Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: piy on August 01, 2012, 03:54 am
-
To keep it short, I was sharing psychedelic experiences with my mother, got on to the subject of DMT and told her I have some changa.
Being as straightforward as I am, I gave her the highs and lows of a trip, but stressed how profoundly enlightening an experience can be.
She now wants to try it.
The problem is, she's loaded up on all sorts of prescriptions and I wouldn't feel safe letting her smoke changa knowing that she takes an SSRI anti-depressant.
From my understanding, mixing SSRI's and MAOI's is a big no-no, and I let her know that.
She proceeded to ask me that if she stopped taking her SSRI for a few days, that it would be ok?
Being a person who simply regurgitates information found on the internet, I couldn't give her an answer other than I wouldn't feel safe letting her try it, just in case.
So, to people who are more knowledgeable on this subject: Is there a completely safe waiting period from taking an SSRI that she could safely enjoy an MAOI mix of DMT?
-
You do know this question is asked every day almost right? It's been answered in detail on sites like bluelight. No, don't stop taking your medication. That's not a good idea.
-
Can't stand bluelight, haven't been there for years. Forgive me for utilizing the Drug safety forum.
And to be honest, knowing how deadly SSRI complications are, I wouldn't necessarily call that a medication.
-
Dude you aren't implementing a thing if the same question gets asked three times a week. Use the search bar. Bluelight is your friend. You don't have to join. Just Google MDMA and SSRI's.
-
So I search for MAOI and SSRI on the search here, and I get an answer from someone that contradicts the information you provided:
"If you are currently on anti-depressants you would need to stop medicating."
This is exactly why I created this thread, and why I avoid bluelight.
I already made it clear I know the dangers of SSRI and MAOI. By asking a specific question relating to the waiting period, I was planning on avoiding replies on a general topic and focus on exactly the information I was looking for, hopefully filtering out mixed replies.
-
That's just it. Most replies here are mixed. I know that MAOI's are bad, and under no circumstances should you really stop taking SSRI's unless you enjoy depression. Bluelight is full of hardcore druggies who do this shit every week. if you don't like bluelight try drugs-forum or Erowid.
-
Erowid is my go-to site as they usually provide sources to back their information, but unfortunately doesn't provide anything pertaining to a waiting period from what I've searched. I have hundreds of posts on bluelight and have been registered for almost a decade, there's too much hearsay information revolving around (I get even worse vibes off drugs-forum), but this place seemed worth a shot to gather more information, compare, and form an educated opinion. My bad.
-
It depends on the MAOI, not all maoi's are equal, and plant based maois are generally less severe than pharms. I would hope you're taking a plant based one since that is the spirit of ayahuasca.
If you want to know when its safe you're going to want to look at the literature regarding your SSRI and when its safe to take MAOI's, as this is a common situation for these class of drugs and they do alot of testing so you dont have to. Of course they assume pharm MAOI's and the recommendations will be more conservative as a result. If all else fails consult your body, if it doesnt feel right then dont do it.
-
Great information, thanks for your reply. Yes it is a plant MAOI, it's the changa spice from a reputable vendor on here. I've smoked it many times and it's a fantastic blend, but I don't take anti-depressants or any prescription drugs. I will have to see what SSRI she takes and search from there.
-
Changa is cannabis rolled in DMT no? Dmt isnt an MAOI, its the chemical you need an maoi for so you can eat it without it getting metabolized. The maoi in ayahuasca is haramala/haramline from either syrian rue or the caapi vine. The latter one is what traditional ayahuasca is made from and is generally a more positive experience, with less nausea and headaches (it also tastes better too). Do some reading on what ayahuasca is before you do anything, there's alot of history and mystery to it.
-
Oh I'm well versed on the history of DMT and have plenty of experience smoking changa. Changa doesn't have any cannabis, it's a smokeable form of ayahuasca (DMT mixed with an MAOI plant). It's fascinating how South American natives thousands of years ago discovered how to make DMT active orally, to make ayahuasca brew. I understand DMT isn't a MAOI and how/why it works, but for changa specifically the added harmaline is not to make the DMT active (as it's active in smokeable form by itself), but to increase the effects and duration.
-
Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it. I found out she takes Citalopram, which is generic Celexa. I will now start searching for information on this drug and see how selective it truly is, but to be honest, I don't believe it's worth the risk.
-
I can help on this.
Do not stop the SSRI meds without seeing your doc. From experience, it will make you very ill. You would need to wean off them slowly over a long period of time..
MAOI's should NOT be taken with SSRI's , they will mess with the way the body breaks down amines. Thus possibly stopping the breakdown of the SSRI metabolites. You would most likely end up with 'Serotonin Syndrome' which can be fatal. So please don't mess with them + SSRI's.
There's quite a few prescription MAOI's, but things like Harmala and even Passion Flower count as MAOI's.
Admittedly I don't know anyone who's tried it, but it seems like a really bad idea.
But I didn't realise Changa contained MAOI's, thought it was cannabis or parsley soaked in nn-DMT. So i can't see any issue.
However, if your mum is on SSRI's there is obviously some sort of underlying mental health condition. If she's never done psychedelics I would perhaps consider starting out with something less intense than DMT, maybe a low dose of something else like shrooms or acid. Then at least she'll have an idea what to expect.
-
Thanks for your replies. She's been on them for about a decade now, so I figure the SSRI's have practically left a permanent mark on her brain's chemistry. I was able to find some information about people trying DMT and other drugs under the same anti-depressant, just nothing mixed with an MAOI. I've definitely come to the conclusion it's just not worth the risk. Regarding her mental health, I personally feel her craziness was induced by the old man back in the day, and going to doctors who are quick to prescribe anything as long as insurance covers it. It's fucking crazy when I see that Sunday-Saturday pill container loaded up like a rainbow.
But anyways, for an old semi-hippy, she surprisingly never tripped. Only smoked weed a few times, which until recently I got her toking to relieve headaches, but the high itself doesn't even faze her...I wonder if the anti-depressant has something to do with that. She's been real open minded since then, and this is coming from someone who threw away her sister's LSD (told me that disappointing story yesterday). I was thinking changa would be a good experience because if she didn't like it, she'd be back to baseline within 15 minutes. With my experience from it, I honestly feel it's not that much different than LSD or Psilocybin, it hasn't been dimensional altering for me and keeps me grounded to earth with very deep intense analytical thoughts. But, perhaps you're right. LSD would be out of the question though, hell that shit wears me out, and I'm concerned even a mushroom trip would be several hours too long for someone who's almost 60, but that would probably be the best candidate. I feel she can appreciate a good trip, so I'll have to talk to her about it.
-
Been thinking more on this.
I assume you're referring to Trojan's "Chango"
He says it contains Banisteriopsis caapi, this would be the MAOI I guess.
I wasn't aware that it was active by smoking, I'd imagine the alkaloids would be destroyed by heat and the quantity needed of the vine is large to create an MAOI effect. Ayahuasca has been one of my favourite trips, but I've never heard about it being smoked only orally ingested. My understanding is the main effect occurs during the first metabolism in the stomach and guts.
My thoughts on the Chango is that you're mainly gonna get a DMT experience. 1 bowl, couldn't possibly contain enough Caapi to produce an MAOI effect unless some sort of extract has been used.
I think the trouble is, even though your mum might have been on Citalopram for years it may be masking an underlying condition. What dose is she on? Perhaps its time for her to see her doc and talk about coming off them?
Or go for another psychedelic without an MAOI. I know many people with mental health conditions on both SSRI's and SNRI's who trip and have good experiences. But the dice isn't weighted in your favour.
Before getting into psychedelics its very important that your 'set' - the person you are and how your personality effects your way of thinking is in a good state. If its not, your chances of getting into a pickle on a trip are much higher.
-
I got it from DiMiTriSpice, here's the actual listing:
http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/index.php/silkroad/item/d331b13a81
Profile page has a bit more information regarding his changa, but only refers to the MAOI as harmala alkaloids.
It's really fantastic stuff, highly recommended if his shipping is back to normal speed.
I just looked at her dosage: 40mg per day
I've let my ma' know how I feel about her anti-depressants to ad naseum, and it's sad because she firmly believes it saved her life and can't live normally without it. There's been times she's ran out or tried to stop taking it, and within a couple days you can tell she's completely down and even sometimes randomly cries. It happened just last week actually, she said she was having a bad day and I said "yeah, no kidding" after hearing her cry for absolutely no reason. Yesterday, she admitted to me that she needed her prescription refilled during that time. She used to be a completely different person, now it's almost like she's on ecstasy when the drugs "work" and is something I've gotten used to over the years.
She wouldn't be the first person on anti-depressants that I've introduced to psychedelics. I dated a bipolar chick for awhile who was always zombied out on lithium and specifically told me she felt safe tripping with me, which gave me a nice ego boost. Absolutely all were positive LSD and shroom experiences with her, but I understand lithium is not an SSRI.
I've been through many bad trips myself, but have learned to enjoy it in a masochistic "bring it the fuck on" kind of way; though I do remember what it was like my first shroom trip where reality is shattered and felt like a clueless fetus...that definitely took me a couple days to get my head straight, and I imagine someone with a mental condition just might not know how to deal with it.
-
addition of pure harmaline
Yup, that would definitely be much more potent as an MAOI. I personally think it would be a very bad idea for her to try this. Risking serotonin syndrome just isn't worth it.
Just stick with pure DMT if you're determined to go down this route. I think its soluble in acetone so very easy to make your own blend if vaping isn't an option. Tobacco, weed or parsley are the most common materials.
40mgs Citalopram is a moderate dose so stopping without tapering down and weaning off is gonna make her feel dreadful.
Also think very carefully about her mental health and how a trip might affect her, sounds like there's a lot of issues hiding in there that a trip could bring up. There's usually a reason for tears even if people cant see it at the time. Take extreme care and think very carefully about this.
-
Thanks, I appreciate it. Yeah, there's just no way in hell it's worth the risk. I'm surprised to hear that's only a moderate dose. I mean, she's not completely off the wall like it may sound, but everything I said is true. No doubt it would be a gamble for her to trip, but having deep discussions with her on life and existence, it just naturally feels right to me to give her the opportunity. I know psychedelics helped me out many ways, but have to keep in mind everybody is different.
-
i've done harmala and smoked dmt before, it doesnt really potentiate it that much as most MAO's live in your gut and in various organs, but very little in the brain itself. The only reason to take haramala is to eat dmt or other tryptamines.
-
i've done harmala and smoked dmt before, it doesnt really potentiate it that much as most MAO's live in your gut and in various organs, but very little in the brain itself. The only reason to take haramala is to eat dmt or other tryptamines.
Definitely a valid point. That's the only times I've used Harmala myself.
Used Phegnam Harmala and B. Caapi with Psychotria Viridis. Uncertain what smoking MAOI's would do, if they would even get into the bloodstream. But the OP has a product with pure Harmine added.
Admittedly I've never smoked harmala in any form personally, a bit of research and googling is needed.
Still stick by my advice for the OP, its not worth the risk. Get some pure DMT and make your own smoking mix if you're determined.
-
from what I've read its a big NO NO to mix them.
from personal experience... quitting for a few days wont help.
depends on person, dosage, and time on meds.
I quit an SSRI for 2 weeks after only being on it for maybe a month( low dosage) in hopes of rolling for first time in yrs at a Tool show.
Didnt work, still got no effects from the MDMA
DMT freebase still works though:)
-
ssris cause far more harm than good. they mess with your brain's natural chemistry in pretty bad ways. numbing your emotions does not cause you to be happy, despite what we're taught. has your mom tried marijuana for her depression? it is safer and far more effective than prescription antidepressants. while i do agree that it's not a good idea for her to get off her meds to trip, by being on them she is only treating the symptoms, not getting down to the root cause of her issues... which, coincidentally, psychedelics would help her do.
-
That's how I've felt about anti-depressants for awhile now. A type of drug that was created less than 25 years ago, how the fuck does the government have the audacity to feed the masses this poison, as if they have enough clinical data for long term effects. Drives me nuts just thinking about it.
Anyways, I've smoked her up a couple times recently. Not for depression though, she does it to relieve headaches which are caused by her blood pressure medication.
She currently only takes one hit though, which works amazingly for her and I believe has changed her perspective on the substances I consume.
She doesn't get as high as I do though it seems, and I'm a very heavy smoker.
I got a nice batch that'll be done curing by next week, so I'm considering buying her a bowl to influence her to smoke by herself.
I don't think she'll ever stop taking her SSRI, but she's been taking the step in the right direction as she no longer takes acetaminophen pills to stop headaches because the herb works so well.
-
Guess you're in the US. You guys have to pay for your prescription drugs unless you're insured? (sounds like drug dealing to me!)
Must be a nightmare, If you have a serious health condition like depression or something, you get them free, otherwise its £7.50 a script for as many pills as your doc wants to give you.
On a side topic does anyone know of any prescription MAOI's that would work to use with ayahuasca?
-
Yep, in the US it's: health insurance, cash, or get fucked. Health care is one of the biggest issues over here, if not the most.
Her insurance pays close to $1k/month for all her prescriptions. I wouldn't believe it unless I didn't see all the shit she takes.
Pharmaceutical companies are a for-profit private business, with the FDA racking in half of a billion dollars each year from NDA's.
Needless to say, there's plenty of lobbyists making sure the cash flow doesn't stop.
Sorry, I can't help you out with any info on prescription MAOI's for ayahuasca. Any reason why you'd choose that over MAOI containing plants?