Silk Road forums

Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: joywind on June 03, 2013, 05:43 am

Title: LSD Insanity
Post by: joywind on June 03, 2013, 05:43 am
What appears to project some LSD users into a temporary 'insanity' is the cracking of their picture of themselves-- the disintegration of the ego. I have a certain idea of myself, and when that is destroyed -- or when the cornerstone is pulled down, then I am suddenly left adrift -- not knowing who I am, where I am, or what is reality.

Now it is interesting to observe that not everyone seems to have to deal with the disintegration of the ego on the insane level. I have a hunch it is related to the temperament and defensive system of the individual involved. Those who must most strongly defend on the intellectual, controlled, rational level (against the other parts of themselves -- really against their own unconscious) seem to be the ones who are most likely to hit the skids in this direction. In examining myself, it seems to me that it was in some way related to fear -- fear of unreality, or of being alone -- of not existing, etc.

That is, when it is experienced as insanity and not as symbolic hell or purgation. This latter gem comes to everyone some time....
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: jackofspades on June 03, 2013, 01:00 pm
I Love
  S
  D
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: SealTeam6 on June 03, 2013, 01:50 pm
I find that I get to know myself and others even better when on a LSD trip!
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: Arakniid on June 03, 2013, 09:59 pm
Ive found when Ive looked in the mirror and Im tripping Ill dissect my whole life and go through all the bad things about me that I should change and I can do this for a good 10-15 minutes without even realizing how accurate everything actually is
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: abitpeckish on June 03, 2013, 11:50 pm
This is why it's best to know what the fuck you're getting into before doing it, and not to trust the conclusions you come to until after you have had ample time to investigate them. As you yourself have shown in multiple other threads, joywind, LSD can also lead us to make ridiculous and wholly unsupportable claims about the nature/purpose of existence.
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: joywind on June 04, 2013, 12:05 am
This is why it's best to know what the fuck you're getting into before doing it, and not to trust the conclusions you come to until after you have had ample time to investigate them. As you yourself have shown in multiple other threads, joywind, LSD can also lead us to make ridiculous and wholly unsupportable claims about the nature/purpose of existence.
Your beliefs are false because you are a materialist. You start from false assumptions about the nature of reality, so your conclusions are wrong. LSD doesn't make me do or think anything. I am anti-LSD.
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: abitpeckish on June 04, 2013, 12:37 am
Of course I'm a materialist. And a naturalist. And a determinist. And an atheist. And an agnostic. And an ethicist. And a secularist. And (very narrowly) a Buddhist. All of these views are available for your modification, as soon as you demonstrate why they are "false assumptions". I am committed to truth above all things, so far as I can know it and show it. I've yet to see anything close to reason brought forth by you that isn't almost immediately followed by or swallowed whole by utter nonsense. So perhaps you can see why I might find your claims of my "false assumptions" to be ... amusing.
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: joywind on June 04, 2013, 01:24 am
Of course I'm a materialist.
Then prove that materialism is true because all of your arguments presuppose (without argument, I might add) the truth of materialism. Then show that your conclusions logically follow from the materialist worldview.  Until you have done both of these things, there's no point in further discussion.
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: BreakOnThrough on June 04, 2013, 01:46 am
This is why it's best to know what the fuck you're getting into before doing it, and not to trust the conclusions you come to until after you have had ample time to investigate them. As you yourself have shown in multiple other threads, joywind, LSD can also lead us to make ridiculous and wholly unsupportable claims about the nature/purpose of existence.
Your beliefs are false because you are a materialist. You start from false assumptions about the nature of reality, so your conclusions are wrong. LSD doesn't make me do or think anything. I am anti-LSD.
Can I ask why you're anti LSD?
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: Ben on June 04, 2013, 02:02 am
That would be odd indeed - LSD will temporarely change your view of things, but normally this change is not something that remains very long. Perhaos you would be more suitable to take something likt DMT however, also a potent hallucinogen but with a very short window of action.

Personally i do not like hallucinate, but taking a short trip there using a substance like dmt will probably not affect you that much. Within an hour or so you will have experienced what is available, and if you dislike it you have the choice of not doing it again, ever.
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: SealTeam6 on June 04, 2013, 02:10 am
Of course I'm a materialist. And a naturalist. And a determinist. And an atheist. And an agnostic. And an ethicist. And a secularist. And (very narrowly) a Buddhist. All of these views are available for your modification, as soon as you demonstrate why they are "false assumptions". I am committed to truth above all things, so far as I can know it and show it. I've yet to see anything close to reason brought forth by you that isn't almost immediately followed by or swallowed whole by utter nonsense. So perhaps you can see why I might find your claims of my "false assumptions" to be ... amusing.

amen
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: abitpeckish on June 04, 2013, 03:48 am
Then prove that materialism is true because all of your arguments presuppose (without argument, I might add) the truth of materialism. Then show that your conclusions logically follow from the materialist worldview.  Until you have done both of these things, there's no point in further discussion.

This is backwards thinking. I'm not the one making claims. You claim there is something to existence that is fundamentally immaterial. I simply don't claim this, and will refuse to make this claim until I come across or am presented with evidence of such a claim. You don't get to place the burden of proof on me when you're the one making outlandish claims that you are demonstrably unequipped to support. I'd love to have this conversation, but first you have to actually support your claims. If you can't, it is perfectly reasonable for me to discard them until you can figure out how to do so.
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: joywind on June 04, 2013, 04:24 am
This is backwards thinking.
No, I want to discuss things in logical order. You begin with the premise that materialism is true. You derive conclusions about spirituality based on this presupposition. In this thread, you have claimed that my beliefs are "ridiculous" based on this presupposition. It is perfectly logical to discuss one's philosophical presuppositions prior to discussing any claims that follow from our presuppositions. For you it is materialism. If we don't discuss materialism first, we'd be like a Jungian and a Skinnerian behaviouralist debating the meaning of archetypes emanating from the collective unconscious. It would be impossible to make any progress in such a discussion because we would be starting from radically different paradigms about the nature of reality.

I'm not the one making claims.
Yes you are. You claim, or rather presuppose, the existence of "matter" as existing independently of consciousness.

Quote
You claim there is something to existence that is fundamentally immaterial.
Do you deny the existence of consciousness? I have no experience of anything that is non-consciousness. Can you describe something that exists independently of consciousness? What is the evidence that it exists outside of consciousness? I can guarantee that you have not spent any more than thirty minutes investigating whether or not such a thing as matter even exists. Like most atheists, this is something you simply take for granted.

Quote
I simply don't claim this, and will refuse to make this claim until I come across or am presented with evidence of such a claim.
I simply don't claim the existence of matter, and will refuse to make this claim until I am presented with evidence for its existence. I am simply not aware of anything that exists outside of mind. The burden of proof is on the materialists to demonstrate the existence of the material world.

Quote
You don't get to place the burden of proof on me when you're the one making outlandish claims
The burden of proof is entirely on you. Materialism is not some something that can be assumed on a priori grounds. It is a philosophical worldview that must be supported by argument, else the conclusions derived therefrom are of questionable value at best.

Quote
I'd love to have this conversation, but first you have to actually support your claims. If you can't, it is perfectly reasonable for me to discard them until you can figure out how to do so.
It is impossible to have such a discussion until we have discussed the problem of materialism.
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: Lucius Luv on June 04, 2013, 05:55 am
the cracking of my ego is exactly what happened prior to personal episodes of complete insanity on lsd.  My mind became scattered to the point of unreality.  I went insane,  realized it, yet couldn't do anything consciously to regain reality again.

My system shutdown physically when insanity attained a point of complete saturation.  I became completely immobile, and even blacked out on lsd on few occasions.  My bouts of insanity has always taken me to some type of personal hell; a place where a mirror of my soul is affixed to magnifying glass.  I am then left alone, forced to judge my own hypocrisies. After judgment, i am then transitioned  into the next phase of reality. 

in relation to a multiverse multi dimensional reality, i sometimes think i altered my own reality using lsd.  I remember specific scenes of living a completely different reality while insane on lsd. It felt as if i was forced to "blend" in and out of different dimensions, sorta like bi-location.   Now, insanity is one thing.  But my highest of enjoyments is periods of pure supernatural bliss.  On these chemicals, when i am in "super brain" mode, i get visions of very detailed symbols which look egyptian/sanskrit/alien in form.  Symbols burned into my skin, and completely immersed in my vision.  They glow vibrant color, and a 3D like.  Controlling this level of being is what i feel should be my ultimate goal; i still have lots of work to do. 
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: Chip Douglas on June 04, 2013, 06:15 am
Wow! All those "-isms" and "ists". I'm an oldie but goodie, and took copious amounts of LSD in the 70's and 80's, and only recently tried it again (now in my late 40's). - Those Albert Hoffmans from the Netherlands are some of the smoothest non-speedy LSD I've ever tried.

I go back to the days of Yellow-barrel, Orange-Sunshine, Purple-Haze, (or Purple microdot), and many others.

Certain individuals, I've learned, who are already predisposed to schizophrenia, or may even have a latency for the disease, ie;  schizophrenia lay dormant in them, and may well have stayed that way, but the trauma of an intense acid trip, triggered that which lay below the surface.

A few good friends never came back, very very sad. :( - Much like Syd Barrett - Founder of Pink Floyd. - My friend and I used to dare each other to take more. We once took 10 hits of Red Windowpane which was very strong shit that was around NYC in the early 80's. One night we took 4 hits of this Blue Moon BLotter, and I had the most intense trip ever. I literally ran home, and it was as if I were in a cartoon. I stood in my backyard, and the branches of an apple tree (in Winter) looked like a huge spider web, and of course "along came the spider!"  Ahhh!!!

I looked into the 6 pane bow window from the back of my parents house, and saw my parents watching TV, but there were 4 of each of them, each doing different things!

I went round to the front door, and just yelled out "I'm home, I'm going to bed". - Went to my room, got under the covers, and turned out the light.

BIG Mistake! - I went right into a 6 hour Yellow Submarine/Peter Max cartoon land. - It was amazing and terrifying at the same time.

My friend and I figure we had stronger minds than most. As our circle of friends disappeared, because we were "too weird and took too much acid" ..LoL

We both led full lives later, married, kids, house, etc. Middle class suburban bliss. - Now both divorced, kids in college. We're starting to trip all over again!

As far as beliefs go? I don't care what yours is, as long as it doesn't affect my life negatively, and what I believe doesn't really matter, does it?

Just some ramblings from an old fool who was the little brother of a bunch of hippie chicks.  8)
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: abitpeckish on June 04, 2013, 06:44 pm
This is backwards thinking.
No, I want to discuss things in logical order. You begin with the premise that materialism is true.

I hold the opinion that the cosmos is material, but I'm perfectly willing to modify that opinion if it becomes reasonable to do so. What you fail to acknowledge about my premise is that it is agnostic, whereas yours is gnostic. This is why your placement of proof burdens upon me is backwards.

Your claims must cohere with the world as we commonly experience it, or at least be testable as such. Otherwise they are just speculative, which would be fine if you posited them as such.

Quote from: joywind
You derive conclusions about spirituality based on this presupposition. In this thread, you have claimed that my beliefs are "ridiculous" based on this presupposition. It is perfectly logical to discuss one's philosophical presuppositions prior to discussing any claims that follow from our presuppositions. For you it is materialism. If we don't discuss materialism first, we'd be like a Jungian and a Skinnerian behaviouralist debating the meaning of archetypes emanating from the collective unconscious. It would be impossible to make any progress in such a discussion because we would be starting from radically different paradigms about the nature of reality.

Your claims are ridiculous because you can provide no way in which to validate them. My claims are not because many people can have and have had the category of experience we're speaking of without being tricked into thinking that they are exactly true in the exact form that we experience them. You're being purposefully blind to the a priori context that your brain provides you, and as such you are allowing yourself to irrationally draw conclusions.


Quote from: joywind
I'm not the one making claims.
Yes you are. You claim, or rather presuppose, the existence of "matter" as existing independently of consciousness.

I addressed this above. I claim to know what I can reasonably know, and anything further I cannot claim with any expectation of actual veracity. I understand my experience as truth experienced by a human brain, you claim your experience as actual truth. Even if you end up being right, it will be purely by accident.

You're misunderstanding my disagreement with your intellectual nonsense as a belief that your beliefs are untrue. I'm just telling you that you have not shown them to be true, and continue to fail at doing so. Some assumptions I am willing to make, others I am not. The existence of the supernatural is not an assumption I am willing to make, as it is nonsensical to do so. If it exists, it is natural. Present a case that truly suggests otherwise and I'll be happy to explore it with you.

Quote from: joywind
Quote from: abitpeckish
You claim there is something to existence that is fundamentally immaterial.
Do you deny the existence of consciousness?

Of course not. I deny that you or anyone has ever proven its existence is immaterial, either necessarily or empirically. Consciousness is a hard problem. I find it suspicious that you seem to be claiming you've "solved" it, and I find your "solution" to be rather specious.

Quote from: joywind
I have no experience of anything that is non-consciousness.

So why are you claiming knowledge of its true nature?

Quote from: joywind
Can you describe something that exists independently of consciousness? What is the evidence that it exists outside of consciousness? I can guarantee that you have not spent any more than thirty minutes investigating whether or not such a thing as matter even exists. Like most atheists, this is something you simply take for granted.

At some point we all have to make some fundamental assumptions, that much is a given. "Matter exists" is a perfectly reasonable assumption to make, both as an analogue to "truth exists" and as a matter of making any fucking sense at all about any discussion we will ever have. I'm perfectly willing to allow that the cosmos consists of both matter and nothingness, but you're going to have to do better than this if you're going to convince me that this necessitates an anthropocentric/morphic, singularly conscious god.

Quote from: joywind
Quote from: abitpeckish
I simply don't claim this, and will refuse to make this claim until I come across or am presented with evidence of such a claim.
I simply don't claim the existence of matter, and will refuse to make this claim until I am presented with evidence for its existence. I am simply not aware of anything that exists outside of mind. The burden of proof is on the materialists to demonstrate the existence of the material world.

I present you with...all of commonly experienced existence. You can derez the meaning of the word "screen" all you like, but there's still a thing in front of you from which your brain is consuming the symbolized thoughts of mine. Here we're presented with a dilemma, where you can say the same thing about "spiritual experience", but that dilemma is easily solved through simple utility[1]. What can you *do* with the knowledge gained from "this keyboard exists" as opposed to "a singular god with awareness and personality exists", and more importantly what happens to your experience when you claim their respective non-existence?

Quote from: joywind
Quote from: abitpeckish
You don't get to place the burden of proof on me when you're the one making outlandish claims
The burden of proof is entirely on you. Materialism is not some something that can be assumed on a priori grounds. It is a philosophical worldview that must be supported by argument, else the conclusions derived therefrom are of questionable value at best.

Quote from: abitpeckish
I'd love to have this conversation, but first you have to actually support your claims. If you can't, it is perfectly reasonable for me to discard them until you can figure out how to do so.
It is impossible to have such a discussion until we have discussed the problem of materialism.

The same can be said of the problem of As I said above, at some point we all have to make a priori assumptions. Recursion is inexorably part of discursive thought, which you will notice in all human understanding regardless of their validity[2]. We have to start somewhere. So it ultimately comes down to what is the most reasonable starting position, which should always be in the context of agnosticism. Perhaps you're right about the nature of existence, it's definitely possible. But (again) even if you were it would be by happy accident, as you're clearly wrong about WHY you'd be right.

---

[1] this is not me saying that questions of existence, purpose, etc boil down to utilitarian answers. i think utilitarianism has its pitfalls, and is at times almost ironically not all that useful. but this is a different discussion.
[2] e.g. all sciences operate upon a priori assumptions
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: abitpeckish on June 11, 2013, 10:57 am
Of course I'm a materialist. And a naturalist. And a determinist. And an atheist. And an agnostic. And an ethicist. And a secularist. And (very narrowly) a Buddhist. All of these views are available for your modification, as soon as you demonstrate why they are "false assumptions". I am committed to truth above all things, so far as I can know it and show it. I've yet to see anything close to reason brought forth by you that isn't almost immediately followed by or swallowed whole by utter nonsense. So perhaps you can see why I might find your claims of my "false assumptions" to be ... amusing.


You are too funny, man :)

There are no truths; there are only observed and validated patterns of matter and energy if you subscribe to science. If not then then you can say anything and believe in anything.

You just said "there are no truths, just things that are observably true".
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: BlackIris on June 11, 2013, 11:12 am
No, he said that there are no objective truths of reality because everything you call "objective truth" is filtered by your consciousness, so it is inevitably tied to subjectivity. What you call "objective truth" is just a group consensus built upon subjective parameters created for convenience by us as a specie, but there cannot be no objective truth in the real sense just because there's no way to come to an objective consensus about reality outside that subjective synthesis. It's impossible to separate the viewed from the viewer, and as such it is impossible to determine what the viewed objectively is.

We humans are part of the 3D plane we live in, we see this plane from INSIDE it (we are always in the center). The only way to really know the objective reality of this 3D plane would be to experience it from the OUTSIDE of it, as in 4D, but this is NOT possible - at last for now (and maybe never).
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: abitpeckish on June 11, 2013, 12:15 pm
No, he said that there are no objective truths of reality because everything you call "objective truth" is filtered by your consciousness, so it is inevitably tied to subjectivity.


I feel like I've visited this terrain already in these forums, but for now I'll play along. I reserve the right to begin answering with links to other of my posts.

Quote
What you call "objective truth" is just a group consensus built upon subjective parameters created for convenience by us as a specie, but there cannot be no objective truth in the real sense just because there's no way to come to an objective consensus about reality outside that subjective synthesis. It's impossible to separate the viewed from the viewer, and as such it is impossible to determine what the viewed objectively is.

Would you agree that some "group consensuses" are more true than others? Be careful to think deeply about what your answer to this question means, not only in a philosophical sense, but functionally as well.

Quote
We humans are part of the 3D plane we live in, we see this plane from INSIDE it (we are always in the center). The only way to really know the objective reality of this 3D plane would be to experience it from the OUTSIDE of it, as in 4D, but this is NOT possible - at last for now (and maybe never).

Even if this is true, why would that be the ONLY way to know objective truths? The intellectual position you're taking clearly does not map to the strange fact that we already know so much about our plane of existence.
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: BlackIris on June 11, 2013, 01:40 pm
Would you agree that some "group consensuses" are more true than others? Be careful to think deeply about what your answer to this question means, not only in a philosophical sense, but functionally as well.

It depends on what you intend for "functionality". If you intend for it a mean for a certain specie as a group to function better in a given circumstance, then yes; the problem is when the group consensus meant for functionality becomes instead a dogma that replaces altogether the motive why that group consensus was adhered to to being with.

As it is now in the majority of western thought the subjective consensus has become regarded as objective reality, and this pose as an obstacle instead than as an advantage meant for practical purposes (as it should be). Consider for example the internal world, imagination/hallucinations and in general the planes you can visit through the unconscious. These are considered by western thought as totally subjective (and so unreal) planes. Yet they participate of the same exact subjective nature of what it is instead labeled as objective "reality", the only difference stands in that group consensus, that however, as we have already established, is based on subjective parameters in the same exact way.

Yet what are considered "subjective planes" and "unreal" have in themselves the capability of creating in the same way a subjective group consensus (if researched upon), that, as a result, would create an "objective reality" out of them in the same exact way - as it happens in shamanic cultures, for example. The only motive why it doesn't happen in western thought it is just because of that approach based on purely arbitrary parameters that established that two subjective planes in the same exact way are considered one as "objective" and "real" and the other "subjective" and "unreal" because of that group consensus (a *subjective* group consensus itself), that established as real and objective (for its functionality) what gives the *impression* of being external till this group consensus became a so strong dogma as to replace altogether its functional premise and become objective reality itself, hence blocking the experience and research of other possible similar group synthesis on which to base an "objective reality".

Another great drawback of the dogma is that in western cultures people are totally unaware of the premise of the dogma and as such they totally believe something completely subjective to being completely objective, hence obstructing their research of the truth for a thing that was NOT born for this. Even worse with their dogma they feed the dogma itself, hence literally turning into objective reality the world as it is for everyone (also if this concept it is too complicate to debate here).

Even if this is true, why would that be the ONLY way to know objective truths? The intellectual position you're taking clearly does not map to the strange fact that we already know so much about our plane of existence.

Our plane of existence is just one of the many planes existing. It is only for the motive already mentioned that it has become in western thought the ONLY real plane existent, even if this makes no sense at all from a purely logical (and experiential - only that naturally in this case the experience comes from a much smaller group of people, and sometimes with completely different base cultures hence establishing a group consensus even more difficult - given the status of the things) point of view.

And anyway what we consider our plane of existence and its nature is just, again, a subjective consensus; we don't know what this plane of existence REALLY is, just because we cannot go beyond the subjective filter that make us perceive it.
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: abitpeckish on June 11, 2013, 06:10 pm
Quote from: goodshitexplorer
They are not truths, they are observed patterns. You are considering them to be be true. Things do change in science. According to your thought a TRUTH is then replaced with another TRUTH. To me they are all related to pattern. Just the inference is changed based on new understanding. That's what science do if you understand the philosophy of it.

Of course things change in science, that's how science works. The assumption that truths exist is built in to knowing when an idea or statement is MORE true than a competing idea or statement. You may choose to deny the existence of facts and yet lo and behold, the cosmos does not conform to your denial. There can be no understanding without truths to be known, or at least drawn into progressively improving focus.
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: PsychedelicSphere on June 11, 2013, 06:30 pm
Simply put, LSD makes me think. It makes me think about everything, and yeah, sometimes it makes me think about thinks completely illogically, but that isn't always bad. There are too many close minded people in this world when we need open minded thinkers. LSD helps me open my mind and think about things from a completely new perspective that sometimes contradicts reality.

~PsychedelicSphere
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: abitpeckish on June 11, 2013, 08:03 pm
Science does not assume and approach towards anything thinking something is true/truth. It approaches to find pattern. Sometimes scientists do predict the pattern first and then approach to validate them and sometimes they find new pattern in the process of validating some others. Again no truths, just patterns. If you consider the validated patterns to be truths then it's your call. Hope that makes sense!               

Science makes a foundational assumption that truths exist and that it is a good idea to find them out. Sometimes these truths are about patterns, sometimes they are about singular events. Truth as a concept is not necessarily static, and there are many truths we simply will never know, but to say that truths don't exist is just playing a word game.
Title: Re: LSD Insanity
Post by: leaf on June 11, 2013, 10:11 pm
That is, when it is experienced as insanity and not as symbolic hell or purgation. This latter gem comes to everyone some time....

My buddy calls this the "introspective nightmare"     ;D