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Discussion => Security => Topic started by: Garrincha on August 24, 2013, 03:49 pm

Title: Alternatives to TOR?
Post by: Garrincha on August 24, 2013, 03:49 pm
I've read that TOR is one of 3 large darkweb browsers, but I can't remember the names of the other 2. Could someone refresh my memory? And what do these alternatives offer that TOR doesn't? Do they have different "hidden services" to TOR?
Title: Re: Alternatives to TOR?
Post by: CiscoYankerStuck on August 24, 2013, 07:52 pm
You're probably thinking of I2P and Freenet. There are others too.

Google that shit!
Title: Re: Alternatives to TOR?
Post by: goblin on August 24, 2013, 08:54 pm
I2P and Freenet (and John Doe) offer a completely different sub-universe of the dark web than TOR. They are mutually exclusive. There are, of course, other drug sites in these networks.
Title: Re: Alternatives to TOR?
Post by: kmfkewm on August 25, 2013, 01:48 am
Are there drug sites on I2P or Freenet? I think the drug scene is pretty exclusive to Tor.
Title: Re: Alternatives to TOR?
Post by: ECC_ROT13 on August 25, 2013, 04:12 am
I haven't looked much at i2p at all.. how would you summarize its subculture?   Poked around a few eepsites, but never really got a feel for what the i2p userbase consisted of.

I've spent some time playing with Freenet lately.   Architecturally, it seems like some sort of P2P Usenet meets Tor.   It definitely has some strengths over Tor, but the I-want-it-now crowd probably doesn't have the patience for it.    They've done some neat stuff with FMS and Web of Trust, though.   Closest thing I've seen to adequately tackling the problem of identity in a community full of anonymous folks.
Title: Re: Alternatives to TOR?
Post by: Garrincha on August 30, 2013, 05:59 pm
So is there anything to rival SR/BMR/Atlantis on these networks?
Title: Re: Alternatives to TOR?
Post by: kmfkewm on August 30, 2013, 11:10 pm
So is there anything to rival SR/BMR/Atlantis on these networks?

I doubt it.

I haven't looked much at i2p at all.. how would you summarize its subculture?   Poked around a few eepsites, but never really got a feel for what the i2p userbase consisted of.

If Tor is academic then I2P is hobbyist. The Tor devs are very into research papers etc, the I2P devs are more into intuition. This is good and bad. Tor is slow to change because any tiny change needs to have a research paper written on it and simulations run first. I2P is really fast to change and add features, because if something sounds good and correct at face value, they will probably implement it. I think I2P culture of users consists largely of cryptoanarchists, where as Tor user culture is extremely diverse because of its popularity. The average I2P user probably knows significantly more about technical things than the average Tor user, but the average Tor developer probably knows significantly more about technical things than the average I2P developer.
Title: Re: Alternatives to TOR?
Post by: ECC_ROT13 on August 30, 2013, 11:48 pm
If Tor is academic then I2P is hobbyist. The Tor devs are very into research papers etc, the I2P devs are more into intuition. This is good and bad. Tor is slow to change because any tiny change needs to have a research paper written on it and simulations run first. I2P is really fast to change and add features, because if something sounds good and correct at face value, they will probably implement it. I think I2P culture of users consists largely of cryptoanarchists, where as Tor user culture is extremely diverse because of its popularity. The average I2P user probably knows significantly more about technical things than the average Tor user, but the average Tor developer probably knows significantly more about technical things than the average I2P developer.
Hey, great summary.  Thanks!   That's exactly what I was wondering.
Title: Re: Alternatives to TOR?
Post by: kmfkewm on August 31, 2013, 08:37 am
It is also worth pointing out that Tor sort of came from the government and is still largely funded by the government, and had the original intention of anonymizing government intelligence agents. Tor is still marketed largely toward police and military users, none of their "who uses Tor" examples include "People who struggle against the state", although clearly Tor is largely focused on helping Chinese people access the internet at this point in time. Also Tor developers are mostly quite libertarian indeed, but they don't market their software as for use by anarchists and libertarians. I2P came from anarchists and they advertise it as something that can be used by militants and others who struggle against the state. On the other hand, smart as some of the hobbyist cryptoanarchists are, my general impression is that a lot of them are self taught whereas several of the Tor developers actually have Ph.Ds. Tor is very tied to the university academic culture at this point, I2P is very tied to the cryptoanarchist culture. Personally I think that the academic people tend to know what they are doing more than the cryptoanarchist people. I mean, there can be overlap between these two groups, but I see a distinct group of academic researchers (libertarian as they often are) and a distinct group of cryptoanarchists (who tend to be anarchists first and cryptographers second).

You can also see a difference between them in the terminology that they use. Cryptoanarchist friends tend to call hacking around Tor to obtain an IP address a "side channel" attack, whereas people in the academic community would say "wtf, that is not a side channel attack, that is a proxy bypass attack, side channel attacks only apply to cryptosystems leaking keys via timing and power analysis etc". And a quick search finds several in the I2P community calling these side channel attacks, indeed even Whonix developer is calling them "side channel" attacks. That wouldn't fly in the Tor community, because they actually learned about the term "side channel attack" in one of their cryptography classes.

Cryptoanarchists -> "side channel attacks are attacks that go around a security system rather than directly breaking it"

Academic security community -> (from wikipedia) "In cryptography, a side channel attack is any attack based on information gained from the physical implementation of a cryptosystem, rather than brute force or theoretical weaknesses in the algorithms (compare cryptanalysis). For example, timing information, power consumption, electromagnetic leaks or even sound can provide an extra source of information which can be exploited to break the system."
Title: Re: Alternatives to TOR?
Post by: Garrincha on August 31, 2013, 06:30 pm
I downloaded I2P but couldn't figure out how it worked properly. Much less accessible than TOR. What about Freenet? What is its speciality/selling point?
Title: Re: Alternatives to TOR?
Post by: bitfool on August 31, 2013, 08:57 pm
Quote
although clearly Tor is largely focused on helping Chinese people access the internet at this point in time.

Tor is focused, as per pentagon orders, in helping the american nazi government spreading their influence in places that are less than subservient to the american nazi governmet.

Iran comes to mind as well. See, if Iran is cut off from the internet, then american nazis can't spy on iranians. So what can be better than a tool that allows american nazis to empower dissidents (that is potential allies of the american nazis).

Look! Tor developers are libertarians and there's a whole pack of flying pigs in the sky! Wait, no, those are B52s...

Title: Re: Alternatives to TOR?
Post by: valakki on August 31, 2013, 09:39 pm
Subbed
Title: Re: Alternatives to TOR?
Post by: tree on August 31, 2013, 10:07 pm
Are there drug sites on I2P or Freenet? I think the drug scene is pretty exclusive to Tor.

Goblin's selling stuff on freenet, that's why he would know ;D I've seen other people on I2P selling drugs, but it's never anything big.