE).
Anyway, entrapment is an affirmative defense. It shifts the burden of proof to the defendent (who basically has to acknowledge they're guilty -- so if you can't prove it--the defense has to show it beyond a reasonable doubt--you're fucked. Lawyers only opt for affirmative defenses when they have a very strong case.
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@Juno
CORRECT! Finally someone that paid attention :)
And GOOGLEYED, or one of his partners, was the one that got caught in the sting.
When the buyer (who was a vendor,etc) accepted the product from the agents (dressed as usps)
This part no correct we think. It was not sent USPS, they want to do local delivery because did no want kg to be seized in transit (and also only way they could deliver real cocaine since in mail stream could be lost or stolen).
Also might take transactions with GOOGLEYED into question. This may not be over yet.
I at least think googleyed was made to believe it was coming usps. I know they didnt' actually send it, but they could have gave a tracking, some fake scans to look like a pack was really coming, and then a fake usps guy deliver it. it sounded like they busted him shortly after getting the pack...long enough to finalize and leave feedback, talk to dpr, etc. I remember nob had a message on his profile about "thats why he doesn't suggest using usps for packs"....blaming it on them, when he was the fed.
What a fucked up situation.
Theres a thread in the vendor forum from googleyed about his dealing with nob. I remember Nobs picture on his profile.....was probably taken in the back of a field office somehwere with a bunch of agents standing out of view. :-/
I think the fact that NOB (a federal agent) claimed that using usps is a bad idea means that they are completely powerless to stop drugs in the mail and that the only way to make real busts are person to person deals
don't be an idiot.. of course they can stop drugs in the mail. he used usps himself, that is un-debateable.
your stupidity annoys me.
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From my reading, the ID deal seems very much like entrapment. There doesn't seem to be any direct indication, however, that the person who persuaded him into it was LE.
Unless I missed something, the ID deal wasn't even close to entrapment (on the surface). DPR needed the IDs to rent servers (although no one knows why to put his real picture on them). I don't think anyone persuaded DPR to buy the IDs. I think he needed them and bought them from his market. Maybe the vendor sweet talked him, but it was his original intent to break the law.
But was it his original intent to break that particular law?
Oh, as I wrote, I see no direct indication and therefore no proof. It's just that, according to the complaint, the mysterious 'redandwhite' ("the people [the apparently fictitious] friendlychemist owes money to" who later claimed to have killed FC) was asked over a "chat service" by whoever was DPR in June, "hey, just wanted to find out where you are with the dummy ID idea," receiving the reply, "I have ran it by my worker and he is working on it." It was over a month later that a DPR (I don't know whether the same one) told someone 'that he "needed a fake ID" that he intended to use to "rent servers."' The order of these two conversations being swapped in the complaint feels less than accidental to me and the scenarios I conceive that could have led to the two snippets mostly suggest to my mind that the need for IDs was initially proposed by this 'redandwhite'. It's just a feeling, though, from my attempts to read between the lines. Indeed, as 'redandwhite' is so strongly linked to 'FriendlyChemist' it may well be that they, and therefore the June "chat service" conversation, are equally fictional. Which would make my entire supposition somewhat moot :)
I'm still wondering, though... Why so many IDs all with different names on Mr Ulbricht's face, especially when the servers were in so many different countries (including the U.S., Romania, Iceland and Latvia).