Silk Road forums

Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: BarryBarron on February 17, 2013, 04:51 pm

Title: Socialism
Post by: BarryBarron on February 17, 2013, 04:51 pm
I've seen several people claim that socialism is misrepresented, that opponents do not understand what they are arguing against.
Here is an opportunity for you 'comrades' to clarify some misconceptions.

Two points I want to start with:
Do you accept the labour theory of value?
How does a socialist economy overcome the problem of a lack of price signals as generated in the free market through the interaction of market actors?
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: Joey Terrifying on February 18, 2013, 02:27 am
"comrades?"  really?

public schools, interstate highways, unemployment insurance....all socialism.  the question is not whether or not socialism is "good," the question is in which circumstances and to what extent should it be implemented. 

but whether you like it or not, socialism is an integral part of western society.

the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: BarryBarron on February 18, 2013, 06:23 pm
"comrades?"  really?

Yes absolutely really comrades. Apparently that's how some people under the socialist umbrella relate to one another.

Glad to see some more comrades on here!  I met an Irishman on holiday here once and he was cool as shit.  His dad was in the struggle against British imperialism.  If I was in Ireland I would order from you just for your politics, but I do not order out of country as of now.  +1 Karma will have to do!   ;D

Thanks comrade! Members of  my own family have been murdered, tortured etc by the British too, and they still occupy a quarter of our country! The fight is still left in some of us Irish. we WILL be free!

 In solidarity comrade! +1
(This is only being quoted as an example to show that some people do relate to each other as "comrades")





public schools, interstate highways, unemployment insurance....all socialism.

You can't throw three things at me to see what sticks. We can discuss all three issues separately if you wish but I honestly think it's quite clear from my OP that  I'm talking about "socialism, comrades, the labour theory of value, and a socialist economy"  not a mixed economy. As I say I'm happy to discuss that though.


the question is not whether or not socialism is "good,"

Now, I never used the word "good" - so I don't know why you are putting it in quotation marks  ???
 
the question is in which circumstances and to what extent should it be implemented.

Brilliant question. I would broaden it to: What are our goals and what is the best way to achieve them.

Let's take your public schools example. You think this is a circumstance in which a socialist policy should be implemented  because it is the best way to achieve our goals.
Well I have to ask what are your goals for education and why is a socialist policy the best way to achieve them?


but whether you like it or not, socialism is an integral part of western society.

Well by integral you must mean that socialism is necessary for western society to function. I don't actually disagree with that. Socialism is an integral part of the way today's society functions. You say it is necessary for the good parts of western society. I say it's responsible for the bad parts.

the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Nice cliche.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: kmfkewm on February 18, 2013, 11:10 pm
"comrades?"  really?

public schools, interstate highways, unemployment insurance....all socialism.  the question is not whether or not socialism is "good," the question is in which circumstances and to what extent should it be implemented. 

but whether you like it or not, socialism is an integral part of western society.

the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Please kill yourself so your organs can be harvested and given to multiple sick people who will die without organ transplants. Because after all, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: TheJolllyRoger on February 18, 2013, 11:42 pm
 "Yes absolutely really comrades. Apparently that's how some people under the socialist umbrella relate to one another."

Glad to see some more comrades on here!  I met an Irishman on holiday here once and he was cool as shit.  His dad was in the struggle against British imperialism.  If I was in Ireland I would order from you just for your politics, but I do not order out of country as of now.  +1 Karma will have to do!   ;D

Thanks comrade! Members of  my own family have been murdered, tortured etc by the British too, and they still occupy a quarter of our country! The fight is still left in some of us Irish. we WILL be free!

 In solidarity comrade! +1[/quote]
(This is only being quoted as an example to show that some people do relate to each other as "comrades")

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Ye remind me of the Matt Damon character in "Team America", all he can say is hos own name hes so fuck stupid and limited.

What an ignorant fool you are eh? you don't understand "camaraderie"? Those involved or have been effected in a conflict or effected by oppressive forces and stood against it refer to themselves as comrades, its more than friendship or your fellow soldier, or pure trust,  its a common understanding, you wouldn't and cannot understand, you don't actually have the capacity, so dont try, laugh it off cos your the joke kiddo.

I believe your scumbag cowardly army in Iraq and Afghanistan would use it (wrongly) too, along all those oppressed fighting bck worldwide, except their war and resistance is/was legitimate, its solidarity, not some mickey mouse war of imperialism or oil, again you couldn't comprehend your numb upstairs.

Again im so happy im not so limited and i was born in a country with actual history, culture, identity with my fellow man and not raised as a naive ignorant cultureless fool,   this ...

http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/l/u.htm

Is you :)
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: BarryBarron on February 20, 2013, 05:21 pm
Quote from: BarryBarron
"Yes absolutely really comrades. Apparently that's how some people under the socialist umbrella relate to one another."

Glad to see some more comrades on here!  I met an Irishman on holiday here once and he was cool as shit.  His dad was in the struggle against British imperialism.  If I was in Ireland I would order from you just for your politics, but I do not order out of country as of now.  +1 Karma will have to do!   ;D

Thanks comrade! Members of  my own family have been murdered, tortured etc by the British too, and they still occupy a quarter of our country! The fight is still left in some of us Irish. we WILL be free!

 In solidarity comrade! +1
(This is only being quoted as an example to show that some people do relate to each other as "comrades")

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ye remind me of the Matt Damon character in "Team America", all he can say is hos own name hes so fuck stupid and limited.

What an ignorant fool you are eh? you don't understand "camaraderie"? Those involved or have been effected in a conflict or effected by oppressive forces and stood against it refer to themselves as comrades, its more than friendship or your fellow soldier, or pure trust,  its a common understanding, you wouldn't and cannot understand, you don't actually have the capacity, so dont try, laugh it off cos your the joke kiddo.

Well ad hominem attacks notwithstanding, the substance of my OP is about claims that socialism is misrepresented and misunderstood not about the definition of comrade. I think you're avoiding the subject at hand. And you seem to be quite upset:  How dare I ask you to clarify your position!  ::)


Quote
I believe your scumbag cowardly army in Iraq and Afghanistan would use it (wrongly) too, along all those oppressed fighting bck worldwide, except their war and resistance is/was legitimate, its solidarity, not some mickey mouse war of imperialism or oil, again you couldn't comprehend your numb upstairs.

Again im so happy im not so limited and i was born in a country with actual history, culture, identity with my fellow man and not raised as a naive ignorant cultureless fool,   this ...

http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/l/u.htm

Is you :)

My fucking army!?  :o
You're making a lot of assumptions about me while avoiding the issue of my post which is: Is socialism misunderstood.

You made the claim in another thread that socialism is misunderstood by its opponents. I would really like you to clarify your understanding of what you advocate. Maybe your right. Maybe socialism's great and we just don't get it - but we'll never find out unless you stop attacking me and explain your position.

So what is your vision for an anarcho-communist society? How are goods and services distributed, for example?
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: Ron Swanson on February 20, 2013, 06:36 pm
i think socialism is misunderstood yes.
it's culture and public attitudes. if they were to implement any progressive socialist welfare policies in the uk, the daily mail would go mental about scroungers. that's pretty much all they think of; unemployment benefits, housing, immigrants and scamming disability. people being able to live for free.. they don't think about the fact that there's universal access to healthcare, education, leisure facilities and the govt topping up wages of those on low incomes with tax credits because technically the minimum wage doesn't provide enough to live on.
i'm not a socialist. i'm a neo libertarian capitalist if you want a label. i do think the welfare system provides good safety net to those who need it. i'm pretty open minded and not an expert. i also think capitalism is pretty flawed too but really what's perfect?
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: northsouth on February 20, 2013, 11:40 pm
I don't want to defend all aspects of socialism. Pure socialism is a utopian fantasy, which has been tested in various practical implementations (communism f.ex) many times, with varying degrees of success (lets be honest, it has never really been successful). But it works wonders on stuff like crimerates. Economically is difficult to compete with the free market. When politics becomes a game of generating revenue, capitalism wins, hands down. The problem is the capitalistic delusion, that fulfilling your materialistic desires, is somehow a key component in living a happy life.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: Catgoesmeow on February 24, 2013, 08:51 pm
Is capitalism closely related to socialism?
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: Ron Swanson on February 24, 2013, 09:18 pm
as a huuuuge simplification; capitalism is more about generating capital for individuals or businesses whereas socialism is more ensuring every member of a society is taken care of. kind of the opposite.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: purplebirds1234 on February 25, 2013, 02:47 am
Pure socialism is a utopian fantasy, which has been tested in various practical implementations (communism f.ex) many times, with varying degrees of success (lets be honest, it has never really been successful).

In other words, every system comes with its ups and downs. It pisses me off when people want to put different economic systems in boxes, because they just do not fit. Most countries are a combination of different economic systems because one simply will not work.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: The Scientist on February 25, 2013, 06:36 am
Socialism and Capitalism are two sides of the same coin. Both are materialistic ideologies which reduce human life to a factor of economic production. Both are false religions.