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Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: BarryBarron on January 17, 2013, 12:03 am

Title: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: BarryBarron on January 17, 2013, 12:03 am
As the question states.

In recent weeks France and nations from the African Union have sent military forces to intervene on behalf of the Malian government, allegedly against an radical islamist al-qaeda affiliate. UK and US forces are also assisting with logistical support.
Discuss.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: Ben on January 17, 2013, 02:21 am
Well, this is a situation that almost requires the words french and courageous to be mentioned in one sentence :)

France seems to be doing its former colony a huge service here, which i find commendable.

Involvement of my own country (netherlands) so far seems mostly irrelevant. We only grant some support infrastructure as is agreed upon between european countries. France has not requested any assistance on the battlefield from its NATO allies at this point. If it does come to that point, i suppose we should render assistance where feasible, perhaps in the form of providing AWACS aircraft, anti-missile systems to provide french-malinese bases and such.

After all, we have been protected due to the french and english nuclear capabilities so far as well. While i firmly believe holland should develop its own nuclear weapons program (since we have all the means required to do so), i feel we should back our nato partners if they request it. They have not done so in the Mali conflict, but its important to show cooperation in the nato framework in general, for example by stationing patriot missile defense systems in turkey in case syria tries something down there.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: lesseroftwoweevils on January 17, 2013, 03:05 am
I didn't really see an alternative except a government bullied by radical islamic extremists taking control of the area, so I think France's decision was commendable. I also think France's motives were innocent, as this was about ensuring stability in the region and nothing else.

Would I want the U.S. to become a part of the conflict? I don't know, is that even necessary at this point? Seems like France has presently maintained the peace.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: hands off black 7 on January 17, 2013, 09:49 am
I just read in the paper today that the extremists in control have BANNED MUSIC!
What the FUCK?
Now there's a REAL reason to get involved and bomb the shit out somebody.... Better than any recent "reasons" I've heard to go to war.
 >:(
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: Ben on January 22, 2013, 01:55 am
Banning music isn't that uncommon in extermist islam though, the taliban in the middle east ban it too.

I suppose this ban isn't that black and white though - it doesn't usually apply to playing instruments in live performances and such, but the goal is mostly to keep music from being played back on cd players and such. Who knows what bad ideas the population may get from listening to a couple of usb-copied western albums after all.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: italosvevo on January 22, 2013, 05:19 pm
I'm french, i read french newspapers but also sometimes foreign ones.

I just can't find a word about all the "media lies", about what you guys said.
My english is not good enough to explain quickly why all of this is bullshit.
A guy explains it very well, but in french - he's a independent belgian journalist who's not anymore accepted
on french tv because of the reality he speaks about wars (especially). He's Michel Collon (there's some subtitled videos on youtube, look at it, it's great - but not yet about Mali)

In spite of my english, i'll try quickly :
It's all about war propaganda.
First one is to hide interest.
There is Gold, Gas, Petrol and Uranium in Mali. Who extracts it ? Foreign multinational - Bouygues for example (which detains TF1 - the first channel of french TV). Work conditions are horrible.

Second one is to modify or hide History :
Each time, an african leader genuinely wanted to distribute the wealth of his country to the population, he got executed (exactly like in South America, you can read Howard Zinn's book, an american historian).
That's what happened in Mali just after the independence, Lumumba was murdered by Us, France and Belgium.
Then Modibo Keita was elected, he was a good guy, against colonial multinational (especially french ones).
France organized a "coup d'état" (putsch) and put in prison where he died and replaced him by Moussa Traoré, a bloody dictator - who stayed 23 years -  in the pocket of french business (but not only). And again and again...
France has NEVER protected Malians ! 

Third one is to claim to be a victim or to help them - that's not true. The actual interim president is a marionette as CEDAO is.
Population has manifested against France to be military involved.

Fourth is to demonize the opponents (i'm not defending islamists, our countries, in a way, created them or at least let them be).

And to finish, monopolize and prevent any public debate.

Sorry, don't have time to correct myself and i admit it's a bit short but fuckin true.

CHEERS




Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: impkin on January 22, 2013, 10:37 pm
There is Gold, Gas, Petrol and Uranium in Mali.

Good enough reason for 'murica to Get Involved if you ask me.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: Ben on January 23, 2013, 01:47 am
I suppose there are multiple ways to look at this.

So far it seems that france is coming to the aid of the government of its former colony, at their request. Fossil fuel interests probably do play a role in that, even if that involves no more than allowing production to continue without ceasing anything produced. The french intervention is not comparable in any way to the gulf war between america and irak.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: italosvevo on January 23, 2013, 02:39 pm
I suppose there are multiple ways to look at this.

So far it seems that france is coming to the aid of the government of its former colony, at their request. Fossil fuel interests probably do play a role in that, even if that involves no more than allowing production to continue without ceasing anything produced. The french intervention is not comparable in any way to the gulf war between america and irak.

That is totally NOT true.
As I said before, "The actual interim president is a marionette, Europe just put him on the throne. And he does not have the power (legally and legitimately) to call foreign military help. And few malian politics - internationally recognized - were against France to get involved.
Just get some true informations.. And don't believe we're happy to defend people, democracy, to kill the bad (so why not in QATAR??, LIBYA WAS LAIC, ROFL).
Population has manifested against France to be military involved.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: Ben on January 25, 2013, 02:35 am
First of all, the recognized government of Mali has welcomed the French aid. This is not comparable to a country like qatar that has never requested or accepted foreign aid in curtailing a problem - not that it even has one comparable to the situation in mali.

As far as what the population actually wants: if you want to obey that, the country should probably be split in half life sudan, with the northern part adopting islam, sharia and such, and the southern half continuing business as usual. This could be an option, though it may drive most of the countries to split into two halves over time. But even after splitting in half, its likely there will be territorial disputes between the islamic north and free south that will take both time and exchange of gunfire to resolve over a very long period of time.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: italosvevo on January 26, 2013, 04:17 pm
First of all, the recognized government of Mali has welcomed the French aid.

I said twice already that this government is not legitimate !!!  It's a temporary president, put on the throne by the NATO.
Aminata Dramane Traoré, on the contrary, is a international known personality of Malian politic, ex Ministre of Culture.
She REALLY wants to help her country and told, with many other people, that she does NOT France to come.

That's pretty simple right, don't even think you can read between the lines of your favorite newspaper, it only tells shit.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: BarryBarron on January 26, 2013, 10:30 pm
Well the votes are in, I'm quite surprised no one was in favour of intervention.

Thanks for your contributions, its good to get different perspectives.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: Ben on January 29, 2013, 01:32 am
The response is low because how the question was formulated though.

MY government should not take part in this war, as i live in the netherlands, and mali never asked for any help. France, on the other hand, has answered a call for help from its former colony, and decided to answer it. I doubt anyone in a country that has not been asked for help would suggest their military intervene in a conflict they have nothing to do with in the first place.

Meanwhile the french army seems to be making good headway in mali. The stereotype may be that the french will surrender when pointed at with a blunt stick, but in this case their technological superiority could very well end this conflict quite rapidly. After all, if your army consists of machine guns on the back of pickup trucks, you'd be very unpleasantly surprised to see such units destroyed by a mirage fighter jet that you can't even see or hear yet.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: italosvevo on January 29, 2013, 10:34 am
The response is low because how the question was formulated though.

MY government should not take part in this war, as i live in the netherlands, and mali never asked for any help. France, on the other hand, has answered a call for help from its former colony, and decided to answer it. I doubt anyone in a country that has not been asked for help would suggest their military intervene in a conflict they have nothing to do with in the first place.

Meanwhile the french army seems to be making good headway in mali. The stereotype may be that the french will surrender when pointed at with a blunt stick, but in this case their technological superiority could very well end this conflict quite rapidly. After all, if your army consists of machine guns on the back of pickup trucks, you'd be very unpleasantly surprised to see such units destroyed by a mirage fighter jet that you can't even see or hear yet.

hmm
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: BarryBarron on February 01, 2013, 05:48 pm
The response is low because how the question was formulated though.

MY government should not take part in this war, as i live in the netherlands, and mali never asked for any help. France, on the other hand, has answered a call for help from its former colony, and decided to answer it. I doubt anyone in a country that has not been asked for help would suggest their military intervene in a conflict they have nothing to do with in the first place.

Meanwhile the french army seems to be making good headway in mali. The stereotype may be that the french will surrender when pointed at with a blunt stick, but in this case their technological superiority could very well end this conflict quite rapidly. After all, if your army consists of machine guns on the back of pickup trucks, you'd be very unpleasantly surprised to see such units destroyed by a mirage fighter jet that you can't even see or hear yet.

Quote from: Some Dutch Newspaper
   Het kabinet stelt Nederlandse transportvliegtuigen beschikbaar om Frans legermaterieel naar Mali te brengen. Dat schrijven de ministers Hennis, Timmermans en Ploumen aan de Tweede Kamer.

Frankrijk had om die steun gevraagd. De vliegtuigen zullen voorlopig nog niet naar Mali zelf vliegen, maar naar de buurlanden. In Mali is het nog te gevaarlijk.

Het kabinet denkt dat de Nederlandse vliegtuigen al op korte termijn zullen worden ingezet. Er gaan verder geen Nederlandse militairen naar Mali, maar minister Ploumen denkt wel na over ontwikkelingshulp.
Noodhulp

Het kabinet benadrukte gisteren dat het de afgelopen tijd ruime ervaring heeft opgedaan in Mali. Na de militaire coup vorig jaar verbrak het kabinet de ontwikkelingsrelatie met de Malinese overheid. Maar samenwerking met organisaties ging wel door.

Minister Ploumen wil via de UNHCR noodhulp geven aan Mali. Dat geld moet worden gebruikt voor het opvangen van slachtoffers van het geweld. Verder trekt ze 1 miljoen euro uit voor de ziekenhuizen in het gebied.

Maybe you can translate this for me. My Dutch is a bit rusty.

tl;dr Dutch government makes transport aircraft available for use in France's intervention in Mali.
So The Netherlands is intervening, albeit modestly.

Other countries involved militarily include Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Spain, The UK and The USA.
Do you think the Dutch government is right to send a transport plane?
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: Ben on February 03, 2013, 02:50 am
As for the dutch involvement, our ally France requested some transport services for materials and troops, which our government provided as is very common within the european execution of NATO obligations. There are no dutch soldiers fighting in Mali, the only thing the Netherlands did was providing several large transport aircraft to the french to allow them to bring equipment and staff into the government controlled part of Mali.

Sharing all kinds of resources is common between European nations. Dutch patriot missile defense systems are also deployed in turkey to defend against any Syrian missile or air attack on southern turkey. Unlike america that has all its combat resources under one flag, in europe some systems are operated by a limited number of countries to control costs, but they are made available to all nato allies if requested.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: Caparino on February 06, 2013, 02:52 am
Let's look at the main event following up to France's intervention in Mali: Germany pulled all of their gold in both French and American reserves. Not even a week later, they started reporting "attacks from Mali militants kills blah blah blah". After enough propaganda to convince the sheeple was spread, France went in for that sweet Malian gold. There's really no other reason for intervention in any country other than resource gain. One self-evident fact to back that up: central Africa--i.e., Sudan, Somalia, etc-- has been seeing despotic militarism for decades now, and everyone's just looked the other way and are still doing so today. Sucks that you can't stop the machine with just a few gear going the other way :/
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: Ben on February 07, 2013, 02:18 am
There often is some economic benefit indeed - access to extract gold, oil, or whatever valuables from the country in question.

I'm not sure this is a bad thing however - Mali could very well choose to ask for military intervention from france in exchange for some prospecting contracts and claims. Ridding the country of islamic extremists is no small feat, and perhaps that should come at a price in the long run.

The situation isn't unique to mali/france however. Many european countries see their former colonies overrun by islamic terrorist forces, and this will result in claims for military assistance. Since these former colonies decided on being independent in the past, i suppose its not unfair that they now offer something in exchange for assistance by western firepower. Those fighter jets don't run on shells and mirrors, after all.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: Caparino on February 07, 2013, 03:26 am
So, by your reasoning, every type of oppression is cool except if it's Muslim right? Islamic terrorist forces my ass; the only people who will ask for military intervention are ones seeking power in Mali and will sell their country and their soul to foreign powers to do so. The C.I.A. is famous for toppling regimes by setting up puppets to win public opinion. Honestly, any intervention nowadays from any world superpower is just an excuse to rape a land of it's resources. Remember how we set up the Taliban? Then went and got rid of it? How do we know France isn't doing the same thing now? Actually, how can be stupid enough to not believe that they are, is the real question.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: 420blindman on February 08, 2013, 11:16 pm
So, by your reasoning, every type of oppression is cool except if it's Muslim right? Islamic terrorist forces my ass; the only people who will ask for military intervention are ones seeking power in Mali and will sell their country and their soul to foreign powers to do so. The C.I.A. is famous for toppling regimes by setting up puppets to win public opinion. Honestly, any intervention nowadays from any world superpower is just an excuse to rape a land of it's resources. Remember how we set up the Taliban? Then went and got rid of it? How do we know France isn't doing the same thing now? Actually, how can be stupid enough to not believe that they are, is the real question.

Yup, resources....all the rest is smoke and mirrors bullshit for those not awake.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: Ben on February 09, 2013, 01:47 am
There will always be conflicts of interest. Virtually all countries that have been colonized in the past rely on companies from the former occupying country to exploit their natural resources.

In a case like Mali the legitimate government simply requested military assistance, and that request was granted. This assistance came too late to preserve historical sights like those a timbuktu, but they prove to be effective otherwise.

As far as comparing previous colonization with current islamitic movements: I suppose the former colonists weren't actually -that- bad. Surely they took resources from the country by force at some point, but at least they did not really police thought, except for thea crusades of course.
Title: Re: Foreign intervention in Mali
Post by: aredhel on February 19, 2013, 04:55 pm
The Member of the Belgian Parliament Laurent Louis held an awesome speech on January 17th - I believe he got it all right. It's well worth watching the video on youtube, do search for yourself :)

Of course if you belong to those who value so-called "economic profit" above everything else, which is the Mammon of our present time, you won't like what he's saying.