Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: Twelve_Pickles on January 07, 2013, 09:56 pm
-
I've often read that if your having too much of an overwhelming LSD trip, one can take a benzo or two to calm things down and keep reality normal.
seeing as im inexperienced with LSD (But no so much with other psychs mushrooms,2cb, 25I/C Nbomes DMT) and with benzos, never taken a single one; im asking the community as to which benzos to purchase if one indeed does have too much of an intense trip and how many to take.
i intend on breaking my LSD cherry very soon and want a few benzos about just to have about for safety.
thanks for the replies in advance
-
a couple 10 mg valiums always helps calm a trip that gets a little too wild for me.
-
I once used lorazepam to kill a 2C-P trip. It worked.
-
If you want to stop it you will need something stronger like some antipsychotics, benzodiazepines won't do the trick especially not Valium.
2CP is a phenyl ethyl amine, every benzo should nuke the shit out of it in a high enough dosage. Valium is generally a bad choice, but its one of the oldest and well known benzos.
-
interesting.. I've always read that taking an anti-depressant will (almost) immediately stop a LSD trip...because of some competitive inhibition with serotonin or something (i can find the article/post if anyone is interested...mind you it'll take a long time and I'm realy stoned so i'll see what i can do. And i conversed this with my professor to which he said, if a patient indeed came in with (LSD) trip, and that pushing 2mg diazapam might not fully control the person..to which i think (if you're supressed, wouldn't you just have a gnarly-er trip in your head where ANYTHING and EVERYTHING is possible?) then give him more..But then again these docs have never taken LSD or any other hallucinogenic substance.
yea most docs here aren't too keen in understanding of the LSD. Anyway, to my thinking.... You'd have to take a 5-HT2a antagonist which will pretty much end your trip. With a few minor visuals, the whole "TRIIIIPIN BROO"stage is over, and you can think like a "normy" where everything isn't a prophecy.
But, the more common antidepressants which block the reuptake of Serotonin are very effective in ending peoples trip. Unfortunately, you have to build it up in your system to which it does take time....so no practical.
SO, if you're prescribed or know anyone whos prescribed a SARI or SNRI or even SSRI and you're afraid of your trip, keep some on the side. BUT remember, it DOES vary from one person to the other and the depressant anti pill that has the longest half-life would be generally better at (numbing) the LSD trip to be comfortable for the easily afraid.
Might not be comparable..but i remember when i had a really bad trip off shrooms a long time ago and the only thing i wanted to do is sleep...however that was the worst decision i made because reality is completely wiped out and anything goes in the mind (i saw myself lieing facedown on ground blah blah blah pretty sure i was dead blah blah, you know how it is.) I could'nt sleep for shit and when i came to (came back in my body after going through my whole life etc) i was overwhelmed with a sense of NEEDING to be home (or in a homey type of area) where i continued to try to sleep and continued to bad trip until reaching my city where everything was lifted off my shoulders and i felt warm and comfortable....yea shrooms haha crazy shit
But most important to remember...set and setting
set and setting
set and setting
set and setting
you can have the dankest liquidiest crystaliest most potent acid in the world...but if you're in a place where you second doubt or aren't comfortable, no matter how cool it would've been or how awesome the story would've been or how hot the chicks were, its honestly not worth it.
I'd rather trip NUTS in my bathroom than go somewhere where i feel sketchy or unwanted. BUT dont get that mixed up with exploring. i fucking love exploring.
however if you think you NEED an anti depressant, then i'd suggest taking a tricyclic as it doesnt'have much of an effect on anything and some people report having a "trippier trip toward the end" after being prescribed a tricyclic, like Dothiepin.
However, i think it could be concluded that an antidepressant NOR a benzo can stop the lsd trip in its tracks...rather slow them down. Then again, if you take LSD, why would you want to stop it? haha
OHHHH Found an awesome writeup by Dr.Kit Bonson. Serotonin Club 8) kool kids
The basic idea of the study arose because I have a lot of friends who have been on antidepressants and also have a long-standing interest in hallucinogens. They would call me up (as their personal pharmacologist) and want to know why they had unusual responses to LSD while they were taking antidepressants. It turned out that the experience one had on LSD could be highly variable, dependent on which antidepressant one was taking. Based on these initial reports, I asked to interview people with similar histories by placing announcements in the local D.C. alternative newspaper, on newsgroups on the Net, and by an article in the MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) newsletter. People also contacted me after hearing of the study by word of mouth or by being referred by a health professional.
Although many many people responded to my request, I was only able to use those reports where there was a "control" condition, ie: either the person had taken the same hallucinogen prior to antidepressant treatment or else had friends who had taken the same hallucinogen but were on on antidepressants. Everyone who participated was given a structured questionnaire that first asked about the person's antidepressant treatment, other drugs they regularly consumed, and past experience with hallucinogens. Then I asked about the experience the person had with a hallucinogen while taking an antidepressant. The main thing I was interested in was whether there was an increase, a decrease or no change in the person's response to the hallucinogen in terms of the time it took to get high, the physical effects, the hallucinatory effects, the psychological effects, the total time they were high, any aftereffects or alterations in sleep and then their overall impression of the trip.
In a nutshell, people who were taking serotonin-selective antidepressants or MAO inhibitors had a decrease or abolishment of their response to hallucinogens. This is in contrast to what happens when people were taking tricyclic antidepressants or lithium: they had a vast increase in their response to hallucinogens. Please note that everyone who responded had been taking antidepressants for at least 3-4 weeks, if not longer. This is the time necessary for therapeutic effects to begin, and this is thought to correlate with changes in neurotransmitter systems in the brain. We have no information about what happens when people have only taken antidepressants for a short time and then consume a hallucinogen.
Below is a more comprehensive summary of the data:
SEROTONIN-SELECTIVE ANTIDEPRESSANTS:
*Fluoxetine* (Prozac) -- even at doses of this antidepressant ranging from 2mg/day to 40 mg/day, there was an overall decrease in most effects from LSD (no matter how much acid people took), as well as a decrease in response to ketamine. There was no change in response to psilocybin. There does seem to be a decrease in the response to MDMA.
*Sertraline* (Zoloft) -- the effect with this antidepressant seems to be dose-dependent. At 50 mg/day, there was no effect on the response to LSD nor to psilocybin. However, at 100 mg/day, there was a decrease in response to both LSD and MDMA.
*Paroxetine* (Paxil) -- decrease in response to LSD.
*Trazodone* (Desyrel) -- decrease in response to LSD.
TRICYCLIC ANTIDEPRESSANTS:
*Imipramine* (Tofranil) -- increase in response to LSD.
*Desipramine* (Norpramine) -- increase in response to LSD.
*Clomipramine* (Anafranil) -- increase in response to LSD.
LITHIUM:
(*alone* or *in combination with a tricyclic antidepressant*) -- increase in response to LSD or psilocybin.
MONOAMINE OXIDASE INHIBITOR:
*Phenelzine* (Nardil) -- decrease in response to LSD
**TAKE NOTE OF THE RESPONSE TO MDMA: combining an MAO inhibitor plus MDMA has led to a hypertensive crisis and a near-fatal response in many people!!! This could be anticipated because MDMA is a substituted amphetamine, and stimulants should not be combined with an MAO inhibitor!!! DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!!
There were a few other psychotherapeutic drugs that people combined with a hallucinogen, but you'll have to wait for the journal articles for these odd responses.
How do we explain these data?? Well, this is a bit of a theoretical problem. One would want to say that the hallucinogenic response occurs because of 5-HT-2 stimulation and therefore there was down-regulation of 5-HT-2 sites following serotonin-selective antidepressants and MAO inhibitors, thus leading to elimination of the hallucinogenic response. The problem is that these antidepressants do not always alter the brain in this way. The other, bigger, problem is that tricyclic antidepressants are thought to act very similarly to SSRI's in their ability to down-regulate 5-HT-2 sites, and thus there is no accounting for the appearance that TCA's increase response to LSD. We are at the stage now where we are trying to formulate a theory based on the difference between classes of drugs in terms of their effects on 5-HT-1A sites and in terms of the way the different antidepressant change serotonin levels. Since LSD has effects not only at 5-HT-2 sites but also at 5-HT-1A sites, this may allow for why these drugs affect the hallucinogenic response differently.
Kit Bonson, Ph.D.
kbonson@earthlink.net
I deleted out some texts including her thanks and why and when she started her experiments and so on
So, hopefully this helps out. I think the consensus is....
Thorazine(chlorpromazine) is most commonly used to diminish and eliminate the trip of LSD
AND POSSIBLY a benzo would work but I wouldn't suggest it (but who the fuck am i?)
SSRIs and mdma=not good.
Carefull for serotonin syndrome too
happy tripping :)
and get a tricyclic (chlorpromazine/Thorazine) to speed up the trip and help it eventually come down.
-
i snorted mxe once while on an lsd trip and to my surprise, it pretty much completely negated the psychedelic effects of the lsd! i've never had to take a benzo while tripping. weed helps any anxiety i might get, but the most important thing is: no resistance. if you start feeling bad, do not resist the negative feelings. doing so will only create tension, making things much worse.
-
Use benzos it works. I have been using it during bad trips and it always worked.
Or GBL.GHB - you will feel happy again.
-
eat 2mg of xanax. That'll end your trip. :)
-
From experience benzos will not end a LSD trip or atleast a strong one.. But defiantly help...
The benzos will just help calm you down....When people are having a bad trips it raises your anxiety (you get scarred for whatever reason and you go into and endless mind loop of negative thoughts ).... The benzos will calm that down bringing you "back" to reality (make you realize you were wigging out over nothing)....At the same time taking benzos at the end of any trip really helps for sleep/eating....Also if you take benzos daily and eat L you are still going to trip!!
But to the OP, if your responsible your first trip (not taking a heroic dose) you should be fine!!! Dont think a first timer can go wrong with a 150-200ug dose!..Never hurts to have a back up plan tho!
-
A bar of xanax will do the trick unless you are speaking in tongues and frothing at the mouth completely psychotic then I'd call the ambulance.
-
i agree, i had a 2 bar a day addiction to xanax and when i dropped acid i still tripped but sometimes i would get chest pains and realized i may be having a panic attack from withdrawal of xanax (i didnt take it when i would trip cus i didnt want to null the acid any) id take a small amount to stop the chest pains. i realized it was probaby a good idea to wait until i got off xanax to trip again. ive been clean for a year and i can trip clean now. i always have some xanax near by when tripping just in case. had to use it when i was in a bit of a tailspin that i couldnt pull myself out of. i would say start with a lower dose like half a bar or even a quarter (.5mg) just to take the edge off. with a lot of xanax you will still trip but you wont care haha
-
I don't recommend trying to stop a trip using antipsychotics, it just seems like using one mighty force against another in your brain. Can't be good for you.
When I trip too hard I find lorazapam(aka ativan) works great. It does not stop the trip but it does help you calm down. A bad trip is nothing but a panic attack and ativan will take the piss out of a panic attack in 3 minutes flat if you get the kind that dissolve in your mouth.
I find valium is too slow for when things get too intense. Liquid xanax(alprazolam) also works very fast to calm you down if you can get it.
It has been a long time since I had an unpleasant LSD trip, having clean acid really helps avoid these things. I normally smoke huge amounts of weed and only take some xanax once the trip is over and I need t sleep. LSD tends to keep me awake much longer than the trip.
-
I don't recommend trying to stop a trip using antipsychotics, it just seems like using one mighty force against another in your brain. Can't be good for you.
When I trip too hard I find lorazapam(aka ativan) works great. It does not stop the trip but it does help you calm down. A bad trip is nothing but a panic attack and ativan will take the piss out of a panic attack in 3 minutes flat if you get the kind that dissolve in your mouth.
thanks for that advice Tessellated, Lorazemam is the stuff that i'd read about. +1s to everyone who commented.
also a question, would 300ug of LSD be too much for a first trip? considering JORs next batch
-
300ug is quite a lot for a first trip...
My advice would be not to escape from the bad things in the trip. Bad trips have been the most insightful ones I ever had.
If things go bad, go for a walk, don't just sit still.
If you really want it to end my recommendation would be:
Sugar
1000mg vitamine c (the ones you can put into water and they go all bubbly... because eating eough oranges, or eating at all will be impossible).
If you want chems:
10-50mg oxazepam
High dose quentiapine(seroquel). Don't remember what high was, 200mg or something.
Or mirtazapine (Remeron) which I happen to sell 8) 30mg's. It's a kind of antidepressant, but a pretty unique one.
-
300ug is quite a lot for a first trip...
My advice would be not to escape from the bad things in the trip. Bad trips have been the most insightful ones I ever had.
If things go bad, go for a walk, don't just sit still.
If you really want it to end my recommendation would be:
Sugar
1000mg vitamine c (the ones you can put into water and they go all bubbly... because eating eough oranges, or eating at all will be impossible).
If you want chems:
10-50mg oxazepam
High dose quentiapine(seroquel). Don't remember what high was, 200mg or something.
Or mirtazapine (Remeron) which I happen to sell 8) 30mg's. It's a kind of antidepressant, but a pretty unique one.
How does the Vit C work?
-
Most of the time a bad trip can be helped with good friends... a nice tea or orange juice. Becoming grounded and getting away from triggers that are causing issues.
Sometimes the loops and the anxiety can be a bit much... thats when a 10mg Valium or a .5 mg xanax can really take the edge off. I honestly am not of the opinion that taking the edge off your trip with benzos in any way detracts from your trip, or that vital lessons you could have learned will be missed.
You know what... trauma is trauma and I am all up for relieving people of their traumatic experiences... (especially if they have been stuck in the same endless loop for the past four hours and I am afraid for their mental health.)
Obviously I wouldn't come into an Ayahuasca circle and give someone a benzo because they were getting eaten by imaginary Jaguars. As an experienced tripper and trip sitter you have to use your best judgement on whether you think your friend should start to chill the fuck out. You should also know before hand if any of your friends are aware of being allergic to Benzos (wow wouldn't that suck ass)
I've personally been at the smaller end of wig outs where a valium was all i needed to find some peace of mind and get out of an anxiety loop - I've also been fully psychotic, arrested in the middle of the street reciting prophecies and screaming in tongues... and I tell you I am so grateful and relieved that I was given an injection of (I assume it was benzos).
When I asked the Erowids about it (in person) ... they said that they can't officially recommend it because they aren't doctors... but in their experience Benzodiazapines were the best for treating an LSD wig out. And I agree.
-
someone recently posted about how adderall (dl-amphetamine) could be used to steady a trip and bring the user back to reality or reinstate some normal cognition
methylphenidate was used too,
theres been alot of research on these combo's in use with psychotherapy sessions in the last few decades.
I'd be more inclined towards xanax as its the quickest acting.
but if i had the choice i'd do 0.5mg alprazolam(xanax) and 5mg diazepam at the same time, the xanax would kick in faster and allow the diazepam to kick in.
If you have 0.5mg clonazepam, use that instead of the diazepam and repeat if you have trouble sleeping.
-
300ug is quite a lot for a first trip...
My advice would be not to escape from the bad things in the trip. Bad trips have been the most insightful ones I ever had.
If things go bad, go for a walk, don't just sit still.
If you really want it to end my recommendation would be:
Sugar
1000mg vitamine c (the ones you can put into water and they go all bubbly... because eating eough oranges, or eating at all will be impossible).
If you want chems:
10-50mg oxazepam
High dose quentiapine(seroquel). Don't remember what high was, 200mg or something.
Or mirtazapine (Remeron) which I happen to sell 8) 30mg's. It's a kind of antidepressant, but a pretty unique one.
I fully get and understand that you can learn a lot from bad trips, but this is some of the most terrible advice I've ever heard!
Vitamin-C has always made my fry's more intense. If a person is having a bad trip, it's best that they get to a safe place where they feel comfortable, Not be in public; not only the possibilities of becoming lost, apprehended for being obviously under the influence, incoherent, stumbling into traffic or other odd behavior but also for their mental well being.
I don't recognize all of your chemicals, but seroquil is a powerful anti psychotic. When your brain is going bat shit crazy or having a panic attack, it would be like putting a straight jacket and strapping it to a chair as opposed to a benzo relaxing it. Especially when in an open state like that it would be asking for trouble.
-
theyre generally only given to manic psychotic people, they wont kill the trip but subdue and sedate the person
-
I don't recommend trying to stop a trip using antipsychotics, it just seems like using one mighty force against another in your brain. Can't be good for you.
When I trip too hard I find lorazapam(aka ativan) works great. It does not stop the trip but it does help you calm down. A bad trip is nothing but a panic attack and ativan will take the piss out of a panic attack in 3 minutes flat if you get the kind that dissolve in your mouth.
thanks for that advice Tessellated, Lorazemam is the stuff that i'd read about. +1s to everyone who commented.
also a question, would 300ug of LSD be too much for a first trip? considering JORs next batch
First of all Lorazepam is a great benzo but expensive I prefer Etizolam (bought in powder and dissolved 20mg in 10ml 70% Absinthe and 0,5ml will do the trick).
And for the first time I would not go with a full 300µg trip. Take the half amount 150µg if you want to be sure you get enough. My sweetspot (with no tolerance) is somewhere beween 120 and 150 µg. More then 200µg and I am no longer the MC the L take the lead.
I take L for decades and this NYE I wanted a full trip and took 2 WoW from DelEllis. Well 200µg + are nothing I can handle in public with people running around and throwing fireworks... ,-) Ended up, going home and made love with my wife.
take care
12345
-
Most of the time a bad trip can be helped with good friends... a nice tea or orange juice. Becoming grounded and getting away from triggers that are causing issues.
Sometimes the loops and the anxiety can be a bit much... thats when a 10mg Valium or a .5 mg xanax can really take the edge off. I honestly am not of the opinion that taking the edge off your trip with benzos in any way detracts from your trip, or that vital lessons you could have learned will be missed.
You know what... trauma is trauma and I am all up for relieving people of their traumatic experiences... (especially if they have been stuck in the same endless loop for the past four hours and I am afraid for their mental health.)
Obviously I wouldn't come into an Ayahuasca circle and give someone a benzo because they were getting eaten by imaginary Jaguars. As an experienced tripper and trip sitter you have to use your best judgement on whether you think your friend should start to chill the fuck out. You should also know before hand if any of your friends are aware of being allergic to Benzos (wow wouldn't that suck ass)
I've personally been at the smaller end of wig outs where a valium was all i needed to find some peace of mind and get out of an anxiety loop - I've also been fully psychotic, arrested in the middle of the street reciting prophecies and screaming in tongues... and I tell you I am so grateful and relieved that I was given an injection of (I assume it was benzos).
When I asked the Erowids about it (in person) ... they said that they can't officially recommend it because they aren't doctors... but in their experience Benzodiazapines were the best for treating an LSD wig out. And I agree.
nothing to add 1+
EDIT:Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 72 hours.
next time then =)
-
Or mirtazapine (Remeron) which I happen to sell 8) 30mg's. It's a kind of antidepressant, but a pretty unique one.
This is confirmed. I did it many times.
-
Any thoughts on what amitriptyline(antidepressant), trazadone(antidepressant), or triazolam (rare+strong benzo) would do to a trip?
-
Don't take any benzos. Face your fears. Sit through it.
-
Don't take any benzos. Face your fears. Sit through it.
Yeah, I'd agree with this though it's good to have them for friends who don't feel the same way to calm them down. Just remind yourself that you're tripping and you wont always be like this.
-
Don't take any benzos. Face your fears. Sit through it.
totally agree with you on this. when having a "bad trip," the most important thing to do is accept your negative feelings. if you resist them, it will create tension, which will in turn make the trip even worse. it's essential to learn how to go with the flow. resistance is futile, so don't try it!
-
I can't say I agree. I think there are valuable lessons to be learned from bad trips; however, sometimes people NEED to chill out from a bad trip. If you were to bring a tripping person to the hospital they would administer benzo's. I feel it's safer to have them on hand.
-
When I was first introduced to LSD, I foolishly ingested about 600ug. I would have certainly been sent to the hospital if there was someone else around and if I wasn't rendered completely immobile by the intensity of the fear and despair that I was experiencing. It almost scared me off psychedelics for good. In retrospect I do not regret this trip, although it took me a while to psychologically recover from it. I learned more things from that trip than anything else. Having experienced fear in its pure, disembodied form, I have never experienced fear since.
-
i snorted mxe once while on an lsd trip and to my surprise, it pretty much completely negated the psychedelic effects of the lsd! i've never had to take a benzo while tripping. weed helps any anxiety i might get, but the most important thing is: no resistance. if you start feeling bad, do not resist the negative feelings. doing so will only create tension, making things much worse.
A friend of mine recently did a bigger bump of K at the end of a shroom trip and found himself sober in a blink. In most cases I don't think it works this way.
As far as my $0.02 on the LSD+BENZOS: benzos likely wont put the tripper in a worse state of mind although too much benzo on a heavy trip may end up not so good if the tripper simply loses most of their inhibitions while continuing to trip.
I will personally use a benzo around 9 hours into an LSD trip if I feel like sleeping but feel too cracked out to do so...
-
Maybe a combination is whats needed.
something like a fast acting benzo taken with a longer acting and a strong sedative, along with muscle relaxants.
of course, you'd need to make sure none of these sedatives and relaxants add to the respiratory depression caused by the benzo's.
My favorite benz' is Midazolam IV.