Silk Road forums

Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: SmellsLikeCalifornia on August 17, 2013, 05:44 am

Title: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: SmellsLikeCalifornia on August 17, 2013, 05:44 am
My main concern in this topic are the bankers. I've had close friends who have worked for title/mortgage/sales in real estate in 200n 3-2008 and they said that before the bubble burst they were heavily pressured  by Clinton regulations to give mortgages as long as they had like 35-65% of the $$ needed to pay that mortgage. And look where that has gotten us, in a REAL housing crisis, that now the bankers are still on top!!! WhyTF are they building sub-division, by sub-division, by sub-division, by gas stations, (at least 20 new ones in the past year) road work construction everywhere. I hope this can give us hope for a better tomorrow, but I can only really see history repeating itself on this one. IDK how banking regulations have changed, but I guarantee this just seems too soon. Are bankers sending us down the wrong road yet again?

SLC
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: ripthesystem on August 17, 2013, 06:09 pm
Bankers essentially run the world, and unlike a government they have no obligation to appear to represent or consider the well being of the people. So I wouldn't be surprised for this and their other schemes to just repeat every few years or so.
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: Maozun on August 18, 2013, 02:18 pm
Power and control of Central Banks has been the catalyst behind many wars/crises already in history.

"It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." H.Ford

The power in the Occidental word is the power of the money, this power of money is the power of the banks, and this power of the banks is the power to create money thanks to the power they have on the Dollar via the Federal Reserve (1913).

This cartel of 12 banks (international) have the power (power they gave themselves by slowly gaining political influence using money. money buys everything) to lend money to the rest of the world. To create money from nothing but touching high interests rate. The masters of investment.

They are the masters of the money and therefore the masters of the world in this world based on commerce/market and a materialist vision.

It is a long historical process where the bank took the power bit by bit. It began with let's say 'classical' societies that knew that interest loan is a 'sin', something socially destructive, forbidding it in a first time and then allowing it but controlling it because during the 12th century there is an economical development in the Mediterranean and in EU that make it kind of necessary. So at the beginning it's tolerated but in the margin. And with the time this marginal thing came the central point of power. See the Reason vs Church opposition, the Reason the Bank and the Church.

Nowadays they have almost total control, States cannot lend themselves money through their own central bank and to finance their political/social projects have to buy money on the private market.
And today if we look at logic of power in America:
The power of the bank bought the congress (financing the politicians) and the congress obeys to the bank therefore the power in USA is the power is the Fed Reserve.

This process can be seen as a logical/mechanical process where banks that once permitted economic development, by the mutation of capitalism into financial abstract capitalism and the logic of the profit became high yield bonds totally destructive that live on the accelerated destruction of industrial wealth. And this is a logical process that can be defined as the failure of capitalist accumulation.

But we can also think this process is wanted by the oligarchic elites and there is a vision of the world behind it.
Today the capitalist world is the world of oligarchic privileges and destruction of wealth that is not based on free market. This can be verified since today the market is not a market of free competition but instead controlled by the American military power. We are in a world of oligarchic banker elite predators that use the logic of debts (generalized debts, from the states to the individuals, everybody lives with a loan and spend his time paying off his loan at the bank ie as the slavish farmers worked the field so landlords could eat without working)

And extending this project in the world is what we would call NWO. That was since a few years ago looked as one of many conspiracy theory but that today is a project announced by oligarchical elites saying we need a world government with economical power to IMF and we see what IMF does, drastic cuts in social budgets, salary reduction for state employee, injunctions systematically violent for workers in order for the country and the people to be able to pay "the debt", ie the debt racket.

Then we could talk about the theological aspect of all this shit.
"I'm just a banker doing God's work" Lloyd Blankfein

I believe we live in a crucial moment when we shall see if this long and slow process of domination of the bank will succeed or if the nations and their people will stand up against it.

Annyway personally I'm ready for the collapse.
The sky is falling, the wind is calling, be ready homies...
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: proxanne on August 18, 2013, 11:35 pm
America has long battled centralized, privately owned banks.  Since the settling of the colonies to be exact.
It is seriously fucked up and evil how banks work.  It's not because of fiat currency but that it is loaned with interest.  We do not need to borrow money to have wealth.  The opposite is true.  The current model is one of perpetual debt. We, as Americans (or whatever your nationality) should be actively seeking to remove our system of debt based money and replace it with fiat, no interest currency which is valued by the country's wealth, not the amount of debt in circulation. Money should not have inherent value.  It is a measurement of wealth. Our current model just perpetuates the system and stops progress to be made in society.
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: neplusultra on August 19, 2013, 03:59 am
All of our social problems are a reboot of problems previous generations faced, and so on and so forth. History repeates itself. It's been like that since the Romans fucking ruled! Unless there's some massive, planet-wide spiritual awakening, don't see any reason why anything would change.

The biggest danger that our generation and future generations face is Fukushima and the like. Becuase unlike war, financial inequality, The Holocaust, the housing crisis, etc which are forgotten or equalized with time, radtiation lasts for a long long fucking time. We don't get our shit together this plants gonna look like zombieland or worse.
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: Baraka on August 19, 2013, 06:28 am
Cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin will bring the international bankers to their knees. You can't stop it. No one can. It's only a matter of time.
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: GlenRunciter on August 19, 2013, 10:01 am
The OP is very important and correct.  Americans need to wake up and smell the roses.  The financial sector got so humongous, almost 40% of our economy, because of the loss of all the good middle class manufacturing jobs overseas.  So what happened?  Home building became the new panacea...along with an endless suburbia to service all these people in the new housing developments...with a Wal-Mart, Best Buy, and a Target store on every corner.   Jobs lost thru the traditional manufacturing sectors were replaced for awhile in the construction business and other jobs supporting the huge housing boom.  And what helped this endless suburban sprawl to develop over the last 30 years?  (besides cheap oil, different story)  Banking deregulation, and pushing dodgy mortgages onto would-be homeowners who in the past wouldn't be able to qualify.   

Banking deregulation helped spawn all these crazy practices like derivatives trading, and credit-default swaps, that ended up sinking our economy in 2008.   These esoteric securities, based on these fraudulent and circumspect housing mortgages, were the catalyst for the housing bubble to burst.   But so many bankers and Wall Street types were getting rich off these farces, and the people put in charge to regulate everything just let it happen.  This all started in the Clinton Administration with the likes of Alan Greenspan at the FED and Robert Rubin, Clinton's Treasury Secretary.  Look at the revolving door between high government positions with high positions at the major banks.   Rubin, Larry Summers, Hank Paulson were all CEO's at one time at Goldman Sachs, or one of these other huge banks....then they get jobs in government REGULATING these same banks where they once were CEOs.....(similar with Dick Cheney and Halliburton.) 

It's sickening.  And Mr. Obama "Change We Can Believe In" has done nothing about it...has put none of these bad actors in jail.  In fact, he's considering Larry Summers, one of the worst culprits associated with the 2008 crash, as the new head of the Federal Reserve once Ben Bernanke's term is up.   What does that tell you?    This isn't the America we learned about in our textbooks growing up.  Something fundamentally askew is afoot and many culprits have gone unpunished...and now the rule of law in the US is just a joke.    I'm glad I don't have children, that's all I can say.   

I could rant about this till the cows come home, but it's too depressing.....thanks for bringing this topic up though, more people need to get engaged and help stop the takeover of our country by the banking elites.   It's the poor people who suffer, while they get off scot-free, with barely a slap on the wrist. 
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: GGGreenbud on August 20, 2013, 01:54 am
   The crazy thing is, people see what the government is doing, and assume it's ok to not save, and to pay most of their income to a usury scam in some form.  You hardly ever hear the term Usury anymore, even in the media, especially in the media.  I got out of the weed game for that reason, I felt I was taking advantage of my customers, and was myself an economic slave to the syndicate I freelanced for.   Credit is like buying coke and paying for it after, no one wants to pay for drugs they already did!
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: GlenRunciter on August 20, 2013, 07:25 am
The real problem is the general shrinking of a 'middle class' in America...we have gone from a manufacturing economy with good Union jobs that provided a growing and thriving middle class to a 'service' economy where most jobs are low skill, low wage that are found in fast food, big box stores, or other customer service sectors.  These jobs were historically for the young or part-time jobs for women...now 40% of income in our families come from low wage jobs.  That's why the minimum wage laws can be so helpful...we've been seeing walkouts and strikes at Taco Bells and Wall Marts for higher pay.   The rich 1% keep getting richer and the rest of us are just treading water if not losing ground.....this status quo cannot be maintained. 
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: Baraka on August 21, 2013, 07:32 am
NO. It's not deregulation that caused any problems. Derivatives were never regulated in the first place and they've been around for 30 years.

It's SELECTIVE regulation. The biggest companies which have the most people in the public-private "revolving door" receive government protection. The smaller companies are either regulated or taxed out of existence. Or at least until the point that they lose enough money that they can get bought out by one of these huge government friendly companies.

The companies are massive. The government is even bigger. One hand washes the other. If you decide to actually compete with friends of the government then you're dead. It's that simple.

Banking deregulation helped spawn all these crazy practices like derivatives trading, and credit-default swaps, that ended up sinking our economy in 2008.
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: Baraka on August 21, 2013, 07:53 am
But why do you think that is?

The government has destroyed small business across America. In fact small business creation and existence are both at all-time lows right now. And small business was always the greatest creator of jobs and economic activity and the middle class. Not big business and their big unions.

Unions priced their workers out of the market for a long time. Why would ANYONE hire someone here for $70/hour with benefits when they can hire someone with the exact same skills for $10/hour in Brazil? Or Russia? Or India? Or China?

Would YOU pay $60K for a Ford Fusion if you were forced by the government to support domestic car makers??

Unions also lobbied for a constantly higher minimum wage so that if you were a business you HAD to hire a union worker. You weren't allowed to hire someone else. Especially poor minorities who were willing to work for a lower but market-based wage. Naturally many businesses closed up here and reopened in countries where they were actually respected. The jobs and economic activity went with them.

Mexico's economic growth has beat America's 2x over since 2008. And nearly 90% of the jobs created during the "Obama recovery" have been part timers. The rest were either legitimate full timers or government workers. Just sickening.  :P :o

Meanwhile the government-protected banks and the Federal Reserve continue to print money at a record pace.

The real problem is the general shrinking of a 'middle class' in America...we have gone from a manufacturing economy with good Union jobs that provided a growing and thriving middle class to a 'service' economy where most jobs are low skill, low wage that are found in fast food, big box stores, or other customer service sectors.
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: GlenRunciter on August 21, 2013, 08:28 am

The government has destroyed small business across America. In fact small business creation and existence are both at all-time lows right now. And small business was always the greatest creator of jobs and economic activity and the middle class. Not big business and their big unions.

"The Wal-Mart-ization" of America has destroyed many small businesses across America...and towns and the traditional ways of life.  America sold it's soul so it could get a hair dryer for two dollars less from China.   We are all culprits.  We did it to ourselves.   Instead of people going downtown to shop at Joe's Appliance, Murphy's bakery, and Peabody's Five and Dime...they go to the outskirts of town to the new Wal-Mart.  Everything has turned "suburban."  And all suburbia looks the same whether you're in Charlotte, North Carolina or Portland, Oregon.  Traditional town centers are gone...buildings vacant because they couldn't compete with the cheap foreign goods bought at bulk pricing from Wal-Mart and Target.   This is a way of life with no future as oil becomes more and more scarce and the sheer price of transportation of enormous quantities of goods becomes untenable.  In my area there are already vacant box stores as the Best Buys and Circuit Cities go bye-bye.  Suburbia will be the new slums.   And all the McMansions that came along with suburban growth, which were just fueled by cheap, unregulated garbage mortgages, yadda, yadda, yadda we know how all that went down...
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: Baraka on August 21, 2013, 09:27 am
Ask yourself: how come it costs a LOT less to produce goods in far away countries and then spend more money shipping them 10,000+ miles than it does to just produce what we need right here at home?

Really. Think about it.
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: GlenRunciter on August 21, 2013, 08:27 pm
Well I would venture a guess it has something to do with cheap labor costs...i.e. virtual slave labor, very lax to non-existent labor & workplace regulations, sweat shops, etc.       Fueled by demand from American consumers...which I'm sure is on a downward trend. 
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: Baraka on August 22, 2013, 08:07 am
Chinese workers' wages are for shit. Still some of the lowest in the world. They used to be a lot lower. Just 15 years ago the country was in total poverty. Now they have the fastest growing middle class in the world. In fact it's the largest middle class of any country by population.

I guess you're right though. People in China and other countries should never have been allowed to work for "slave labor". Who needs a middle class anyway?? They should be forced to live in shit instead.
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: GlenRunciter on August 22, 2013, 08:23 am
It wasn't my intention to deny anyone a middle class.  But our planet is at over-capacity as it is...I don't think it can handle a middle-class the size of the Chinese, or the Indian, and Indonesian, etc.   Resource scarcity will abound.  Fresh water, fossil fuels, natural gas for electricity...our planet won't handle it. Pollution, carbon emissions, climate change.....etc etc.    Humans won't handle it....resource wars will abound.   With rising middle classes come (supposedly) higher wages....so where does the cheap, cheap labor come from?  Will it just migrate to poorer areas, as countries progress towards greater prosperity, the shit slave labor jobs just move elsewhere...like sub-saharan Africa?   Prosperity can't continue on an upward trajectory forever ....  a contraction is in the works..... humans have just exploited the planet too much.   
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: Baraka on August 22, 2013, 09:03 am
You say it's not your intention to deny anyone a middle class. Then you go right on to say that there are too many people living and you blame the rising middle classes around the world for all kinds of disastrous problems. Ok. So the only two antidotes for too many people living on earth is to:

(a) arrange numerous genocides around the world to reduce the population to an "acceptable" number
or
(b) mass, forced sterilization around the world to reduce the population to an "acceptable" number

Is that what you're campaigning for?
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: Kozmik on August 22, 2013, 10:19 am
Its a bit unfair to accuse Glenrossiter of "campaigning" he seem to be making a point that this planets resources are reaching their limit vis the number of people here, amongst other comments. Incidentally that does not seem to be the case; the worlds resources, if used in a sane manner, would support far more people than we have now. we still eat animals for instance, a grossly wasteful cruel and inefficient way to feed ourselves. Every steak would feed around ten people if consumed as grain for instance. Our problems are many and a lifestyle of consumerism, which is continually pushed by the corporatocracy because it makes a lot of money for a few people, is not helping. Consumerism basically leads to the rape of the worlds resources by the few which are exchanged for lives of debt slavery for the many, a neat system from their pov, they trade the natural wealth of the planet for a lifetime of your labour. Some people would say that "jobs", which are again pushed as the be all and end all of life, are no more than slavery anyway.If you work for someone you are their servant. Here in the uk there is no real democracy and most people feel they have few choices, that is if they manage to see beyond their consumerist debt cages. Things are going to become fraught as the people in exploited countries want what they rightly see as their share of global wealth. Resource wars are not about feeding ourselves so much as trying to maintain obscenely rich lifestyles while the the third world is unable to feed its children.Humans are fallible and in a sense cant be blamed for wanting to be rich; but riches come at the cost of others going hungry. Freedom is the only good worth having; The global elite will sooner or later have to face the consequences of their greed in that this planet may take its revenge; they have to live here too. Meantime a lot of people are going to die and our environment is going downhill fast. But the rich hope that they will be insulated from the coming chaos by their wealth, and so nothing will change until change is forced on us all. Fed reserve is evil; corporatocracy enslaves;I need to lighten up and roll a spliff.
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: Baraka on August 22, 2013, 11:02 am
Quote
Its a bit unfair to accuse Glenrossiter of "campaigning" he seem to be making a point that this planets resources are reaching their limit vis the number of people here, amongst other comments.

He very clearly said that the rising middle classes around the world are the problem and that too many people living on earth are a problem. I suggested the only two possible solutions to the problem. I don't think that's unfair. Maybe he'll say he disagrees completely and offer up an alternative that I haven't thought up. But either way that's what he said.

Quote
the worlds resources, if used in a sane manner, would support far more people than we have now

A sane manner huh? And who determines what is right for each and every individual and their families? Mega world government?? With an equally powerful police force of course.

Quote
we still eat animals for instance

Humans require certain vitamins and amino acids found only in animals to survive. Otherwise various kinds of disease and anemias develop. The only way to get around this if you're a vegan is to take supplements. You're free to do that if you want and I support you 100%. But I'm happy to continue to eat (mostly organic) red meat myself. I selfishly enjoy it, know it greatly benefits my health, I can afford it and no one can force me to do otherwise.

Another thing about meat: a process has been developed to grow muscle cells for meat. You've probably seen the news recently. This could change the whole business of feeding the world and could mean the end to the modern feedlot. It's still in its infancy but where will we be in a few decades? If we just left people alone and got the government protection racket out the way we could get there even faster.

Quote
Our problems are many and a lifestyle of consumerism, which is continually pushed by the corporatocracy....

The "corporatocracy" isn't pushing anything on anyone any more than shit movies are pushed onto moviegoing audiences. If a bad product is put out then people won't buy it. Simple as that. The companies making this stuff are catering to the market. You on the other hand wished they would dictate to people what they should and shouldn't consume. Sort of like the Soviet Union. And sort of like the DEA when it comes to drugs.

Quote
Consumerism basically leads to the rape of the worlds resources by the few which are exchanged for lives of debt slavery

A few decades ago there was very little debt. A man could raise a family of 6 kids and his wife (who didn't even have to work!) on a plumber's or carpenter's wage. He had a house and little or no debt. Consumerism was very much alive back then. Really no different than today. So what happened? I'll give ya a hint: it ain't the consumerism.

Quote
If you work for someone you are their servant.

Then start your own business!

Oh wait a second.... you can't. Read my previous post in this thread.

Like you and so many others here I feel the same way. Still even more people don't and would be very happy to work for someone else. If they're told they have to work for a minimum wage and can't be employed for ANY money as a result then that's a serious problem. A problem that's led to the permanently fucked up economy we have today.

Quote
riches come at the cost of others going hungry

With the current fascist system the middle class is being eliminated in favor of the ultra rich. That's what the partnership of massive government and massive corporations protected by that massive government produces. So I agree with you here only in the context of what's going on today. Otherwise I would say that's total bullshit.

Quote
Fed reserve is evil; corporatocracy enslaves;I need to lighten up and roll a spliff.

Right on man! Just remember that the corporatocracy really just means fascism. NOT capitalism or the free market.
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: Kozmik on August 22, 2013, 07:51 pm
For Baraka;
First off an easy one; yes it is perfectly possible to be a healthy human without ever eating meat. I am sorry you are simply wrong on that one. There are millions of vegetarians worldwide who are in good health. I have no issues with your choice to eat meat (glad to hear you made the sensible choice to eat organic) and I did not say anything in my post regarding what people should or should not eat. Simply that the grain used to produce a steak would feed between seven and ten people.

You say I cant work for myself. Sorry I do just that.

The relationship between a small number of people having huge wealth and a large number of other people going hungry is obscure; nonetheless it exists.

using the worlds resources in a sane manner; I did not mention a coercive body such as a world government plus mega police force. I mean that the wealth of planet earth is concentrated in the hands of a small number of people compared to all humanity. I have no solutions to offer to this problem but I can certainly dream of a fairer society where noones kids have to go hungry.

The corporate state does indeed foster consumerism because there is the source of its wealth/power. What do you think all those ads for new cars, perfect bodies, the latest shinies are doing? they are indeed pushing you to consume endlessly. A fascist state is simply a good environment for those who would rape the worlds resources and make debt slaves of the populations.

Time for another spliff.

Regards   Koz

Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: GlenRunciter on August 22, 2013, 11:15 pm
You say it's not your intention to deny anyone a middle class. Then you go right on to say that there are too many people living and you blame the rising middle classes around the world for all kinds of disastrous problems. Ok. So the only two antidotes for too many people living on earth is to:

(a) arrange numerous genocides around the world to reduce the population to an "acceptable" number
or
(b) mass, forced sterilization around the world to reduce the population to an "acceptable" number

Is that what you're campaigning for?

Of course not...look, the current way of doing business isn't sustainable.  How many humans can our Earth support?  We've gone from 300 million people at the height of the Roman Empire and didn't reach 1 billion until sometime in the 1800's.....right now we're in the vicinity of 7 billion!   And climbing rapidly.   This last two hundred years we've been pumping billions of tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere from the burning of fossil fuels.  Human have really screwed up the equilibrium of things.  The Earth has a way of evening the score.  Pandemics, wars, famines, black plagues, rising sea levels, weather disasters due to climate change.....all will eventually play their role.   I'm not cheering this on...I'm not hoping for disaster. I'm just trying to be a realist about things.     AS Kozmik said, not verbatim, but I believe in spirit "smoke 'em while ya got 'em".......or as good ol' Jim Morrison once said "Let's get our kicks in before this whole shit house goes up in flames!"     :P 8)      I'm just thankful I don't have any children.    :P

BTW, Cheers, Koz...I think you and I are pretty much on the same page.  ;)
Title: Re: Thanks America, I foresee lots of problems in this country soon
Post by: ~o~WaterWalker~o~ on August 23, 2013, 02:08 am
usury was banned by the church,bible, jesus as long as they could and for good reason..  besides gods law, usury also breaks natures law since money can not be gained from money.  It is an aberration since you can never have enough to be whole once there is interest on money

that is why the jubilees existed as a reset before it got perverse

there is much to awaken yourself by studying money throughout history

You'll also find out that the Dark Ages were not that dark at all..  there was not much usury and people lived in slow economic growth in europe but it was in many ways some of the more empowering time for the self and spirit..  remember, poor is poor but debt is slavery