Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: Virmo on October 30, 2012, 11:11 am
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Ok, so you can let bitcoinfog launder your money by having them send random amounts to random accounts and then returning other ones into your account. (correct me if I'm wrong).
You can also use anonymous sending from blockinfo or blockchain, whatever.
Is there really a significant difference between using bitfog, and doing it yourself through multiple throw away wallets while using different ip's? I don't see how that could be traced when done properly (taking timing, amounts, etc into account). I've read about statistical analysis done by researchers who were trying to track somebody who appeared to have stolen a huge amount of bitcoins by hacking one's account.
They find traces, but they couldn't find him.
I just think it's quite impossible to trace bitcoins to somebody, unless one uses his own ip and the same wallet everytime...
No bitfog needed.
What are your thoughts about this?
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You could "cover your tracks" with multiple wallets and moving different amounts etc. but it would be a lot of hassle IMO. Also Bitcoin Fog tumbles your bitcoins with other users bitcoins thus making it impossible to trace. In fact it is very unlikely the bitcoins you put in are the same as the bitcoins you take out. It is so easy to use and worth the small fee they charge - between 1% and 3% of your deposit and randomized.
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SMall depending on the amount you put in. But yeah it's not a lot.
But I'm wondering about how much more tracable it is without such a tumbler?
For instance:
You have a normal, legal wallet. You then use tor and get a throw away wallet. Switch identity, get a new one, and so forth. You send different amounts to different wallets and then into SR.
IMO, nobody could prove where it came from. Or are bitcoins fingerprinted? I think they are but I didn't really understand the material.
They may spook us with "statistical analysis", but an outcome with p <.005 or .5 simply means it's hypothetically plausible, but not a fact. Which means it can't be proven for a 100%, which gives people plausible deniability on the bitcoin part. Together with the same for denying ordering drugs through mail. Ofcourse, if 100 dollars go from back into wallets and a certain amount of drugs arrives in the mail, everybody would assume you ordered it. But you can still say that you spend it on digital goods and traded with anonymous people.
Without hard evidence, no sentence right?
To me the biggest problem (if the previous of what I said is right) is lying about it as a human being. But I found out there is a drug that lessens emotions which can be very helpful in these cases. Plus ofcourse you'll need a clean, well protected pc.
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It is the difference between unlinkability and plausible deniability.
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I understand that unlinkable is 100% safe, but I'm not sure what plausible deniability means. My guess is that it will be more plausible if you already have a bad record and then it just adds up to it making you look even more bad?
My assumption is now that tumbling is better than doing it yourself. Since doing it yourself can not be done as well as the service bitfog provides, because you need a lot of users for that.
If anyone knows about how bitcoins are fingerprinted/what that means/has a good link, it'd be very welcome.
My english is better than average, but not perfect. So I have some difficulties here and there with understanding english websites.
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I understand that unlinkable is 100% safe, but I'm not sure what plausible deniability means.
If you use bitcoin fog, you send them your bitcoins, and they send bitcoins to you from another account. The bitcoins you get out of bitcoinfog will be unlinkable to those you put into it.
If you bounce the bitcoins through various wallets yourself, then somebody can follow them through the blockchain. You can see they went from address X to Y to Z, and eventually to an account linkable to you (depending on the way you turn them into cash). Then you can deny that address X, Y and Z belong to you, that they're somebody else's, and then it's difficult to prove it wrong. you have deniability, but it's not unlinkable.
If you're going to tumble bitcoins yourself, you should have a pool of bitcoins, divided over various addresses, that you regularly tumble. Then when you add coins to one address, you take them out of another, and continue tumbling the pool.
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Aaargh something weird is happening to me with this forum.
Just posted something but it's not here.
So, once again:
When I check blockchain, the trail stops with the last wallet sending to SR. Two random wallet id's show up.
The SR could be checked on blockchain to see where the btc's came from and I think they are accurate.
But if there is nothing on the pc that has anything to do with sr, then is it really significantly better to use bitfog?
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How can they prove it went to sr? Each deposit addy is different and the btc are tumbled when you make a purchase. Or am i mistaken about that? All they could trace is that some btc went from you to another account. From there many withdrawals were made. The btc the vendor gets are not directly from the buyer. If i'm wrong then someone explain it better because thats what i heard. I heard the btc are put into a pool before they go to the vendor and mixed.
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If the SR server gets confiscated and all BTC addresses known to the police, then those who tumbled their BTC are still hard to trace.
As long as SR is working properly and the location and the contents of the server stay secret, then indeed it is very hard to prove which BTC went to (or came from) SR.
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That's why people need to change their wallet addresses from time to time I think?
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I think it's pretty obvious that you should change wallet address now and then. Personally, I don't intend to keep a wallet for more than 1 use :D. Paranoid = sleep better (I read this right here on this Forum). By default, I'm not so paranoid. But here? Buying drugs? FUCK YEAH!
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1. Generate a new BTC address on SR to deposit to each time
2. Use the following service:
http://blockchain.info/wallet/send-anonymously
:)
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I did not know that Virmo actually meant renewing SR address.
I did not know that we can actually renew SR wallet address. In this case, what do we do with the funds left in that SR wallet? I suppose we send them to some other wallet?
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True, throwing your coins through a mixer does make them nearly untraceable. I say nearly as I suppose that with progression of technology and the right amount of time and means everything can be figured out eventually. But as long as you use certain normal precautions such as switching addresses and wallets regularly etc you have little to fear unless somebody really has a bone to pick with you. You have more to fear from bad packaging than your bitcoin but as long as you're careful neither has to be a problem. I think that only if you're laundering large sums of money regularly mixing your coins is truely useful. Given of course that you have a way of cashing the bitcoin without the large sums of money being suspicious. If you can't cash the coin without explaining where it came from then IMO you're going to be screwed one way or another no matter how untraceable your bitcoins are.
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I did not know that Virmo actually meant renewing SR address.
I did not know that we can actually renew SR wallet address. In this case, what do we do with the funds left in that SR wallet? I suppose we send them to some other wallet?
No, go to eh.. dunno sr is down. That where it sais how many BTC you have in SR. There you will also see your wallet address. Just press get new one. Your BTC's will stay in your SR account. How this works? Don;t know. I would like to know :)
@Sc0re: yes, I think this is also why BTC and tor is called pseudo-anonymous? Not exactly sure though.
I wonder... laundering money is illegal. But here in the netherlands, you don't really get penalties for using and having drugs. Perhaps confiscation of current possession and a fine. I really wonder what the law here is about using SR...
And do you really have to explain where your money goes? I think you do, especially when you make a lot of money. Tax companies get involved and stuff. Invasion of privacy if you ask me...
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A-ha! That's good to know. Thanks! :).
And one more thing: BitCoinFog PLUS do it yourself :D.
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Indeed that is why they are called pseudo-anonymous. It is true that in the Netherlands it's not completely illegal to have or use drugs, it's very much illegal to have them with the intent of selling them, actually doing so, or even being linked to people who do so. Same applies for laundering money. I agree that the tax companies should stay the hell away from our bank accounts but we can't make that happen I'm afraid so we'll just have to be criminals and launder our money. In the Netherlands it's quite easy not to be detected as long as you don't have huge amounts coming in at the same time (1000 or more starts to raise red flags), and by not having your money all in your bank account. There's so many businesses and so much dubious money that the system relies primarily on digital red flags to catch you. That is as long as you haven't raised some other red flag with some other part of the system (police, postal services etc).