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Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: Snoopish on January 07, 2013, 02:33 am

Title: God, the Universe, and Ideas on Reality with Science welcome!
Post by: Snoopish on January 07, 2013, 02:33 am
Seems pretty general so I hope this hasn't been covered too much previously. This forum area appeared during a bit of a hiatus for me and I haven't had much chance to look into it until recently but I find it fascinating chance to share ideas. 

Two Quick Rules:

1) Please discuss your opinions as either "ideas" or "opinions". A friend of mind said when he stopped thinking of his belief system as more of a series of ideas that he thought might be right it made it easier for him to examine other perspectives.

2) Please do not attack a person for their ideas or opinions. From my research, I don't think this thread will come up with any reality-destroying ideas about how our existence works. However, with enough open-minded and light-hearted discussion perhaps some of us will come away from this thread with some new ideas (or at least a rather long list of recommended readings).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In short, I know there are some psychonauts on here who are believers in a higher structure (god, energy, fate, whatever you wish) while many laugh at such ridiculous notions.

I'd like to withhold any of my ideas for the time and ask if others have thoughts on is there a god? Why do you believe that? How was the universe formed (no big-bang please: yes it started where we are at now but there was the presence of matter before the bang so please, if mentioning this, address your idea of what brought about such a genesis).

How do you feel we experience reality? Are our experiences real? Our are lives a fine 0-100 year trip in this world and then it's over? Did we live before this as a different collection of atoms with a core, a "soul" if you will? How does reality exist?

Perception varies between people so do we all actually live in the same world?  (Ex: is the world I'm in the same as yours if I'm on 5g of mushrooms and you are sober? Or, mundanely, if I am having a shitty day and you are having a great day are our worlds still the same?)

I only have light knowledge of physics, religion, philosophy, and any other topics that may be discussed which is why I'd like to start some discussion. Don't feel the need to address everything or anything particular, just discuss your ideas.

****************************

I'll start off with this assertion: All religious doctrine (from the Bible to the Words of Siddhartha Gautama) should be respected for the wisdom they have to offer but, in themselves, should be read as scholarly works and not infallible documents of Truth.

That said, although I'm no longer as sold as I am about this next idea as I was years ago when I read into it, I want to throw one more idea of mine out there: Rene Descartes discussed the possibility of a god by saying we could not imagine something that did not exist (i.e. man developed an idea of something that is omnipotent/infinite despite never experiencing such a thing--therefore, a thing, or god, that has omnipotence must exist). I've read strong criticisms against Descartes but these are two lines of thought I hope might give you rest an idea of the kinds of things I'd like to see discussed.

One more: in physics, it's been discovered that light can behave as a particle or as a wave depending on whether or not it is observed. If this is  how light works, does the universe need an omniscient observer to influence light?


As I said, I'm a scholar in none of these areas but a dabbler in all. If I have stated anything poorly or innacurately, please bring that to my attention and I will make the appropriate corrections (and if you have readily available literature to back up corrections, all the better!) but let's not get bogged down in making reference pages for our ideas and more focus on interacting and question why we think what we do and how it all ties in to this world we are apart of...or are we apart of different, overlapping worlds? :P

Cheers and I hope this sparks some interest as I enjoy some good philosophical discussion,

Snoopish
Title: Re: God, the Universe, and Ideas on Reality with Science welcome!
Post by: slika on January 07, 2013, 09:39 am
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Title: Re: God, the Universe, and Ideas on Reality with Science welcome!
Post by: Snoopish on January 07, 2013, 11:16 am
Well...that was enlightening...
Title: Re: God, the Universe, and Ideas on Reality with Science welcome!
Post by: Schmuckk on January 07, 2013, 02:47 pm
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SHUT THE FUCK UP

That aside, I will not claim to have any real knowledge on any of the subjects you have brought up, but I will do my best to contribute to the discussion. I'm afraid my post will add more questions than it does answers.

An interesting question I have seen some raise is "does reality exist beyond perception?" that is, if you are looking at a chair most would say that the chair is part of reality, or at least in your own reality. However, when you turn around, does the chair still exist?
The Primacy of Consciousness theory argues that we each create our own individual realities through our perceptions. However, there are refutations to this.
The Primacy of Existence principle says, in a nutshell that we cannot have perception unless there is a pre-existing object for us to perceive. If one were to accept this principle, they would also have to concede that we all live in the same reality; If I consume a large dose of ketamine everyone else's reality is not transformed as my perception of reality is, because my perception is dependent on reality, not the other way around.

As for your religion question, I think you may be interested in looking into Christopher Langan's CMTU theory. I'm not even going to attempt to explain it, it's way too much for me to wrap my mind around.
Happy reading!
Title: Re: God, the Universe, and Ideas on Reality with Science welcome!
Post by: Snoopish on January 07, 2013, 03:56 pm

An interesting question I have seen some raise is "does reality exist beyond perception?" that is, if you are looking at a chair most would say that the chair is part of reality, or at least in your own reality. However, when you turn around, does the chair still exist?
The Primacy of Consciousness theory argues that we each create our own individual realities through our perceptions. However, there are refutations to this.
The Primacy of Existence principle says, in a nutshell that we cannot have perception unless there is a pre-existing object for us to perceive. If one were to accept this principle, they would also have to concede that we all live in the same reality; If I consume a large dose of ketamine everyone else's reality is not transformed as my perception of reality is, because my perception is dependent on reality, not the other way around.

As for your religion question, I think you may be interested in looking into Christopher Langan's CMTU theory. I'm not even going to attempt to explain it, it's way too much for me to wrap my mind around.
Happy reading!

This is exactly the kind of stuff I was going for! I'm not familiar with either of those principles or Langan so I'll be eager to check these things out and see what I can take from it. I realize there aren't likely any answers to the questions or ideas I brought up but I enjoy discussing them anyways because it's a good mental exercise and then I discover new things to investigate (like these three theories you offered!).

Cheers!


Snoopish
Title: Re: God, the Universe, and Ideas on Reality with Science welcome!
Post by: Barbijuana on January 07, 2013, 09:41 pm
I was observing a forum discussion about Evolution vs Creationism and had a passing thought.

Those, like myself, that believe in Science being an answer to the meaning of life (That's what we're all here for right?) but don't accept that the line of thinking in Science could be just as well portrayed as a school of thought just as Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and the like. We see the evidence so concrete, clear and correct that it becomes ludicrous that anyone else would think any other way (I think some Holy wars have been championed with that very same line of thinking). To the point, I watched this debate rage in this forum and I see it as two religions fighting about which God is correct. I obviously see Science as correct, because it does so well proving itself... with Science.  ;)

We see our Doctors and PhD or prestigious Harvard teachers as the hierarchy of Science. They are our priests and ministers and the most "enlightened" in the field of Science. Just as a Messiah or Pope must be to the Religiously inclined. I've come to challenge my own beliefs many times and I've settled on that it doesn't really matter what I do or don't believe in. What is important is having a sense of purpose and however you perceive that is filled. Be it God, Family, Science or Violence.
Title: Re: God, the Universe, and Ideas on Reality with Science welcome!
Post by: Bonfils1 on January 10, 2013, 09:12 am


How do you feel we experience reality? Are our experiences real? Our are lives a fine 0-100 year trip in this world and then it's over? Did we live before this as a different collection of atoms with a core, a "soul" if you will? How does reality exist?

Perception varies between people so do we all actually live in the same world?  (Ex: is the world I'm in the same as yours if I'm on 5g of mushrooms and you are sober? Or, mundanely, if I am having a shitty day and you are having a great day are our worlds still the same?)

I only have light knowledge of physics, religion, philosophy, and any other topics that may be discussed which is why I'd like to start some discussion. Don't feel the need to address everything or anything particular, just discuss your ideas.

****************************

...

One more: in physics, it's been discovered that light can behave as a particle or as a wave depending on whether or not it is observed. If this is  how light works, does the universe need an omniscient observer to influence light?


Hi Snoopish,

I've decided to deal with these selectively. There's a lot to discuss :)

Basically I subscribe to the scientific theory that our universe is a virtual reality; a simulation which we experience. As such, our physical bodies are part of the simulation. What constitutes the simulation as 'real' (my computer... my body.. the table.. chemicals in my head, etc.) - is in fact just information that is processed. The experiences are 'real' insofar as yes they're here, and they're tangible - but only if you view it from a localised perspective (i.e. from within our universe). The take home message is that nothing is really 'real' or 'there' - their materialisation as real and physical is merely one manifestation of a set of probabilities. In order to materialise (or "collapse the wave function" as according to the double slit experiment in quantum mechanics), a wave function must be collapsed by observation.

Further, our experiences as human beings and physical bodies is experienced through consciousness. Consciousness is the fundamental reality. That is to say, there is a primordial consciousness which is seemingly infinite (but not literally infinite - nothing 'real' can be mathematically infinite), of which every conscious being or entity possesses. Thus you do not have consciousness, you 'are' consciousness or you are conscious. Therefore the destruction or death of the physical body, as real as it is (i.e. it will probably hurt and it could suck), does not mean the end of our existence per se - you are still consciousness (i.e. the 'real you'). After death you may choose a new experience packet (as a human being in the same universe or the other seemingly infinite possibilities). The purpose of life, or existence, and rebirth, is for our consciousness to lower its entropy - to become a more profitable state, as part of the whole, in order that the whole (larger consciousness ), can be improved. High entropy - non profitable, regressive, destructive - the most basic reducible form of which is fear. Low entropy - profitable, progressive, growth - the most basic and ultimate form of which is love. This is not merely love as emotion, but love as a state of being. And so therefore individual units of consciousness (me.. you.. your neighbour and his dog) live a life experience - and the idea is to lower entropy. There is no divine imperative or coercion though - you can either go forwards or backwards and free will is in full effect and motion.

Because we are consciousness, our conscious selves are not entirely constrained by objective reality - which accounts for unmeasurable psi phenomena such as out of body experiences due to the fact that it is an artifact or function of consciousness, i.e. not a function or result of physical or objective processes and thus cannot be measured by tools that are the outputs of physical or objective processes. A lot of this can be experienced through meditation and reaching point consciousness, that is the point whereby you experience 'you' as consciousness without your physical incarnation.

There is much more to this, much more than I can type :) - alot of which I deduce or have learned from Thomas Campbell - you can find a lot of his material free online - and he bases his hypotheses and theories from the double slit experiment and quantum mechanics. There is also a great article on arxiv by Brian Whitworth on the universe as a simulation.

Happy to answer questions or discuss further, would love to hear your thoughts.
Title: Re: God, the Universe, and Ideas on Reality with Science welcome!
Post by: Snoopish on January 18, 2013, 08:43 pm
@Bonfils: I like what you have to say about consciousness. I think a lot of reality is definitely a matter of perception. I'm not sure how I feel about the whole collective identity of the universe--which it sounds like is what you are getting at. I mean, I could see it making sense because, from a physical sense, our original bodies are already dead--replaced by duplicate cells that, while supposedly identical, are nevertheless different on some level. So in regards to death, it's hard to say what experience is derived after that point.

Also, the entropy discussion is interesting but I'm not sure I'd agree that fear is the only (or at least main) point of highest entropy. Positive and negative emotions both can be considered to have high entropy--passion, lust, terror. While what would be lowest seems like it would be inner peace, acceptance. Again, this discussion would assume that the universe, and not just ourselves as humans, have some degree of experience or awareness.

I started this thread because I really don't know what I believe in any of these respects but you present some interesting ideas and I'm going to have to look up this Thomas Campbell. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I know it took me a while to get around to reply but I spent a bit of time thinking on your words.


Cheers
Title: Re: God, the Universe, and Ideas on Reality with Science welcome!
Post by: valakki on January 22, 2013, 02:48 am

I started this thread because I really don't know what I believe in any of these respects but you present some interesting ideas and I'm going to have to look up this Thomas Campbell. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I know it took me a while to get around to reply but I spent a bit of time thinking on your words.


You don't have to believe anything. Have you thought about this? Belief can give hope if you need it. That is the whore reason it exist.  but do you need this kind of hope? or can you live without it?
There is no way to prove a lot of things people believe in. To God or not to God. That is the question. But why? Ask yourself. Why do i need this in my life? If you got the answer then by all means go for it...
Title: Re: God, the Universe, and Ideas on Reality with Science welcome!
Post by: Snoopish on January 23, 2013, 06:05 am
One of my friends said it is better to hold ideas than beliefs. I feel that's what you are getting at. When I say I don't know what I believe I guess I may as well say I don't believe in anything at the moment. I have some ideas about how things work but, ultimately, I just know what I experience. Everything else is just the imaginings of my crazy mind.


Cheers