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Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: The Scientist on February 25, 2013, 06:23 am

Title: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: The Scientist on February 25, 2013, 06:23 am
The LSD experience shows us once and for all that the mind contains higher powers than we ever dreamed of; that these powers can be scientifically catalogued and inventoried; and they can be released on a wider scale. The LSD revelation is that Consciousness is eternal; that it is one with the divine Cosmos; and that the purpose of life is the joyful discovery of our cosmic and divine nature. This is also the central truth common to all religions.

What we should be aiming for is a gradual osmosis of the LSD revelation,  particularly among the scientific community. If we can get scientists on our side, if we can map and inventory the higher powers of the mind using the accepted tools of scientific truth, without alarming the philistines and the narrow-minded with extraordinary claims, then we might have a chance to change the world...

And the way to accomplish this is to recruit as many philosophers, physicists, chemists, biologists, psychologists, anthropologists, etc., to the psychedelic point of view as humanly possible. And then "turn on" the Best and Brightest to the LSD perspective, under the guise of scientific research...

For as Aldous Huxley put it:

Quote
"The man who comes back through the Door in the Wall will never be quite the same as the man who went out.... He will be wiser but less cocksure, happier but less self-satisfied, humbler in acknowledging his  ignorance..."

He will also be open to a spiritual vision of reality.

The Elite always sets the tone of society. If we can turn on the elite, we can transform society for the better.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: blackend646 on February 25, 2013, 07:00 am
There is no question that they can change the world, the problem is getting mainstream society to believe it. With the current attitude the majority have on drugs, LSD is no different than cocaine or heroin. The idea that a recreational drug can actually be used for self improvement sounds ridiculous to the average person. Anyone who says otherwise is dismissed as "rationalizing their drug use". It's really horribly frustrating.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: livestr0ng on February 25, 2013, 07:31 am
I don't agree exactly with OP but I believe they psychedelics could change the world. However, I don't believe they will because people are too ignorant and/or brainwashed.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: The Scientist on February 25, 2013, 08:22 am
There is no question that they can change the world, the problem is getting mainstream society to believe it.
In modern society, information that trickles down from the intellectual elite becomes almost universal over the course of a few generations.  So the answer is to "turn on" the intellegentsia to psychedelic drugs, give them this experience--the psychedelic revelation will filter down from the top.

Aldous Huxley spent the last few years of his life turning on the world's philosophers, economists, politicians, and artists, basically by giving them LSD.  I believe this is the correct approach.

But then Timothy Leary got in on the act. His rather reckless, and one might even say democratic, stance toward the use of psychedelics only resulted in the prohibition of these substances.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: Gengar17 on February 25, 2013, 05:37 pm
I think it is too powerful for governments to want to control or even legalize. The idea of a substance changing future generations scares the Elite, so they laugh off the spiritual and lifechanging effects just like other substances. Can psychedelics change the world? Absolutely. Will they change the world? People yes, world no; because there will always be those in control fear this radical change and have the media to back their fear of change.

Psychedelics are powerful, powerful substances that draw most users to the same focal perspectives. I can only begin to imagine a world where the goals of living were the understanding and knowledge of reality.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: DMTisinME on February 25, 2013, 05:39 pm
Psychedelics can't change the world. Psychedelics inspire PEOPLE to change the world.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: wavelength on February 28, 2013, 02:43 am
Psychedelics can't change the world. Psychedelics inspire PEOPLE to change the world.

i was about to say, many people have legit psychedelic experiences and never learn anything from them... you have to have the mindset from the start, in a way.   :P
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: The Scientist on February 28, 2013, 03:45 am
Psychedelics can't change the world. Psychedelics inspire PEOPLE to change the world.

i was about to say, many people have legit psychedelic experiences and never learn anything from them... you have to have the mindset from the start, in a way.   :P
that is true. but bear in mind: 95% of people who take psychedelics don't take enough to experience ego death. The standard dosage of LSD since the 1970s has been only 30-70 micograms, which is usually only enough to experience aesthetic phenomena, not usually enough to have a life-changing spiritual experience.

If the standard dosage were, say, 250 micograms, as it was in the 1960s, I bet that 90% of LSD users would have deep spiritual experiences.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: wavelength on February 28, 2013, 03:51 am
Psychedelics can't change the world. Psychedelics inspire PEOPLE to change the world.

i was about to say, many people have legit psychedelic experiences and never learn anything from them... you have to have the mindset from the start, in a way.   :P
that is true. but bear in mind: 95% of people who take psychedelics don't take enough to experience ego death. The standard dosage of LSD since the 1970s has been only 30-70 micograms, which is usually only enough to experience aesthetic phenomena, not usually enough to have a life-changing spiritual experience.

If the standard dosage were, say, 250 micograms, as it was in the 1960s, I bet that 90% of LSD users would have deep spiritual experiences.

i agree, but at true ego death you do things that could be considered "crazy".  maybe its  because the ego is usually there to help you make sense of things in a way...

you know thats another thing, people have always been impressed by my ability to keep my shit together while im tripping.
 i guess they never figured out how to let go?  ::)
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: DMTisinME on February 28, 2013, 04:25 pm
The standard dosage of LSD since the 1970s has been only 30-70 micograms,

30-70ug = a waste of time. I take 250ug minimum, unless it's just a low dose for purposes other than tripping, such as improving focus during an artistic project of any sorts. If it's a very public trip I go lower, but never below 200 or 250ug. With psychedelics I only regret taking too little, never too much.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: wretched on February 28, 2013, 04:47 pm
Are you guys talking about "weaponizing" LSD for distribution to the masses? I think that might be a bad idea.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: DMTisinME on February 28, 2013, 04:55 pm
Psychedelics can't change the world. Psychedelics inspire PEOPLE to change the world.

i was about to say, many people have legit psychedelic experiences and never learn anything from them... you have to have the mindset from the start, in a way.   :P
that is true. but bear in mind: 95% of people who take psychedelics don't take enough to experience ego death. The standard dosage of LSD since the 1970s has been only 30-70 micograms, which is usually only enough to experience aesthetic phenomena, not usually enough to have a life-changing spiritual experience.

If the standard dosage were, say, 250 micograms, as it was in the 1960s, I bet that 90% of LSD users would have deep spiritual experiences.

i agree, but at true ego death you do things that could be considered "crazy".  maybe its  because the ego is usually there to help you make sense of things in a way...

you know thats another thing, people have always been impressed by my ability to keep my shit together while im tripping.
 i guess they never figured out how to let go?  ::)

All you need from psychedelics is to realize that you are not entitled to anything, you are not superior to anyone else, you are worth what you make yourself worth, and each man's opinion only matters to themselves and those who agree. You realize that your ego is evil and it's desires are limitless, and you realize that succumbing to your ego will never bring you true, transcendental happiness. All of this can be realized without an ego death. It only requires ego suppression. An ego death is when you are completely one with the universe because you're actual identity is temporarily gone and everything becomes one. This is important from a philosophical standpoint, but does not actually help "change the world," only perhaps your perspective of it.

"people have always been impressed by my ability to keep my shit together while im tripping."

Same here man. I'll literally be on 4x the dose of other people im with on occasion and they're having trouble keeping it together and I'm having a fucking blast. You just have to be understanding and respectful, being impatient will only make it worse for them. Unlike alcohol psychedelics should never be a drinking game. Everyone has their level of comfort with their distortion of reality and themselves - mine is just very high. If yours isn't, just dose where your comfortable - no problem, no judgement -- cause if we did that, what the hell would we have just learned?
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: DMTisinME on February 28, 2013, 05:00 pm
Are you guys talking about "weaponizing" LSD for distribution to the masses? I think that might be a bad idea.

How can you non-violently "weaponize" something? The removal of ignorance, greed, and prejudice is what we are talking about and the increase of understanding.

LSD = Love. I don't think weaponizing love could ever be a bad thing.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: ∞aliaseses∞ on February 28, 2013, 05:15 pm
They already changed the world massively if one tends to go with Terence McKenna and his worth reading 'Food of the Gods' ... one idea is that the consumption of psilocybine mushrooms evoked an important alteration of the consciousness which made apes to men to put it simply.
That Leary and his doing changed the world too is not a question ...

... the question is: what changes are awaiting us to fulfill them and what will it need this time (which substance e.g.) if it needs anything at all but the human mind \o/
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: wavelength on February 28, 2013, 05:19 pm
Psychedelics can't change the world. Psychedelics inspire PEOPLE to change the world.

i was about to say, many people have legit psychedelic experiences and never learn anything from them... you have to have the mindset from the start, in a way.   :P
that is true. but bear in mind: 95% of people who take psychedelics don't take enough to experience ego death. The standard dosage of LSD since the 1970s has been only 30-70 micograms, which is usually only enough to experience aesthetic phenomena, not usually enough to have a life-changing spiritual experience.

If the standard dosage were, say, 250 micograms, as it was in the 1960s, I bet that 90% of LSD users would have deep spiritual experiences.

i agree, but at true ego death you do things that could be considered "crazy".  maybe its  because the ego is usually there to help you make sense of things in a way...

you know thats another thing, people have always been impressed by my ability to keep my shit together while im tripping.
 i guess they never figured out how to let go?  ::)

All you need from psychedelics is to realize that you are not entitled to anything, you are not superior to anyone else, you are worth what you make yourself worth, and each man's opinion only matters to themselves and those who agree. You realize that your ego is evil and it's desires are limitless, and you realize that succumbing to your ego will never bring you true, transcendental happiness. All of this can be realized without an ego death. It only requires ego suppression. An ego death is when you are completely one with the universe because you're actual identity is temporarily gone and everything becomes one. This is important from a philosophical standpoint, but does not actually help "change the world," only perhaps your perspective of it.

"people have always been impressed by my ability to keep my shit together while im tripping."

Same here man. I'll literally be on 4x the dose of other people im with on occasion and they're having trouble keeping it together and I'm having a fucking blast. You just have to be understanding and respectful, being impatient will only make it worse for them. Unlike alcohol psychedelics should never be a drinking game. Everyone has their level of comfort with their distortion of reality and themselves - mine is just very high. If yours isn't, just dose where your comfortable - no problem, no judgement -- cause if we did that, what the hell would we have just learned?

yeah i totally get what you are saying but most people that come into the lsd experience dont know what the fuck is about to happen. and they arent going to know how to surpress their ego.

and no it shouldnt be anything like a competition, but i also dont think people should "fuck around" with psychedelics.

they should take enough to kill their ego, and be reborn.

 honestly my most true ego deaths have been on mushrooms.(i can always keep it cool on lsd )
on one occasion i ate 5 grams and went to sleep, woke up and my buddy had a shit ton of people over. i had no concept of self at this point so my consciousness was integrating into other people. i felt as though i was controlling everyone move. i was the "thought" that was sending the signal to their legs to glide across the room, i was the thought that created the words that were coming out of their mouths. i had become one with the collective unconscious.

on my FIRST  5 gram experience i got stuck in a thought loop.
and the thought loop should give you an idea of what that was like lol.

"its a misunderstanding of a misunderstanding, become everything"

i said that shit so many times. too many times, i think i freaked out the people around me xD

you know, ego death is serious when its done right.

i DO think psychedelics could change the world.

but i think it would have to be done in a spiritual manner.

with large amounts of people tripping together (even though im against that) and some sort of spiritual guide there.
to keep everyone calm and remind them to release the tension in their body.

and you know, that spiritual guide should drop some like, "mental" seeds to plant basically.

just give short little insights into the connection of everything, things like that.

but i think spirituality in general can change the world if everyone invested time in it.

my meditation i do some mornings makes me more conscious of my ego than any drug can.
because one of the things i  ask myself is, "how have i been treating people lately"

when you have to sit down and face your behavior towards others on a (nearly) day to day basis, its harder to be a bad person than a good person xD (cant hide from your behavior)






Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: DMTisinME on February 28, 2013, 06:59 pm
yeah i totally get what you are saying but most people that come into the lsd experience dont know what the fuck is about to happen. and they arent going to know how to surpress their ego.

This is true, and I'm willing to bet that its true for people with a lot of experience with mind-bending substances that you are just in such awe & wonder your first time, that very few realizations are made. It takes time. I think that it's true that people can get "better" at tripping, as in they learn to take more from the experience and shape their experience to how they want it as time goes on.

honestly my most true ego deaths have been on mushrooms.(i can always keep it cool on lsd )


Again, very true. I don't know if I've experienced a full ego death on acid going all the way past 1mg.


i DO think psychedelics could change the world.

but i think it would have to be done in a spiritual manner.

with large amounts of people tripping together (even though im against that) and some sort of spiritual guide there.

to keep everyone calm and remind them to release the tension in their body.

and you know, that spiritual guide should drop some like, "mental" seeds to plant basically.

just give short little insights into the connection of everything, things like that.

I completely agree. My dream job would be a psychedelic guide in a world with legal psychedelics. Helping people find who they are and how they fit in, and empower them to make a difference, live life on their own  terms, not society's, etc.

but i think spirituality in general can change the world if everyone invested time in it.

my meditation i do some mornings makes me more conscious of my ego than any drug can.
because one of the things i  ask myself is, "how have i been treating people lately"

when you have to sit down and face your behavior towards others on a (nearly) day to day basis, its harder to be a bad person than a good person xD (cant hide from your behavior)

Very good point. I always say: if your a bad person LSD, mushrooms, and peyote will tear you up and rip you apart, and if your a good person, they will show you the most unconditional love, while still improving who you are. They really expose your flaws in every way. If you want to remain willfully ignorant of them, do not take psychedelics. But I really would like to think that all people would, or at least should, want to improve the way they act alone, interact with others, and gain a ferocious drive to refine their skill set.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: wavelength on February 28, 2013, 07:12 pm
Quote
I completely agree. My dream job would be a psychedelic guide in a world with legal psychedelics. Helping people find who they are and how they fit in, and empower them to make a difference, live life on their own  terms, not society's, etc.

gave me instant chills to read this....

the world would be such a beautiful place.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: rambaski on February 28, 2013, 10:37 pm
Psychedelics quite obviously changed YOUR world, but ffs they cannot change the 'world' as you so loosely define it. Jesus f'k christ...
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: wavelength on February 28, 2013, 10:51 pm
Psychedelics quite obviously changed YOUR world, but ffs they cannot change the 'world' as you so loosely define it. Jesus f'k christ...

the theory is to slowly get people drawn into psychedelics/spirituality over time, and make sure the experience gets integrated right.

it could work.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: moonflower on February 28, 2013, 10:57 pm
Psychedelics quite obviously changed YOUR world, but ffs they cannot change the 'world' as you so loosely define it. Jesus f'k christ...
they can if enough people take them... ;)
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: rambaski on February 28, 2013, 11:11 pm
Imagine? There's over 7 billion people in this world and they all drop at the same time. Putting aside the complete impracticality and minus 12 hours or so...

On principle, not sure I'd wanna miss that.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: jpinkman on March 01, 2013, 12:48 am
Very good point. I always say: if your a bad person LSD, mushrooms, and peyote will tear you up and rip you apart, and if your a good person, they will show you the most unconditional love, while still improving who you are. They really expose your flaws in every way. If you want to remain willfully ignorant of them, do not take psychedelics. But I really would like to think that all people would, or at least should, want to improve the way they act alone, interact with others, and gain a ferocious drive to refine their skill set.

I think this is a strong argument as to why not everyone should be doing them. Not everyone has the mindset to handle it. It can also be destructive and cause people to blow a fuse.

The first 20-30 times I dosed were fantastic. I had generally positive experiences. But I got to a point where I started going batshit insane, and every time I tried after that I would reach the same place. So for the sake of my sanity, I chose to wash my hands of it altogether. This was all when I was young and malleable too, like late teens to early 20's. So it's not like there were a whole lot of inner demons for me to be wrestling with that age and experience can bring.

I decided that while I'm alive I enjoy the certainties that my ego provides. Even if it's all ultimately an illusion, I'm still here and exist in the empirical world. IME, there are good reasons for having an ego.
:)
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: DMTisinME on March 01, 2013, 01:41 am
But I got to a point where I started going batshit insane, and every time I tried after that I would reach the same place. So for the sake of my sanity, I chose to wash my hands of it altogether.

Can you go into specifics as to what "batshit insane" was? Did you think it would permanent or something similar? I'm just trying to understand this, because when I take LSD, I feel almost more sane  than I am sober. And when I take mushrooms I can sometimes be reduced to a "puddle" of myself but I never feel as if I'm going insane. I just know it's a drug and that it's temporary and whatnot. Mindset is ultra-important as well. And usually people feel insane the first couple times and not the more they take.

I decided that while I'm alive I enjoy the certainties that my ego provides. Even if it's all ultimately an illusion, I'm still here and exist in the empirical world. IME, there are good reasons for having an ego.
:)

The reasons for having an ego are to navigate the world from a first-person perception. Because of this I believe you are reduced to a single perspective: yours. This was helpful to us in the wild when survival was in actually in play and we essentially had no morality. Now that we have evolved past the "it's me or you" attitude, I feel that we need to enhance our moral values by understanding the perceptions and perspectives of our brethren, i.e. reducing the ego a bit. Also, the reduction of the ego can be done to the point of "ego death" without psychedelics -- ego death is the life goal of a Buddhist monk. Meditation could be seen as "sober tripping." In my opinion, the ego is a primal, animalistic part of us that reduces our potential to work together and progress -- it is an abyss of greed and desire, the root of over-consumption and self-entitlement.

That said, it is an absolutely necessary piece of us that holds our identity together. It should exist, it should just never control you. If you can conquer your ego, you have the ultimate willpower.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: jpinkman on March 01, 2013, 02:39 am
But I got to a point where I started going batshit insane, and every time I tried after that I would reach the same place. So for the sake of my sanity, I chose to wash my hands of it altogether.

Can you go into specifics as to what "batshit insane" was? Did you think it would permanent or something similar? I'm just trying to understand this, because when I take LSD, I feel almost more sane  than I am sober. And when I take mushrooms I can sometimes be reduced to a "puddle" of myself but I never feel as if I'm going insane. I just know it's a drug and that it's temporary and whatnot. Mindset is ultra-important as well. And usually people feel insane the first couple times and not the more they take.

I think the problems started when I began trying to up my dose from 100-200 mics to 300-400. Just overwhelming horror and paranoia in general. Also getting certain thoughts stuck in my head that would take on a life of its own. Can't remember precisely what they were anymore, just remember getting stuck in these fucked up thought loops that weren't in the slightest bit comforting at all. It wasn't quite "I am an orange" then thinking and believing I was, but something pretty similar and pretty disconcerting. Like thinking really neurotic and grotesque thoughts of what "I" was and was capable of which I don't believe at all were healthy or desirable things to think about or obsess upon.

Prior to that I had some very beautiful and mind blowing experiences. Like auditory hallucinations where I heard the most gorgeous music that if I had just the tenacity to record would be a symphony. But for me it just wasn't worth the risk anymore of going to that negative place that was just too horrific for words to really do it any justice. Actually a lot of people that I've spoken to that no longer touch psychedelics after having a bad trip or trips seem to be of this same reasoning even if the nature of their bad trips were entirely different.

 
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: wavelength on March 01, 2013, 11:08 am
i definitely see where you are coming from man.
maynard from tool says that you should "get the message, and hang up the phone"

basically learn something from psychedelics then leave them alone. and lsd has always been a tricky substance in my opinion. tim leary was a good example of that (even though he took too much)

either way the ego is a little bit important. it helps communication go smoothly, even though it stops a lot of thoughts from being said, which is why i dont like the ego.

the ego is the source of separation between men in a way haha.

without it all-together, the world would be a  better place.

we would work together as one organism.  ::)
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: DMTisinME on March 01, 2013, 05:30 pm
can psychedelics change the world?

no, people dont get the same effect from them as hippys and giggling stoners (a type of stoner commonly found in basements and attics).

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Hippies and giggling stoners are people too... I think.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: imm on March 01, 2013, 06:23 pm
Regarding the question if psychedelics can change the world I might have to say that psychedelics changed my life and if something can change my life it can change the lifes of others too and further if something can change a small part it can change the whole thing as well. So from my point of view the answer is yes!

Psychedelics not only can change the world they do already change the world, since they are used by mankind. Maybe the use of psychedelics can be seen as something that distinguished man from animal...
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: DMTisinME on March 01, 2013, 07:00 pm
can psychedelics change the world?

no, people dont get the same effect from them as hippys and giggling stoners (a type of stoner commonly found in basements and attics).

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Hippies and giggling stoners are people too... I think.

Oh, ok. I was just confused of who you were referring to when you said "people."
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: ProudCannabian on March 19, 2013, 02:09 pm
The 60's was what happens when a large amount of the population experiments with Psychs.
An explosion of music, art, film, literature and other amazing ideas.
I think if it hadn't happened at that time the Vietnam war would have been worse, and gone on longer.
Psychedelics have already changed the world, and will continue to do so.
It's thanks to psychedelics we're even playing with DNA and are able to replicate it in quantity.
Who knows what the future will hold, but it is certain that we won't stop using drugs to evolve our minds.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: Sensei on March 19, 2013, 02:31 pm
The 60's was what happens when a large amount of the population experiments with Psychs.
An explosion of music, art, film, literature and other amazing ideas.
I think if it hadn't happened at that time the Vietnam war would have been worse, and gone on longer.
Psychedelics have already changed the world, and will continue to do so.
It's thanks to psychedelics we're even playing with DNA and are able to replicate it in quantity.
Who knows what the future will hold, but it is certain that we won't stop using drugs to evolve our minds.

You know that's absolutely true and I never even thought about it like that. Sometimes it saddens me that I wasn't around for those times, I hope that before I die there will be another movement like in the 60's, especially within the community of artists of all sorts that would be awesome.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: goblin on March 19, 2013, 07:02 pm
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but they didn't change Charlie Manson.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: Iconoclastic on March 21, 2013, 08:21 am
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but they didn't change Charlie Manson.
Change doesn't have to be for the good.  Don't know much about Manson, but when did acid enter the equation and what was the before and after (other than the murders)?

Everything we do changes us.  So psychedelics and the incredible experiences they can without question change the world.  However, as DMTisInMe noted, they can tear some people up inside. 
"Bad people" is far too biased a term for my liking, but given the effect that set and setting have on every trip, a negative/unwillling mindset could potentially turn a trip into a damaging experience.

And as ProudCannabian points out, they have changed the world.  Francis Crick envisioned DNA while tripping.  Although, if I remember correctly, another team made the discovery almost simultaneously without mentioning LSD as a catalyst.  At the very least it made it so that I know the names Watson & Crick but can't remember the other dudes'.  Another famous example is Steve Jobs saying something along the lines of "taking LSD was the second best decision of my life."  Steve Jobs undoubtedly changed the world.  Consequently, I'd wager that AT LEAST each of his top 3 decisions contributed to this change in a significant way (hopefully for the better).  And I would be very surprised if Benoit Mandlebrot, founding father of fractals, hasn't tripped a time or two in his life.

However, to expect or even hope for a utopian society to form around the use of psychedelics (or ANYTHING, really) puts the community on dangerous ground.  When that ideal becomes a goal, I think it becomes infinitely easier to justify vice, "shortcuts", or what have you with Machiavellian reasoning.  If you're the good guy and you know what's right, what's a corpse or two on the road to world peace? 

I may be taking the scope of this question too far, but I just think it's important that we try to be as careful as possible when stating even potential benefits of substances such as LSD.   I think the only way it could realistically enter society is medicinally, following the example of marijuana in the US.  Coming at it from the spiritual side of things allows outsiders to dismiss the legalization movement as a cult, hippie bullshit.  We need to fund or at least allow research into demonstrable benefits.  But with acid's potency and the resulting difficulty of controlling its distribution, there will have to be much more significant benefits than help with addiction or other mental disorders.  It's a catch 22; the kind of benefit it would take to get the government consider regulating such a potent substance would have to be so grand as to be unbelievable, and likely in opposition to the politicians' personal agenda. 

Other countries may have more luck I suppose.  Have there been any interesting studies of psychedelics in Portugal since their decriminalization of drugs?  Thanks something to look into.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: jpinkman on March 21, 2013, 03:55 pm
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but they didn't change Charlie Manson.
Change doesn't have to be for the good.  Don't know much about Manson, but when did acid enter the equation and what was the before and after (other than the murders)?

It entered the equation about the same time it did for the rest of the hippie mass movement during the sixties, during the Summer of Love, so summer of '67.

But more important than that is the effect it had on his followers since, after all, Manson was never found guilty of committing any murders himself. It's the kids that became so warped from the acid they took that came to believe he was Christ incarnate that committed the murders on his command. If you watch the documentary Helter Skelter you can see firsthand how deluded they became as some of them speak of watching Charlie firsthand perform miracles and magic before their very eyes.

And these weren't the kind of kids who came from broken homes all "torn up inside" as you might expect. These were kids from decent middle to upper class homes and good families who had All-American happy upbringings. They just happened to meet the wrong guy during the sixties amidst the counterculture movement when the widely practiced 'in' thing of the youth of that era was to seek spirituality through psychedelic experimentation.

Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: Yoshitoshi on March 24, 2013, 09:46 pm
Unfortunately, several paradoxes come to mind with the noble intentions of the OP.

As a race, we have a poor track record when it comes to organized "spiritual" movements.

The 1% essentially rise to the top pretty quickly and use it as a powerbase to start turf wars with the other movements.

Virtually all mainstream religions have followed this trajectory, irrespective of how pure and conscientious their founders' principles.

So to sum up, if psychedelics ever achieved mainstream acceptance, most likely it would be the TV evangelists selling them at a vast mark up, with DVD's full of rants, to watch while you tripped {shudder}.

At the same time, I think it's deeply irresponsible that proper research is not being carried out into the use of psychedelics for e.g. PTSD in veterans. Anecdotal evidence suggests this could be a profoundly effective avenue of treatment, but big pharma don't want to know (no patent for LSD!)

I also think that, somehow, psychedelics can give the layman a chance to understand the world in quantum terms. Matter as waves, uncertainty, and synchronicity all seem to be perceptible in certain altered states. I don't know enough about this myself, but I'd be curious to see what an expert made of that aspect of the experience.

Personally, I feel the outlook is pretty grim. The energy which powered mass consciousness in the 60's is being shrink-wrapped, corporatized and anaesthetized in one big virtual shopping mall. Opportunities for collective organisation are few, and increasingly subject to "anti-terror" legislation, using the enhanced surveillance techniques now available.

On the other hand, I suppose they didn't have SR back then either  ;)
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: Green Camel on March 25, 2013, 03:43 am
I think it's a question of balance.

Any insight you get on LSD or any other psychedelic drug is only one piece of the puzzle. You can't suggest you've solved the whole puzzle by merely taking the drug. It's ridiculous.

Psychedelics may well contribute to changing the world for better but in this case, they will be only one of the countless factors.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: ConsciousEvolution on March 25, 2013, 11:42 am
I would be inclined to think that the powers that be are fully aware of the psychological effects of LSD on individuals and the community as a whole. The gov. has spent millions of dollars on psychic soldiers and the LSD phenomenon. Here is where progress is halted; if our society was to integrate the uses of mind expansive drugs we would all be creatures of conscious. All the frivolous power hungry actions of the worlds' governments would be plain to see, and there would no longer be nations of complacent consumers. No more worker bees to chop the wood and carry the water. They need an upper echelon to control the masses whom are largely happy with their hum drum lives. I can't stress how frequently i feel that I'm adrift in a sea of talking apes. Why would any government want a nation of intellectuals? If people realized that their individual life stretched beyond death, then the purpose of human life itself shifts from the mundane day to day to the score of eons.  To start planning for the next 1,000 years of our life instead of the next 50 is a huge transition. Why would those in charge want to relinquish unlimited power of decision making and unlimited monetary control?

LSD and other tools to open the doors of perception are extremely taboo at this current stage in human existence. During the 60's and 70's the scientific community was in a flurry about the LSD phenomenon and the resulting effects on the human mind. They were calling it a wonder-drug, and the future of human evolution. Nowadays, if you tell people the future of our society is a mind altering substance they immediately discount the possibility. Why? Because we have been bred as a society to point the finger at those who choose to alter their consciousness. The zeitgeist of the Americans is possibly the most influenced by the anti-drug mind-state. All that being said, the value of Silk Road is that people are bucking against the current taboos and taking their rights into their own hands. The people know whats right and wrong apart from what a massive government tells them. I believe it is the human right, no the human responsibility to alter consciousness and experiment with what could be! I say dream on. Make reality as you see fit.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: Yoshitoshi on March 25, 2013, 12:55 pm
I would be inclined to think that the powers that be are fully aware of the psychological effects of LSD on individuals and the community as a whole.

Sadly, you're probably right. But that begs the question how the notion of patriotism can even exist within a regime (let alone be so wildly and uncritically popular) if the agent responsible for the damage refuses to sanction any meaningful treatment for that same damage.

The suits on the news are happy to trot out glib assurances "We are 110% committed to doing the very best by our troops" when all they actually mean is that they'll chuck them a few scripts for the latest SSRI's from whichever pharma company makes up the biggest chunk of their stock portfolio. If they subsequently take their own life, and sometimes the lives of others too, too bad: "we tried our best, but clearly he didn't respond to treatment."

Once, they might have been held to account over such contradictions. But the way language has been subverted now, and routinely goes unchallenged and unexamined, even by political "opponents" (also a spent concept), leaves us all trapped in a bizarre hypocritical bubble that is far more terrifying than any psychedelic experience I have ever encountered.

Getting critical mass on the Road seems to be about as much as we can do.

I fully believe my psychedelic proclivities are just as fundamental to me and deserving of acceptance as e.g. sexuality is for LGBT people.

As a society, we will become impoverished if we do not respect the rights of those who wish to see beyond the doors, and report back, the better to explain and improve our collective predicament.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: echo_ on March 25, 2013, 11:22 pm
Can psychedelics change the world?

They already have.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: ConsciousEvolution on March 26, 2013, 01:32 am
I would be inclined to think that the powers that be are fully aware of the psychological effects of LSD on individuals and the community as a whole.

Sadly, you're probably right. But that begs the question how the notion of patriotism can even exist within a regime (let alone be so wildly and uncritically popular) if the agent responsible for the damage refuses to sanction any meaningful treatment for that same damage.



How can patriotism exist you say?? Easily. Ignorance. Americans are indoctrinated from a young age to believe America is the best country, the most socially advanced country, and the most freeeeee country. Of course this opinion is formed without ever traveling to a foreign country or actually doing any research to back such claims. Also it's my opinion that people would rather stick to the socially accepted beliefs rather than become aware of some truths that can be uncomfortable. I honestly wish i could trust in the government we give unquestionable power and authority to, but the reality is they are supposed to have that power with the purpose of protecting us and our lands, also they are expected to make the hard calls that most people lack the fortitude to. This power and trust we give them to make these decisions is instead used to financially infiltrate less developed countries, perpetually incarcerate its own citizens, and further the industrial complexes of our military. The sad truth of it is that our educational system does not educate us and by in large people are drinking the cool aid. OH no the government wouldnt do this, certainly wouldnt do that.... The government wouldn't import Heroin from the golden triangle using military crafts and circulate it for massive profits then arrest the ethnic pushers for it.... There are dozens of examples where big government is caught red handed doing ridiculously heinous acts but the news never reports on it... If it wasnt for the internet information highway alot of the shifty dealings of the gov would be swept under the rug and never brought to light. Keep blowing the whistles. Keep thinking for yourselves dont regurgitate the pleasantries of your family friends and neighbors. Revolution is coming slowly but surely. If this is a physical revolution or a revolution of the peoples' minds it is on the horizons. We deserve the freedoms we blindly holler to the rest of the world about.
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: dngdwn on March 27, 2013, 07:57 am
No, they can change a individuals life who chooses he is ready for whatever experience he wants to go through. Psychedelics are too strong to be exposed to a mass audience and there a awful lot of people I know who would not enjoy the effects. I'm sure many other people also have a friend who has had a bad trip and never quite returned to normality, one of my best friends has been suffering from post traumatic stress and depression for two years following a bad trip he had in my presence. Seeing that happen made me realize that psychedelics are truly something to respect otherwise you may end up paying a hefty price, this view hasn't put me off psychedelics at all although I have only taken acid once since and felt quite uneasy, but i'm perfectly happy on 2cb and have recently tried DMT which was hands down one of the best drug experiences of my life.   
Title: Re: Can psychedelics change the world?
Post by: wretched on March 27, 2013, 12:56 pm
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but they didn't change Charlie Manson.

LSD didn't do that tho Charles Manson, Charles Manson did that to LSD