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Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: ET23 on December 24, 2012, 09:54 am

Title: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: ET23 on December 24, 2012, 09:54 am
So everyone in the states has heard about this horrific tragedy and Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newton Connecticut. It is reported that 27 people were killed, 20 being children. Now, many people are urging the government to change its gun laws. Personally, I think this is the stupidest idea. After the shooting in Aurora Colorado happened in the movie theater, many theaters had cops present (especially in NYC). After the Elementary school shooting, cops have been sent to stay in many schools. This boggles my mind. Who cares if it was a movie theater, grocery store, school, amusement park etc. The problem is that one of our fellow citizens went out in public and unloaded a weapon. The type of location is irrelevant. Its a tragedy, but the way to stop public shootings is not by having cops present at every coffee shop because there was a mass shooting at another coffee shop. What are the chances that type of public place is a target again. There is not much we cn do to stop these terrible incidents. Guess what America, lifes not perfect. We are a really fucked up nation who lives under a even more fucked up regime. And disarming citizens only gives us less protection. Criminals will have guns no matter what, so as a citizen we should have the right to own a gun to protect ourselves and our families from these psychopaths. And you wanna talk about mass murders, the gvernments of the world are kings at this. And it all starts with disarming its citizens.

1911 – Turkey disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1915 – 1917 they murdered 1.5 million Armenians.
1929 – Russia disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1929 – 1953 they murdered 20 million Russians.
1935 – China disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1948 – 1952 they murdered 20 million Chinese.
1938 – Germany disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1939 – 1945 they murdered 16 million Jews.
1956 – Cambodia disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1975 – 1977 they murdered 1 million Educated people.
1964 – Guatamala disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1964 – 1981 they murdered 100,000 Mayan Indians.
1970 – Uganda disarmed it’s citizens, and between 1971 – 1979 they murdered 300,000 Christians.

Just a few examples to open your eyes on how disarming a civilization is very risky. And the US  government has purchased over 750 million hollow point rounds, which cannot be used overseas. Domestic use only, enough so theres atleast 2 bullets per civilian.

Our right to bear arms is in the constitution and should not be taken away. More tragedies and shootings will happen, its part of life. its the world that we live in. We cannot take away violence, but we can protect ourselves and our loved ones.
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: nuyt on December 24, 2012, 10:00 am
sound reasoning, through and through
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: 420blindman on December 24, 2012, 03:45 pm
I'm with you. And I think I saw somewhere that DHS had purchased 1.6 billion rounds total, with that coming to 5 rounds for every living human in the USA.
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: grdr on December 24, 2012, 05:08 pm
now why would they kill us citizens? unless prisoners because jail sentences are crazy and it's a waste of taxes to keep them alive in a "box" while they don't do anything for the country.
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: D1rtR0ad on December 24, 2012, 05:38 pm
now why would they kill us citizens? unless prisoners because jail sentences are crazy and it's a waste of taxes to keep them alive in a "box" while they don't do anything for the country.

 The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world (743 per 100,000 population). Keeping in mind In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges. We all know here in the states its not hard to catch a drug charge and go to prison. I suppose those of us who are liberated and happen to catch a charge would go first.
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: wetdog on December 24, 2012, 06:42 pm
I agree.  I saw a news report the other night and it stated "Many Americans are alarmed as the number of applications for concealed carry permits is on the rise, especially in light of the shootings that took place last week".  I was talking to my wife on the phone at the time and i started yelling at the TV.  These two things are not the SAME they are OPPOSITES!  The people that are taking classes, getting fingerprinted, and registering their guns are not the same people shooting massive amounts of people in public.
     I also saw a video clip a couple of weeks ago where a couple of thugs stormed into a coffee shop with guns out.  An old man walked up from the side and started blasting at them.  The two thugs ran like crazy.  There is no telling how different the outcome would have been if there wouldn't have been an armed man already there.  I'm not a big gun toting guy, but it has been my right my whole life and i don't intend on giving it up.  Crazy!
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: grdr on December 24, 2012, 07:26 pm
I'm not against guns but if someone wants to rob you i think it's not worth it to risk your life for money. You can always earn them back, but you can't get your life back or if bullet hits your spine and leaves you disabled you will regret for the rest of your life.
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: THUMBSuP. on December 24, 2012, 07:58 pm
I'm not against guns but if someone wants to rob you i think it's not worth it to risk your life for money. You can always earn them back, but you can't get your life back or if bullet hits your spine and leaves you disabled you will regret for the rest of your life.

that's the thing though..
you wish that scenario would play out like that..
but chances are the "robber" is going to shoot you, regardless..
whether you don't give it to him, you are giving it to him, or you did give it to him.
they're going to get trigger happy/nervous and shoot..
hell, most people robbing these days are kids anyways..
hell yah they're going to shoot you.

everyone needs a gun.. but no one needs a bullet.

/thumbs
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: heavysmoker on December 25, 2012, 01:08 am
Not a single moron has chirped up to talk about regulation, it makes me feel better about humanity.

I cant believe how many people are for goverment regulation of guns, especially here on a site that has sprung up because goverment has chosen to waste time and money attempting to regulae drugs. Governments suck at enforcing prohibition, Do people not see the simalarites?

The second amendment is not about target practice or hunting, its about having guns to protect yourself from your government.  The feds can try and ban anything they want, i already have my guns and im not giving them up.
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: Ben on December 26, 2012, 03:04 am
Disarming the people doesn't seem to be the solution.

I live in the netherlands, a country with strict gun control, where litterally only outlaws carry guns, apart for the odd legit hunter.

Preventing civilians from having guns does not stop people from killing each-other - they just resort to different means. Having a much lower number of guns present in the population does reduce gun violence by a great deal. But you should also look at what replaces firearms. If you look at 'in the heat of the moment' killings people result to different means, such as runnig eachother over with cars, clubbing heads in with pipes and what not.

If it comes to premeditated murder,  it only causes people to perform that by more insidious means. As a chemist i wouldn't even consider a gun as a mans to murder someone, having si many less detectable and more insidious options available.
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: avast on December 27, 2012, 03:07 am
When it comes to alcohol and drugs only a few feel they are awe-inspiring and eye-opening. Yet I don't think there is anyone in these forums that would fail to respect these powerful substances. As well it seems the lack of knowledge on the subject of gun use and control has caused weapons to be feared rather than honored. I am afraid for the future of the second amendment because of the striking similarities.
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: alicia on December 27, 2012, 10:12 am
When it comes to alcohol and drugs only a few feel they are awe-inspiring and eye-opening. Yet I don't think there is anyone in these forums that would fail to respect these powerful substances. As well it seems the lack of knowledge on the subject of gun use and control has caused weapons to be feared rather than honored. I am afraid for the future of the second amendment because of the striking similarities.

alcohol IS a drug, idk y u would type both in?

anyway just wanted to clear that misconception up :D

guns r awesome! everyone should own one (or five)
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: grdr on December 27, 2012, 06:09 pm
When it comes to alcohol and drugs only a few feel they are awe-inspiring and eye-opening. Yet I don't think there is anyone in these forums that would fail to respect these powerful substances. As well it seems the lack of knowledge on the subject of gun use and control has caused weapons to be feared rather than honored. I am afraid for the future of the second amendment because of the striking similarities.

alcohol IS a drug, idk y u would type both in?

anyway just wanted to clear that misconception up :D

guns r awesome! everyone should own one (or five)

not everyone, criminal background should be checked, also psychological health, and living conditions (so  people living in project housing could not get guns and commit crimes).
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: thedopestjunkie on December 27, 2012, 06:56 pm
Interesting points made by everyone. As someone who does not like guns, I still respect the second amendment. However, I do believe we need stricter guidelines for owning something such as an assault rifle. I know the arguments of both sides but there is something terribly wrong with how accessible some of these guns are. I agree that disarming citizens all together can be dangerous and is a bad idea. The problem is I dont think we can exactly keep track of every single person who is mentally ill and willing to commit such crimes, so there has to be some sort of way to make them less accessible.
I agree with Chris Rock, start charging a million dollars for each bullet, then a person will think twice before taking another persons life. Ah, if only it were that easy. Nice to see a good discussion about it.
The one thing that I dont understand is why gun owners always act like any day now the government is going to break down their door and seize their guns. I just dont see that happening here in America. I know they do seize weapons from time, but not if you have a license and are dealing legally, if at all.
In hindsight, the proliferation of destructive weapons in general is a very profitable business no doubt. I cringe when I think of the money we spend each year, trillions, on creating the newest most high tech death machines. Is the end game here not our eventual self destruction? I personally believe it is only a matter of time. And when it happens, I just hope there is time to sit back and enjoy the disaster. We humans had a pretty good run.
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: Red Rama on December 27, 2012, 08:06 pm
The Chris Rock joke is a bullet costing "$5000" dollars. I'm glad to see so many of my fellow citizens starting to arm themselves and not buy into all the media hype. I'm still waiting for them to explain how Adam Lanza shot all those kids with a Bushmaster AR-15 that was recovered from the trunk of the car, when his body was found inside the gym along with the two pistols. AR-15, M16, it doesn't matter which AR type you're more in favor of, unless that fucker has a grenade launcher on it or you have an RPG stashed somewhere it still won't be enough once Obama starts ramping up Drone strikes on the homefront the way he has overseas. If only all those "occupy" hipster morons had all been armed and outside the Whitehouse instead of clogging up NYC even more. I'm not too worried yet though, if any president in our nation's history ever has the military turn on him, my money's on Barry.
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: Barbijuana on December 27, 2012, 09:10 pm
 
Quote
now why would they kill us citizens? unless prisoners because jail sentences are crazy and it's a waste of taxes to keep them alive in a "box" while they don't do anything for the country.

Privatized prison systems use them as slave labor in manufacturing and land development while tax payers house them.

It's a very vicious business model, fucking brilliant, but vicious.
   
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: skhai on December 27, 2012, 11:47 pm
when they take all the guns and war materiel from the military and LE...then we can talk about a non violent gunless society.  background checks? mental health checks? You sheeple that would trust that more govt oversight and that govt is at all capable of deciding who's dangerous and not (mental health "experts" are part of the system, part of the problem) are laughable. They would more likely keep guns from political enemies...and criminals? All us pot smokers for example...
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: mmmolly44 on December 28, 2012, 12:28 am
Quote
The Chris Rock joke is a bullet costing "$5000" dollars. I'm glad to see so many of my fellow citizens starting to arm themselves and not buy into all the media hype. I'm still waiting for them to explain how Adam Lanza shot all those kids with a Bushmaster AR-15 that was recovered from the trunk of the car, when his body was found inside the gym along with the two pistols. AR-15, M16, it doesn't matter which AR type you're more in favor of, unless that fucker has a grenade launcher on it or you have an RPG stashed somewhere it still won't be enough once Obama starts ramping up Drone strikes on the homefront the way he has overseas. If only all those "occupy" hipster morons had all been armed and outside the Whitehouse instead of clogging up NYC even more. I'm not too worried yet though, if any president in our nation's history ever has the military turn on him, my money's on Barry.

The car was not Adam Lanza's or his mothers.  The car belonged to Christopher A Rodia.  Some career criminal who bought guns illegally, this is why the ATF and police raided a couple of houses where they were illegally manufactured and a gun shop in Newtown.  I do not know of the name of the man they caught running from the school to hide in the woods who was wearing camo pants and black shirt with knives on him claiming "I didn't do it" but it was probably him.  Adam Lanza's father is one of the kingpins of the LIBOR scandal, literally generating trillions of dollars out of nothing.  My theory is his ex wife (Adam Lanza's Mother) knew something about this and could implicate him and send him to prison for a long time. What was a simple hit turned out to be a huge tragedy because he hired an incompetent loser like Chris Rodia. (google his name I won't be explaining my theory, do some work for yourself)


There will be no disarming of the US citizens.  The citizens, and US Military will not allow it.  The Military will NOT do this because they know they won't have anyone left after 2 days of trying, they will fight our dirty government side by side with the general population.  They would also skull fuck any UN action trying to disarm us.  Disarming will never happen, and regulation won't stop a thing.  Guns are here to stay.
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: Red Rama on December 28, 2012, 12:57 am

There will be no disarming of the US citizens.  The citizens, and US Military will not allow it.  The Military will NOT do this because they know they won't have anyone left after 2 days of trying, they will fight our dirty government side by side with the general population.  They would also skull fuck any UN action trying to disarm us.  Disarming will never happen, and regulation won't stop a thing.  Guns are here to stay.

Exactly, +1, there have been like three or four different topics all on gun control recently and I've said the same thing in every one of them.
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: green grape on December 28, 2012, 01:29 am
once they take all your guns away you will see the military using unmanned drones just to watch over your own country, and you will be defenseless against any sort of uprising, just the way the government wants things,
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: Donkeydong on December 28, 2012, 01:48 am
Interesting points made by everyone. As someone who does not like guns, I still respect the second amendment. However, I do believe we need stricter guidelines for owning something such as an assault rifle. I know the arguments of both sides but there is something terribly wrong with how accessible some of these guns are. I agree that disarming citizens all together can be dangerous and is a bad idea. The problem is I dont think we can exactly keep track of every single person who is mentally ill and willing to commit such crimes, so there has to be some sort of way to make them less accessible.
I agree with Chris Rock, start charging a million dollars for each bullet, then a person will think twice before taking another persons life. Ah, if only it were that easy. Nice to see a good discussion about it.
The one thing that I dont understand is why gun owners always act like any day now the government is going to break down their door and seize their guns. I just dont see that happening here in America. I know they do seize weapons from time, but not if you have a license and are dealing legally, if at all.
In hindsight, the proliferation of destructive weapons in general is a very profitable business no doubt. I cringe when I think of the money we spend each year, trillions, on creating the newest most high tech death machines. Is the end game here not our eventual self destruction? I personally believe it is only a matter of time. And when it happens, I just hope there is time to sit back and enjoy the disaster. We humans had a pretty good run.

Well I respect you don't like guns but please respect that I do. Target "plinking" at the range is a hobby of mine and I would never think about hurting another human being unless under a life threatening situation.

Putting aside the collecting, target, and hunting aspects of guns we are back at the simple question ....do you support the founding fathers beliefs that the people of this country had the right to bear arms to deter tyrannical  government, repel invasion, suppress insurrection, self-defense, ect.?

The term Assault rifle is just plain stupid. It's about as dumb as those who want to ban "clips" (called magazines) that are larger than x amount of "bullets" (called cartridges ding dongs). An "Assault rifle" as known is just a semi-automatic rifle... period. Half of the Deer, Mouse, Elk, ect ect ect  hunting rifles used are semi automatic. I would guess 80% of the shotguns used today are semi automatic - Turkeys, Pheasant, Grouse, Partridge, ect ect ect. If you really want to kill people grab a semi-auto shotgun folks..... there is no missing and damage is much more severe so you won't need 30 small caliber cartridges. Most all of the pistols are semi-automatic these days as well. I laugh at these "leaders" who can't even get briefed properly on the terminology and it worries me that they know fk all about the subject. It's one thing if crazy housewife doesn't understand and wants some knee jerk feel good law about "Assault rifles" passed but I think our representatives are shat when they are not informed properly.

If you want to put energy into something worthwhile, help your state officials come up with ways to find the "nuts" with better mental health care ect ect ect. At least that may truly help lower the number of potentials unlike some silly feel good ban on X type of weapon while leaving the other types alone. The only way your solution works at all is a complete ban and then we know what your answer is the main question above. You have your right to your opinion but please make an informed decision.
Title: Re: Disarming US Citizens
Post by: Ben on December 28, 2012, 01:56 am
I suppose civilian operated drones aren't out of the question either, its just an escalation of a situation.

Living in gun controlled europe i admire the american citizens for defending their right to bear arms.

I think a gun is something very proportional to own. Obviously there are situations where one individual takes a gun a kills of dozens, there is no denying that as it has happened several times before and will happen again. Of course these incidents are dramatic every time they happen. With guns available the casualties are sometimes in the dozens, which may seem like a large amount of when it hits the news.

When no guns are available and some madman decides to kill a lot of people the outcome can be much worse. It could be a bombing, or even worse, a biological attack.

Perhaps this seems far fetched, but in reality in western europe is is far easier to legally obtain the materials required for a serious bomb attack and even the development of a chemical or biological attack than it is to obtain a single handgun. Gun control will prevent a number of deaths - not the shootings in the news, but small personal drama's where someone shoots another in a lovers quarrel or deal gone bad. In countries without widely available guns such situations are resolved more often by stabbing or clubbing that have a better chance of survival compared to gunshot.

People that intent on killing a large number of people on their way out will not be deterred by legislation in the first place, but may resort to much more destructive methods if guns are not available.

With that i'd say to american citizens: protect your right to bear arms. Europeans do not have this right any longer, yet outlaws do have plenty of guns. Obviously anyone owning a gun is an outlaw by definition here, but you know what i mean.