Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: TheBusiness on July 14, 2012, 02:35 pm
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Interested in hearing any advice about recreational drug use and protecting the brains natural equilibrium so as to avoid depression, or long term damage. In particular, with MDMA and whether there is a "best practice" for safe, but regular use.
- Have a few weeks break between rolling
- Get plenty of sunlight
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Beats me.
If I was worried about my brains functions I probably would have just stuck to pot.
I guess the best advice would be to use infrequently.
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https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_health.shtml
edit: okay that was a bit slack...
For maintaining optimum brain function, you would never do anything at all, but fuck that we have only one life.
To make sure you're not frying yourself, I would firstly, stick with a very long break time period (maybe a month, or two if you're really worried). In one month, your body should be calibrated to function as best as it can.
Don't think about it too much. The more you think about it, the more psychologically obsessed you are with it. In a nutshell, what do you think addiction is :P
Learn from yourself - if you are able to understand your body and all the signs it is giving you (and respond to them), then theoretically you can take em every day. But that's not possible :P so you'll have to do with longer waiting times :(
Also, If you can, read EASYWAY (guide to quit smoking). The author (Allen Carr) has a very interesting perspective on drug addiction / correct mindset to be in etc.
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If I was worried about my brains functions I probably would have just stuck to pot.
Yeh, I smoked pot every day for about a decade.. I have to say though I think I've lost the magic with weed (is that even possible??) . it's just not enjoyable anymore. I think there is some evidence that long term pot use does have an impact on brain function too though?
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https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_health.shtml
Thanks.. I really should've checked there before posting here, still interesting to hear from the SR community how they manage their own long term brain health.
This was interesting though from the MDMA neurotoxocoty section ...
"In 2011, a paper examining an unusual group of MDMA-only users (most people who try and use Ecstasy/MDMA have also use other recreational drugs) found that the MDMA-only users "showed no signs of cognitive impairment attributable to drug use: ecstasy use did not decrease mental ability." See AdditionJournal.org Feb 15 2011. "
fucking WOW... really???
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Stick with wikipedia's definition of an outlier if you would like to be safe :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier
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mate dont you read the newspapers sticking to pot means youll end up with schizophrenia, talk about bad brain function! ;)
id pretend like im interested in this but the depression boat kinda sailed in way before i started pot. thats the number one brain function killer imo... if you dont have it then stay happy, my memory and cognition has gone down the toilet
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the depression boat kinda sailed in way before i started pot. thats the number one brain function killer imo... if you dont have it then stay happy, my memory and cognition has gone down the toilet
This, pretty much. When you realize that you ruined your own social life, your relationship with your parents suck and your relationship with your SO sucks and it just keeps going for years... you become a psychopath that dont give no shit <3 ungodly <3
I would rather be ignorant and in bliss, than intelligent and in chaos.
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the depression boat kinda sailed in way before i started pot. thats the number one brain function killer imo... if you dont have it then stay happy, my memory and cognition has gone down the toilet
This, pretty much. When you realize that you ruined your own social life, your relationship with your parents suck and your relationship with your SO sucks and it just keeps going for years... you become a psychopath that dont give no shit <3 ungodly <3
I would rather be ignorant and in bliss, than intelligent and in chaos.
Absolutely beautiful your last sentence .....
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I would rather be ignorant and in bliss, than intelligent and in chaos.
Absolutely beautiful your last sentence .....
Nah I don't take drugs to escape. Just like I don't take organized religion to make me feel good.
Truth is a virtue, and I wouldn't trade it for drug induced ignorance for a moment.
Hence the original question about strategies to minimize impact on the brain over long term usage. Not all weekend drinkers end up with brain damage at the end of their lives, and alcohol literally destroys brain cells.
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I would rather be ignorant and in bliss, than intelligent and in chaos.
Absolutely beautiful your last sentence .....
Nah I don't take drugs to escape. Just like I don't take organized religion to make me feel good.
Truth is a virtue, and I wouldn't trade it for drug induced ignorance for a moment.
Hence the original question about strategies to minimize impact on the brain over long term usage. Not all weekend drinkers end up with brain damage at the end of their lives, and alcohol literally destroys brain cells.
Sorry, I meant it in the sense of self-fulfillment. Well, if you spent most of your life being a genius amongst your peers and you're depressed all the way through it... you can see why some would prefer happiness to knowledge. There is also an issue with how "truth" is a broad and subjective term. I love how Descartes' went from trying to list all the things that we did not know to finding the one thing that is a universal truth.
I would also like to remind you that alcohol's effect on braincells is minimal compared to MDMA (based on your average doses for a 25 year old, lets say). Brain Cells do regrow, but it's a long ass fucking process and if you get really really used to being fried, you're fried for life.
But uh, yeah... If you are able to "restore" your body, you will end up with minimal losses. The reason MDMA is so popular (and so dangerous) is because of how it literally just forces your body into Serotonin overdrive.
This was the main reason I never did MDMA more than once... because you don't wanna be depressed more than once lmfao.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/320392-foods-that-build-seratonin-levels/ << That should help you when you've got a horrendous hangover by helping speed up recovery though. :)
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That made feel heaps better!
Goodbye brain, its been good
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I've done about .5 gram of MDMA in the last 3 weekends. Might be time for a break :)
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Make sure you're not deficient in vitamin C (If you don't take several grams a day, or live in a remote tropical forest eating wild fruit year round, you're deficient.)
Take lots of niacin (b3), good forms are nicotinoyl gaba and nicotinoyl inositol, this will allow your cells to produce enough energy to restore themselves after stimulation.
Take B6, to support increased metabolic demands, but if you're taking the cheap synthetic Pyridoxine HCl make sure to NOT take more than 50mg per day.
Take Lipoic Acid, only the very expensive 'bio-stabilized' Na- or K- R-ALA form is worth taking, but it's a very important structural antioxidant.
Take Magnesium; cellular excitation results in an influx of calcium ion, which in the absence of magnesium ion may remain bound in the cell, which is the phenomenon commonly known as 'calcification'. Excessive calcium invariably leads to cell death. Stimulants increase intracellular calcium, which is why they are potentially neurotoxic and cardiotoxic (however, as I have posted elsewhere, I don't believe MDMA is necessarily toxic to humans in recreational doses). Good forms are chelated magnesium (magnesium glycinate), magnesium ascorbate, and magnesium citrate. Don't take magnesium oxide, it is a pro-oxidant.
Take Piracetam.
DON'T take 5-HTP; it is the amino acid precursor to serotonin, which is a neurotoxic, anti-metabolic, stress-associated chemical that has the opposite properties than those ascribed to it by the manufacturers of SSRI. If you do feel that you need to take it, take it the day after, not before.
DON'T take fish oil or flax oil; they contain polyunsaturated fatty acids which become rancid (peroxidated) in our bodies, steal O2 from oxidative metabolism to form lipid peroxides and prostaglandins and lipofuscin, suppress our thyroid, and are generally at the center of most chronic diseases.
DON'T take iron, or eat foods that are 'fortified' with iron; iron is the catalyst that is responsible for initiating much if not most oxidative damage in our cells, and adults today generally have excessive levels of iron already.
DON'T take aspartate or glutamate, or drink diet coke. They are excitants that can be neurotoxic on their own, and may potentiate stimulant-induced excitotoxicity.
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Hi Tryptamine,
I just went through your list and while I can somewhat agree with some of them, I`m having a hard time understanding the rest. If you don`t mind could you explain the stated quotes that I list more thoroughly? I am doing research myself and would like to know the answers you have. I`m also going to be vending supplements and such like you on SR soon, but of a much different kind. I hope we can even work together later at some point.
Take Magnesium; cellular excitation results in an influx of calcium ion, which in the absence of magnesium ion may remain bound in the cell, which is the phenomenon commonly known as 'calcification'. Excessive calcium invariably leads to cell death. Stimulants increase intracellular calcium, which is why they are potentially neurotoxic and cardiotoxic.
DON'T take 5-HTP; it is the amino acid precursor to serotonin, which is a neurotoxic, anti-metabolic, stress-associated chemical that has the opposite properties than those ascribed to it by the manufacturers of SSRI. If you do feel that you need to take it, take it the day after, not before.
DON'T take fish oil or flax oil; they contain polyunsaturated fatty acids which become rancid (peroxidated) in our bodies, steal O2 from oxidative metabolism to form lipid peroxides and prostaglandins and lipofuscin, suppress our thyroid, and are generally at the center of most chronic diseases.
DON'T take aspartate or glutamate, or drink diet coke. They are excitants that can be neurotoxic on their own, and may potentiate stimulant-induced excitotoxicity.
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This is exactly the kind of info I needed, thanks Tryptamine. I'll stock up on all those and integrate into my daily routine.
I will cut back from weekends to every fortnight (any suggestions on another drug that's ok for the off week? 2C-B maybe?)
Anyone have any thoughts on doing MDMA two nights in a row? Apparently not advised, but I like to do friday and saturday.
Finally, I just read something cool on erowid that suggests the "sextasy" viagra-mdma combo is actually protective (awesome if true...):
Sildenafil, given shortly before 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), affords protection against 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) depletions caused by this amphetamine derivative by an acute preconditioning-like mechanism. Because acute and delayed preconditionings do not share the same mechanisms, we investigated whether sildenafil would also protect the 5-HT system of the rat if given 24 hr before MDMA. For this, MDMA (3 x 5 mg/kg i.p., every 2 hr) was administered to rats previously treated with sildenafil (8 mg/kg p.o.). One week later, 5-HT content and 5-HT transporter density were measured in the striatum, frontal cortex, and hippocampus of the rats. Our findings indicate that sildenafil afforded significant protection against MDMA-induced 5-HT deficits without altering the acute hyperthermic response to MDMA or its metabolic disposition. Sildenafil promoted ERK1/2 activation an effect that was paralleled by an increase in MnSOD expression that persisted 24 hr later. In addition, superoxide and superoxide-derived oxidants, shown by ethidium fluorescence, increased after the last MDMA injection, an effect that was prevented by sildenafil pretreatment. Similarly, MDMA increased nitrotyrosine concentration in the hippocampus, an effect not shown by sildenafil-pretreated rats. In conclusion, our data demonstrate that sildenafil produces a significant, long-lasting neuroprotective effect against MDMA-induced 5-HT deficits. This effect is apparently mediated by an increased expression of MnSOD and a subsequent reduced susceptibility to the oxidative stress caused by MDMA.
https://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=8474&S=mdma%20or%20methylenedioxymethamphetamine&SField=all
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Make sure you're not deficient in vitamin C (If you don't take several grams a day, or live in a remote tropical forest eating wild fruit year round, you're deficient.)
Take lots of niacin (b3), good forms are nicotinoyl gaba and nicotinoyl inositol, this will allow your cells to produce enough energy to restore themselves after stimulation.
Take B6, to support increased metabolic demands, but if you're taking the cheap synthetic Pyridoxine HCl make sure to NOT take more than 50mg per day.
Take Lipoic Acid, only the very expensive 'bio-stabilized' Na- or K- R-ALA form is worth taking, but it's a very important structural antioxidant.
Take Magnesium; cellular excitation results in an influx of calcium ion, which in the absence of magnesium ion may remain bound in the cell, which is the phenomenon commonly known as 'calcification'. Excessive calcium invariably leads to cell death. Stimulants increase intracellular calcium, which is why they are potentially neurotoxic and cardiotoxic (however, as I have posted elsewhere, I don't believe MDMA is necessarily toxic to humans in recreational doses). Good forms are chelated magnesium (magnesium glycinate), magnesium ascorbate, and magnesium citrate. Don't take magnesium oxide, it is a pro-oxidant.
Take Piracetam.
DON'T take 5-HTP; it is the amino acid precursor to serotonin, which is a neurotoxic, anti-metabolic, stress-associated chemical that has the opposite properties than those ascribed to it by the manufacturers of SSRI. If you do feel that you need to take it, take it the day after, not before.
DON'T take fish oil or flax oil; they contain polyunsaturated fatty acids which become rancid (peroxidated) in our bodies, steal O2 from oxidative metabolism to form lipid peroxides and prostaglandins and lipofuscin, suppress our thyroid, and are generally at the center of most chronic diseases.
DON'T take iron, or eat foods that are 'fortified' with iron; iron is the catalyst that is responsible for initiating much if not most oxidative damage in our cells, and adults today generally have excessive levels of iron already.
DON'T take aspartate or glutamate, or drink diet coke. They are excitants that can be neurotoxic on their own, and may potentiate stimulant-induced excitotoxicity.
I was going to chime in but it seems like you have it covered.
I like to add as much omega-3 (naturally) as possible. So I eat Omega-3 Eggs (4-Grain brand, however all cage-free eggs are MUCH MUCH higher in Omega-3 than normal eggs), butter my toast with Kerry Gold Butter (the spreadable one is a bitch to find though!), and try to add whole flax whenever I can. I like to eat salmon but I try to stay away from fish due to how eating fish is pretty harmful for the environment.
I also take 2g of Choline daily and 250mg of Citicoline. I then take Cognitive Enhancers as needed.
I prefer Magnesium gel-caps as they seem to work pretty well but I have always liked Glycinate as well. If I don't take magnesium I will grind a lot more in my sleep (I have TMJ).
Piracetam is good but honestly I have had mixed experiences with it. Then again I thought that taking 3g was the minimum dose and used to over load on it.
Also Grapefruit juice just isn't talked about enough. It is incredibly high in Vitamin C without being as awfully sugary sweet as orange juice. Grapefruit juice tends to settle my stomach whereas orange juice makes me feel like I had way too much sugar. If its good enough for hunter-s thompson its good enough for me.
Also if you are going to be taking MDMA I greatly suggest MAO-Bs. I have personally tested out their effectiveness by giving my good friends a strip of Rasgelline before Ultra and he had less of a hangover (from the 3 day festival) than he usually does after rolling for one nigh. Still was a nasty hangover but nothing as soul draining as a typical MDMA hangover as it keeps your serotonin from being overly depleted.
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Hi Tryptamine,
I just went through you list and while I can somewhat agree with some of them, I`m having a hard time understanding the rest. If you don`t mind could you explain the stated quotes that I list more thoroughly? I am doing research myself and would like to know the answers you have. I`m also going to be vending supplements and such like you on SR soon, but of a much different kind. I hope we can even work together later at some point.
Take Magnesium; cellular excitation results in an influx of calcium ion, which in the absence of magnesium ion may remain bound in the cell, which is the phenomenon commonly known as 'calcification'. Excessive calcium invariably leads to cell death. Stimulants increase intracellular calcium, which is why they are potentially neurotoxic and cardiotoxic.
DON'T take 5-HTP; it is the amino acid precursor to serotonin, which is a neurotoxic, anti-metabolic, stress-associated chemical that has the opposite properties than those ascribed to it by the manufacturers of SSRI. If you do feel that you need to take it, take it the day after, not before.
DON'T take fish oil or flax oil; they contain polyunsaturated fatty acids which become rancid (peroxidated) in our bodies, steal O2 from oxidative metabolism to form lipid peroxides and prostaglandins and lipofuscin, suppress our thyroid, and are generally at the center of most chronic diseases.
DON'T take aspartate or glutamate, or drink diet coke. They are excitants that can be neurotoxic on their own, and may potentiate stimulant-induced excitotoxicity.
Calcium, like sodium, normally exists at a much higher concentration outside of cells than inside them. Magnesium, like potassium, is much more common inside the cells. When a neuron or a muscle cell is depolarized, that preference momentarily reverses, and calcium and sodium enter the cell. As the neuron returns to its high-energy resting state, the preference returns, and calcium and sodium exit the cell. If magnesium is deficient, more calcium will remain in the cells. Cell death is invariably associated with an increase in intracellular calcium [1].
[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1959348
Serotonin inhibits respiration and promotes glycolysis, by increasing intracellular calcium. [2] [3] Blood tryptophan levels are higher in depressed individuals [4], and excessive 5-HT activity may cause migraine and/or sexual dysfunction [5]. Increased serotonin levels are thought to be a major contributor to exercise-induced central fatigue [6]. Et cetera. If you're interested you can find out for yourself.
[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7875554
[3] http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3884544?uid=3739808&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21100918033521
[4] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4003186
[5] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/135926
[6] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17004850
Ray Peat has written at length about unsaturated fats, this article is relevant:
http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/oils-in-context.shtml
As for the last one, aspartate and glutamate are classic neurotoxins and indiscriminate excitatory agents, yet for some reason people still buy and eat them as supplements.
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Calcium, like sodium, normally exists at a much higher concentration outside of cells than inside them. Magnesium, like potassium, is much more common inside the cells. When a neuron or a muscle cell is depolarized, that preference momentarily reverses, and calcium and sodium enter the cell. As the neuron returns to its high-energy resting state, the preference returns, and calcium and sodium exit the cell. If magnesium is deficient, more calcium will remain in the cells. Cell death is invariably associated with an increase in intracellular calcium [1].
Man you know your shit. How do I give you karma? (Yes, I'm that new here).
I want to use as regularly and as safely as possible. I don't drink (maybe a glass of red now and then) or smoke (anything), but I want to enjoy my weekends with as little impact to my greater life and family as possible. I have a highly mental job and am an academic and need to ensure the impact on these things are mitigated outside my own highly, personal and secret MDMA usage.
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Thank you for the explanations and proper citations. I will review them tonight when I have time, they all seem to be interesting reads.
Man you know your shit. How do I give you karma? (Yes, I'm that new here).
After your post count reaches a 100, you can start giving out karma. You can do so by looking under their avatar/profile, where there is a [thank] and [discourage] button, they`re pretty self explanatory. You may give karma to a user no more than once every 72 hours.
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Man you know your shit. How do I give you karma? (Yes, I'm that new here).
After your post count reaches a 100, you can start giving out karma. You can do so by looking under their avatar/profile, where there is a [thank] and [discourage] button, they`re pretty self explanatory. You may give karma to a user no more than once every 72 hours.
Ah ha.. thanks for the tip. I like you guys and this community. I'm sure I'll get there. :)
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Anyone have any thoughts on doing MDMA two nights in a row? Apparently not advised, but I like to do friday and saturday.
https://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=8474&S=mdma%20or%20methylenedioxymethamphetamine&SField=all
The second roll will be shit and may lead to neurotoxicity.
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Anyone have any thoughts on doing MDMA two nights in a row? Apparently not advised, but I like to do friday and saturday.
https://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=8474&S=mdma%20or%20methylenedioxymethamphetamine&SField=all
The second roll will be shit and may lead to neurotoxicity.
The 2nd roll will be a waste and lead to a bad comedown without a doubt, only the desperate use it within consecutive days.
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Anyone have any thoughts on doing MDMA two nights in a row? Apparently not advised, but I like to do friday and saturday.
https://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=8474&S=mdma%20or%20methylenedioxymethamphetamine&SField=all
The second roll will be shit and may lead to neurotoxicity.
The 2nd roll will be a waste and lead to a bad comedown without a doubt, only the desperate use it within consecutive days.
Had a friend who took a boat load of (tony76s) molly and he took it every day. The second day he took a boat load of acid so I'm not sure he could really make a fair assessment of the activity of the MDMA, but he said it did still kind of work. The third day was just nothing, absolutely nothing.
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Had a friend who took a boat load of (tony76s) molly and he took it every day. The second day he took a boat load of acid so I'm not sure he could really make a fair assessment of the activity of the MDMA, but he said it did still kind of work. The third day was just nothing, absolutely nothing.
Ughh. I can`t imagine what state his brain would be in. Just makes me shudder thinking that it only takes 3 days to render your receptors useless.
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Ughh. I can`t imagine what state his brain would be in. Just makes me shudder thinking that it only takes 3 days to render your receptors useless.
That's not healthy, but from what I understand his brain hasn't bad a chance to produce more serotonin, not necessarily receptor damage.
I've been doing some more research and looking through journals etc and I think the Vitamin C thing is really important. Preload with Vitamin C, then have a big dose with your MDMA, then a few more big doses during / after. This reduces the oxidization that occurs in the brain which is what damages the receptors. Dose with the ALA as well.
The real bonus is that if you do this right, you can not only protect your brain but get a better roll each time. Stimulate your brains natural serotonin levels and replenishment, protect them from damage, and potentiate your experience.
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Ughh. I can`t imagine what state his brain would be in. Just makes me shudder thinking that it only takes 3 days to render your receptors useless.
That's not healthy, but from what I understand his brain hasn't bad a chance to produce more serotonin, not necessarily receptor damage.
I've been doing some more research and looking through journals etc and I think the Vitamin C thing is really important. Preload with Vitamin C, then have a big dose with your MDMA, then a few more big doses during / after. This reduces the oxidization that occurs in the brain which is what damages the receptors. Dose with the ALA as well.
The real bonus is that if you do this right, you can not only protect your brain but get a better roll each time. Stimulate your brains natural serotonin levels and replenishment, protect them from damage, and potentiate your experience.
The difference this makes is unbelievable , had one MDMA session without loading with Vit C, had terrible headaches and generally just felt like shit. The next session, about 3 weeks later, had Vit C before hand , during and after, made the HUGEST difference in the come down, just a much smoother afterglow type come down, without any feelings of depression, highly recommend the Vitamin C thing......
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Had a friend who took a boat load of (tony76s) molly and he took it every day. The second day he took a boat load of acid so I'm not sure he could really make a fair assessment of the activity of the MDMA, but he said it did still kind of work. The third day was just nothing, absolutely nothing.
Ughh. I can`t imagine what state his brain would be in. Just makes me shudder thinking that it only takes 3 days to render your receptors useless.
He took Rasgelline the first two day but forgot the last. So it didn't work nearly as well without Rasgelline.
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The difference this makes is unbelievable , had one MDMA session without loading with Vit C, had terrible headaches and generally just felt like shit. The next session, about 3 weeks later, had Vit C before hand , during and after, made the HUGEST difference in the come down, just a much smoother afterglow type come down, without any feelings of depression, highly recommend the Vitamin C thing......
Totally! I was blown away at the effects.
Will be giving long term attention to ALA, Ractetams, B groups as well and see how it goes. I'm just grateful to learn about all this early on instead of after the fact. With any luck I'll be rolling into retirement ;)