Silk Road forums

Support => Feature requests => Topic started by: Chopperos on May 01, 2012, 09:15 am

Title: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: Chopperos on May 01, 2012, 09:15 am
1.) Remove the finalise early button entirely OR

2.) Make it mandatory for Vendors to produce a Vendors Bitcoin bond/deposit equivalent to their line of credit.  So when a buyer purchases an order, the same amount of money from the Vendor Bond goes into Vendor escrow in case of a scam.  If a scam is detected then the equivalent amount of the order gets refunded back to the Buyer out of the Vendors bond equivalent to the dollar value of the order - meaning they are not out of pocket.

Once the line of credit is used up (say $1000 of orders is out but not delivered) the Vendor cannot allow more orders to be paid for.  Once the orders get delivered, then the vendor click finalise and then the Vendors escrow deduction gets replenished back to the full limit. 

The benefits are:

1.) Genuine vendors can start small and build there business as scammers are more likely not to want to invest in the scam financially. You can start with a low as a $500 Vendors bond.

2.) Genuine vendors will flourish as when there business grows they can increase the size of the vendor bond.

3.) Vendors could become 2 tiered.  Those with Vendors bonds and those without.  This is a marketing angle for Genuine vendors.

4.) No buyer can get scammed by a Vendor wanting to finalise early (as outlined above)

5.) No vendor can get scammed by a buyer because the buyers original bitcoins are already in the buyer escrow system and conflict can be handled by mediation will continue down the well established routes.

6.) Once a vendor decides to quit SR, the Vendors bond is refunded and the Vendors account is frozen to prevent sales.

Clearly something new is needed to rid SR of the Scammers that have blighted its early days and I think the solution above provides a good level of security to buyers.

If something doesnt change then SR will always attract scammers.  We've already seen a fair share.

As a genuine and honest Vendor myself, I'd be happy to put the equivalent of $2000 into a Vendors bond to give customers reassurance that I'm not a scammer and am 100% legit.

What do you think guys?  Happy for feedback.

Chops.
Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: Kappacino on May 01, 2012, 09:50 am
Props for putting the thought in, but I think you are over complicating the issue.

SR is a free market, founded on the principles of agorism/anarchism (just listen to DPR, he's deep into that shit). Therefore the aim is to minimise regulation and provide an open platform for anonymous trading.

What we really need to do?

USE ESCROW

Seriously, that's all we need to do. It's there for a reason. New buyers should have to finalise early, that's just how it goes - until they prove they aren't a fucking douche, with some successful transactions. But once you've got a decent amount, ESCROW ESCROW ESCROW. Most vendors will allow it. And if they don't allow it? USE A DIFFERENT VENDOR.

That is the point of a free market. If we all start using escrow, vendors that want everyone to FE will lose customers.

The reason we all got scammed by Tony is because we elevated his status to that of a demi-God. Who would have thought he would scam us? #1 vendor, hundreds/thousands successful transactions.

So to stop scammers, we need to cut out this worshipping of vendors and excessive trust. I'm not saying distrust everyone or be an asshole but a bit more skepticism can't hurt.

If you trust your vendor and want to FE (I would still FE for some vendors even after this whole t76 situation) - then it's your own risk.

We don't need SR admins stepping in and creating more and more regulation and rules. The onus is on US, to not make dumb decisions. And that's all we need to do. There are plenty vendors on SR and more and more by the day and the vast majority of them allow escrow for people with good purchase stats - that's really all we need.
Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: cindylove on May 01, 2012, 09:53 am
Isn't cashflow issues one of the reasons vendors ask buyers to Finalize early? How is asking them to put up more money going to solve the problem? I agree that we need to do something about all the scamming, but so far all the suggestions I see are going about it the wrong way. Vendors do have legitimate grievances eg. with buyers failing to finalize on time (after having received the product), so any solution that does not take into account their point of view will fail. There is a thread in the vendor roundtable where the OP couldn't get product for the 420 sale because irresponsible buyers who had gotten their product couldn't be bothered to finalize.

Also, how wise is it to keep $2,000 "on deposit" with a site like SR where - lets not forget - we are at war with LEO? This site can disappear overnight. Imagine is this was one of OVDBs new years resolutions?
Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: Chopperos on May 01, 2012, 10:09 am
Hi,

thanks for your comments.

Yes cashflow is a problem but this would encourage vendors to start small and to grow at a steady ace, rather than the massive growth that we see with scammers in a short time.  Vendors should not want to grow at too large a pace as it puts pressure of supplies and packing and steady growth is a good sign of happy customers.  Rapid growth in a very short period of time is an alarming indicator really.

Perhaps those who have been scammed should ask SR Admin for a world map of scammers so that we can people who buy from a new vendor can essentially see where it is post marked from.  If it aligns with a known scammer previously it might provide early warning bells.  drastic maybe but least fewer people get burnt?

secondly the vendor deposit can start small.  There are already back up addresses stored on peoples profiles already so this is something already in place and the vendor bond refunded if necessary if they quit or if SR goes down.

Alternatively you just say no finalising early and people go through the usual paths to reconcile the problem is the buyer tries ot scam.

I think we have to do something to try and make it as difficult for scammers to scam whilst also protecting the buyer.  I'm sure Genuine vendors would not object to putting a $500 deposit aside to guarantee a backstop for buyers.

The problem with the current system is that scammers can open a vendor account so easily with no way of for the Buyers of distinguishing between a good vendor and a bad one.  There is no recourse for the Vendor if he scams.  he just shuts down, reopens and hopes people dont spot the province/state/area that he posts from.

Clearly the rating system is an indicator but it is also open to misuse as Vendors ask for FE such as Tony69 did and many others.

Unless the system is changed somehow or FE stopped, then the problem will continue to happen I think.  Unless people stop FE, but with good reputations people feel comfortable doing it.

Its a terrible shame and I'd like SR Admin to admit the size of the Tony scam (if it is indeed a scam).  It MAY be too early to tell just quite yet.

C
Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: hatedpatriot on May 01, 2012, 10:11 am
OP, this problem is not a simple one, good stab at it, though.

If I understand you correctly (didn't thoroughly read the fuck out of it) but it seems like you are proposing that SR, by way of a deposit system, be held accountable for future rip offs? Even if the coins are put in by a vender, look at what's going on in the rumor mill right now, you think SR wants any kind of obligation to appease a crowd like that?

Escrow should remain an OPTION as should finalizing early. I haven't bought much on SR yet, but I've made more than a few buys from multiple vendors. When I decide to buy, I look at more than feedback and inaccurate ratings and what the forum chatter is. It's subtle for me, the trigger that says go, it varies from one situation to the next. Not saying I can't get took, because I can and have, but I understand that I am essentially gambling and sometimes you loose. My point in all that chatter is buyers have to be more cautious with the FE button, or at least be honest with themselves that it is a gamble, not the buy now button at Amazon.

I wont say what put me off about Tony, because I don't want to be profiled lol, but I was certain I did not want to order from him. I never even considered it. I did not take him for a thief, though. I still don't.
Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: cindylove on May 01, 2012, 11:17 am
Hi,

thanks for your comments.

Yes cashflow is a problem but this would encourage vendors to start small and to grow at a steady ace, rather than the massive growth that we see with scammers in a short time.  Vendors should not want to grow at too large a pace as it puts pressure of supplies and packing and steady growth is a good sign of happy customers.  Rapid growth in a very short period of time is an alarming indicator really.

Perhaps those who have been scammed should ask SR Admin for a world map of scammers so that we can people who buy from a new vendor can essentially see where it is post marked from.  If it aligns with a known scammer previously it might provide early warning bells.  drastic maybe but least fewer people get burnt?

secondly the vendor deposit can start small.  There are already back up addresses stored on peoples profiles already so this is something already in place and the vendor bond refunded if necessary if they quit or if SR goes down.

Alternatively you just say no finalising early and people go through the usual paths to reconcile the problem is the buyer tries ot scam.

I think we have to do something to try and make it as difficult for scammers to scam whilst also protecting the buyer.  I'm sure Genuine vendors would not object to putting a $500 deposit aside to guarantee a backstop for buyers.

The problem with the current system is that scammers can open a vendor account so easily with no way of for the Buyers of distinguishing between a good vendor and a bad one.  There is no recourse for the Vendor if he scams.  he just shuts down, reopens and hopes people dont spot the province/state/area that he posts from.

Clearly the rating system is an indicator but it is also open to misuse as Vendors ask for FE such as Tony69 did and many others.

Unless the system is changed somehow or FE stopped, then the problem will continue to happen I think.  Unless people stop FE, but with good reputations people feel comfortable doing it.

Its a terrible shame and I'd like SR Admin to admit the size of the Tony scam (if it is indeed a scam).  It MAY be too early to tell just quite yet.

C

Once again, I agree with the sentiment, but your solution is flawed. The FE & related problems go both ways yet your solution asks everything of vendors and nothing of buyers. I don't know if you've had bad experiences with buyers here, but many who have will find your solution unacceptable. This has nothing to do with whether or not they are trustworthy, but rather is this process fair for the honest vendor who faces buyer scams, late finalization etc. Vendors are people too and any solution must involve concessions on both sides.

Furthermore, I don't know about you, but I chose to start vending drugs on SR because all viable options IRL had failed. I'm sure this is the case for many others as well. A deposit on top of the vendor account fee on top of 17 days for finalization on top of huge fees from SR, on top of btc volatility/conversion, on top of the time taken to convert btc to IRL cash. Not to mention we have to dodge the cops. This is just too much.

I have a proposal of my own on how to deal with this and I've sent it to SR. I can share it with you once I receive feedback from him.
Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: boston.george on May 01, 2012, 12:23 pm
The only way to prevent big scam IMHO is to cut out Special Sales.
Vendors should always be allowed to request FE because of buyers scam, but vendors are here to make more money they can in the shortest possible time so Special Sales are the best chance to disappear with ppl money because a vendor can collect in 48 hours the amount he would have collected in a month and who knows if SR will be still here in 1 month...?
Without Special Sales a vendor will NEVER have such a sharp increase in the volume of order, even if he is the Nr. 1 seller, so he would be much less willing to build up a great scam because the more he can expect before people start to doubt on the forum and drop his feedback is to collect a 4-5 days volume of orders.
Well vendors are here to make money they are not benefactors...a pair of times I was short of some BC so I tried to ask three different vendors if they could build up a custom listing to hook me up, two of them asked me to send BTC directly to their account and it sounded to me obviously very fishy so I didn't...
Vendors can easily selective scam on bulk orders because the feedback system sucks and it's the same if you order 0.5g or an once, that's why I'll NEVER put an order for more than 250$ on a single vendor.
Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: diskoking23 on May 01, 2012, 12:56 pm
Think Ian Brown said it best.......  Finalizing Early And Realizing!

Ian Browns - F.E.A.R. ( http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15ald_ian-brown-fear_music)

Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: Reece on May 01, 2012, 02:07 pm
I heard there was a system that stopped scamming called an Escrow.
Seemed like a pretty brilliant idea when used properly.

 ;)

I agree with this thread.
Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: ninja turtle on May 01, 2012, 02:36 pm
Quote
Once again, I agree with the sentiment, but your solution is flawed. The FE & related problems go both ways yet your solution asks everything of vendors and nothing of buyers. I don't know if you've had bad experiences with buyers here, but many who have will find your solution unacceptable. This has nothing to do with whether or not they are trustworthy, but rather is this process fair for the honest vendor who faces buyer scams, late finalization etc. Vendors are people too and any solution must involve concessions on both sides.

Maybe for buyers under say 5 transactions, they can be asked to FE but I agree with Chopperos direction of thought.

SR should close registration and get this sorted or they may lose it all.
Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: philter3 on May 01, 2012, 10:07 pm
Why complicate matters.. if you want escrow.. stay on S.R. and do business in escrow.
If you don't want escrow.. email the vendor and do a side deal off S.R. that has no security and has nothing to do with the Road.

Cause that's basically what you are doing if you FE with a vendor. You are shooting him an email requesting some gear, and he/she sends you back a BTC wallet ID, and you send some BTC over straightaway. Then you hope for your dope. That's FE.
Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: hatedpatriot on May 01, 2012, 10:23 pm
philter3, because that would cheat SR out of their commission. All arguments about the fairness of the size of their cut aside, it would be shitty to cut them out completely. Unless you have a long relationship with a vendor and are doing a bulk deal, I think that would ethical, but not to just outright cut them out on every deal.

You said it right at first. Its an option, do it if you feel good about that bet, otherwise don't. If a vendor wont fuck with you because of bad or low stats and you must fe to get their drugs, be honest with yourself that you are making a bet because you want those particular drugs from that particular vendor. Don't go telling yourself the system let you down or is broke if you loose your money. We should value having options, even if we cant make good decisions about which options to take. People screaming to change the system is why we barely have any options as adults in the US, let's not beg for that here at our humble free market.
Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: philter3 on May 01, 2012, 10:49 pm
philter3, because that would cheat SR out of their commission. All arguments about the fairness of the size of their cut aside, it would be shitty to cut them out completely. Unless you have a long relationship with a vendor and are doing a bulk deal, I think that would ethical, but not to just outright cut them out on every deal.



Patriot,
  I was not advocating people setting up side deals.. I was saying "If you FE it is basically a side deal in terms of the security/assurance you get".
 
Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: sirvice on May 02, 2012, 11:04 am
1.) Remove the finalise early button entirely OR

2.) Make it mandatory for Vendors to produce a Vendors Bitcoin bond/deposit equivalent to their line of credit.  So when a buyer purchases an order, the same amount of money from the Vendor Bond goes into Vendor escrow in case of a scam.  If a scam is detected then the equivalent amount of the order gets refunded back to the Buyer out of the Vendors bond equivalent to the dollar value of the order - meaning they are not out of pocket.

Once the line of credit is used up (say $1000 of orders is out but not delivered) the Vendor cannot allow more orders to be paid for.  Once the orders get delivered, then the vendor click finalise and then the Vendors escrow deduction gets replenished back to the full limit. 

The benefits are:

1.) Genuine vendors can start small and build there business as scammers are more likely not to want to invest in the scam financially. You can start with a low as a $500 Vendors bond.

2.) Genuine vendors will flourish as when there business grows they can increase the size of the vendor bond.

3.) Vendors could become 2 tiered.  Those with Vendors bonds and those without.  This is a marketing angle for Genuine vendors.

4.) No buyer can get scammed by a Vendor wanting to finalise early (as outlined above)

5.) No vendor can get scammed by a buyer because the buyers original bitcoins are already in the buyer escrow system and conflict can be handled by mediation will continue down the well established routes.

6.) Once a vendor decides to quit SR, the Vendors bond is refunded and the Vendors account is frozen to prevent sales.

Clearly something new is needed to rid SR of the Scammers that have blighted its early days and I think the solution above provides a good level of security to buyers.

If something doesnt change then SR will always attract scammers.  We've already seen a fair share.

As a genuine and honest Vendor myself, I'd be happy to put the equivalent of $2000 into a Vendors bond to give customers reassurance that I'm not a scammer and am 100% legit.

What do you think guys?  Happy for feedback.

Chops.

Holy fark dude, seriously, do you somehow read my thoughts or something?

Seriously though chopperos, i'm guessing your the vendor. Please message me, i'm going to flick you a message to discuss something.
Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: BlarghRawr on May 02, 2012, 11:34 pm
I'm not sure if someone has already said this, but there is no finalize early button. There is only a finalize button. And now, it even has an imposed wait of a few days before it becomes active.
Title: Re: MY PROPOSED WAY TO PREVENT ALL VENDOR SCAMMING
Post by: Yoshitoshi on May 03, 2012, 11:01 am
Here's my suggestion:

If a vendor requests "everybody to FE" in their listings, SR should disable that vendor's option to "auto withdraw", and possibly impose some kind of limit on any withdrawals until orders can be seen to have been fulfilled/received.

Essentially, move the escrow point from buyer/vendor to vendor/SR.

I'm not a vendor, so I don't know much about what goes on "behind the curtain" but it seems like this might be a reasonable backstop...from which it could still be possible to recover funds should the fans get painted brown. It might also discourage vendors from requesting blanket FE in the first place...