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Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: psychonauts on August 14, 2012, 01:43 am

Title: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: psychonauts on August 14, 2012, 01:43 am
i'd like to try heroin, but i'm afraid of needles and physical addiction. any  good alternatives for me?

edit: looking for a similar high without the physical addiction, if possible
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: BoNgOn on August 14, 2012, 04:26 am
dont do it....
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: psychonauts on August 14, 2012, 04:30 am
dont do it....

yeah no i mean i dont wanna fuck with it, i'm hoping there are some other drugs out there that give a similar high without being as risky. wishful thinking?
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: inthedaytimewitha on August 14, 2012, 04:34 am
a similar high WITHOUT the physical addiction doesn't exist
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: l0574l0ne on August 14, 2012, 02:11 pm
Oooook.

The high from all opiates is all about morphine bonding to the right receptors in your brain (and spine IIRC). So, different opiate compounds turn into morphine with different degrees of speed and completeness.

Heroin catalyses very very quickly into morphine meaning that (compared to the other opiates) you get a massive wave of morphine splooshing through your brain like a fire hose, it acts even faster than raw morphine. This will get you increadibly high. The trade off is that it doesn't last very long and withdraw is almost immediate.

The other opiates are all very much slower catalyzing (ie 'weaker') but functionally provide the same kind of experience. Certainly for someone who has not used opiates before, you would not need heroin to get the full suite of awesome opiate effects, including nodding out. So what could you use ?

Codeine is the easiest to get hold of, and you certainly can get pretty high on it. But you would have to extract the horrible (and fatal) paracetamol from the pills. It's a horrible way to get a fix quite frankly. If you are ~180lbs then you'll need like 10+ 8/100 pills to get anywhere at all, and easily double that to actually get properly high. It's a ballache, and a LOT more dangerous than just buying 'real' drugs.

So ideally don't do that.

The right place to start is with Morphine (a timeless classic) or Hydrocodone (made famous by House).

If you can legally buy poppy pods in your country (as far as I know you can in the EU and possibly america too, but don't know for sure) then I would advise Morphine consumed in the form of poppy tea as a good place to start. Its easy to make, just remove the seeds from the pods, run them through a coffee grinder, add just-boiled water, let it stew, filter out the remaining powder and drink. It tastes alright too. Not awesome, but alright. I'd advise starting with about 4 big pods. If you are opiate naive, you will be in for a good time. If you google 'Poppy Tea' you will find a guide that will help you out.

On the more illicit front, both Morphine and Hydrocodone come up here reasonably frequently. Heroin is much much much cheaper for the same quantity of drug for many reasons, mainly because peasants in Asia are the primary source of Heroin, while 'clean' drugs need a lot more processing.

Both Morphine and Hydrocodone are pretty potent. Perhaps 20mg will get you into a good place, and you can then work out where to go.

Hope this gives you some things to think about. You will always pay a premium for medicinal-quality drugs. Its just the nature of it. You don't ever need to use needles (and open up the can worms that they do) unless you really want to. The reason that a lot of H users inject is because it is by far the most economical way to take anything. Nothing is lost, and there is immediate effect. It is also very risky.

In terms of physical addiction, there is no easy way to side step it. The less powerful the drugs you are taking, the less it is a worry because the withdraw symptoms are less bad, but there is simply no way to totally avoid it other than not using opiates more frequently than perhaps once a week.

It is very very easy to get hooked on opiates and very hard to get out from under. Do be careful.
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: psychonauts on August 14, 2012, 07:15 pm
l0574l0ne - thanks very much, very informative post.
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: InkIndulgence on August 14, 2012, 10:46 pm
Yeah I would stay away from opiates altogether. Find a genre that can take 2nd place.
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: vvbutterflyvv on August 15, 2012, 07:27 am
i'd like to try heroin, but i'm afraid of needles and physical addiction. any  good alternatives for me?

edit: looking for a similar high without the physical addiction, if possible

theres no such thing, if there was ppl would be doing that and not heroin....
dont go near the shit, trust me itll hook you like a worm and swallow you whole and you wont even realise until its too fucking late!
i used to be afraid of needles too...now i love them, got an addiction and have lost everything and owe at least $250,000... and have a crim record and have also been homeless...all within a year of wanting to "try" heroin...there is no "trying" this drug.
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: Limetless on August 15, 2012, 07:41 am
I don't really know why people get so tempted by Heroin, it's like Meth and Crack as well. People know what happens when you do these drugs, bad shit happens and you end up ruining your life. I have never met or heard of anyone who was the exception to this rule. The fact you want to try this OP suggests less that you are looking for a good time and more that you want to play with fire and push the self-destruct button. I suggest you take a long hard think about why you want to try Heroin or Heroin-like substances in the first place because I suspect the reason wont be a positive one.

Just my thoughts on the subject, take it how you will.
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: Black Sheep on August 15, 2012, 03:59 pm
Well there is a lot of misinformation in this thread... I will attempt to clear some stuff up....

All opiates and opioids DO NOT metabolize into morphine. As far as I know, other then morphine, only codeine and diacetylmorphine (heroin) turn into morphine in the body.

Opiates are not nearly as bad for you physically as crack or meth or ANY STIMULANT. They do not kill heart tissue on contact like cocaine and they are not neurotoxins like amphetamines. Opiates are relatively benign to the body. Their worst side effect is constipation... Oh yeah and a raging physical addiction that must be fed daily. It is not life threatening and not as bad as people make it out to be in my opinion but what do I know... In almost two years of use I've only withdrawn once due to a planning blunder... The worst of it was over in 3-4 days. However, if you're living the rollercoaster life of most opiate addicts I could see how it would be really annoying and suck pretty bad.

I use heroin and poppy pods. I spend about 8-12 dollars a day on my habit. Many spend more on weed or beer! This is not the norm though... Most users chase the high and can spend hundreds of dollars a day. I've had no problem owning a legitimate business as well as going to school and having a decent to good life while using heroin. Again, this is NOT the norm. I feel that heroin doesn't turn men into desolate wastelands rather they begin that way when they start using heroin. The culture of heroin use is such. It attracts the, for a lack of better words, losers.

Limitless a couple exceptions to your rules would be Benjamin Franklin and Alexander the Great. Both were opium users.

OP, after everything I've said, it's still probably best you don't try opiates. You WILL like them. Heroin is like a 4 hour orgasm. There is a good chance you will get addicted and if you do there is a great chance you won't be able to handle it and you could ruin your life. Literally.

If you're dead set on trying them, go with codeine or hydrocodone. They will give you the same feeling. Many actually prefer hydrocodone, oxycodone, hydromorphone, or oxymorphone to diacetylmorphine but use it due to its price. Since its made in third world countries with no regulations its an extremely good value compared to pharmaceuticals.

As you can probably tell I love opiates and in my not always humble opinion I feel they have enhanced my life and I've been able to maintain well on them. Please understand that this is not the case 98%+ of the time...
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: yellowmattercustard on August 15, 2012, 04:17 pm
Quote
Heroin is like a 4 hour orgasm.
Sounds awesome :) Is MDMA-high comparable to heroin high?
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: Black Sheep on August 15, 2012, 04:40 pm
It's been 4-5 years since I've used ecstasy(who knows if it was really mdma) but I must say the other day I was thinking to myself that there are some similarities.... At least in my experience. It definitely gives me that "love" feeling but it's not as intense as the first time with x. But even ecstasy isn't as intense as the first time with ecstasy if that makes sense. It's more mellow and for me, it's easier to function. It's not so obvious that I'm high. Sometimes it makes me energetic and sometimes opiates make me nod out. Hands down opiates are much better for the daily user but as a one time all out experience mdma might take the fight. I definitely enjoy the subtleties of opiates more than the nervous energy of stimulants.
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: ultramarket on August 15, 2012, 07:06 pm
Please don't start an opiate habit.  It is not worth it, at all.  BlackSheep's experience is extremely atypical.  Most people don't have the willpower to limit their opiate intake once they acquire the habit.

Cooked opium is great to smoke, and poppy tea can be very social...  but even these habits can spiral you down hard.   See: The Boxer Rebellion
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: Snoopish on August 15, 2012, 08:10 pm
I'll preface this by saying I seem to have a low tendency towards addiction and a low tolerance for most drugs.

I've used hydros and oxys on a semi-regular basis and usually have a good amount available to me and have never felt stuck taking them. I can pop just 5 or 10 mg (1-2 tabs usually) and feel good for a few hours and then not do it again for a few days to a couple weeks. Usually the dizziness/nausea keeps me from doing more than that in one sitting.

That said, there's lots of good drugs out there and if you feel for your personal use it would lead to a problem (and there is a lot of respect to be had for a man who knows his limits without hurting himself first)  then just forget about it and try something else. If you really want to try it, buy like 4 or 5 percocets or tabs or whatever they sell on here and take 15 worth (I'd imagine that'd be good for a first time if you really want the effects).

Be careful. Every experience gives a person something to  be had and it's nice to experience everything.

Cheers
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: supralevel on August 16, 2012, 04:33 am
Hi - as suggested a perfect alternative is not to be found.

If you however want a smoother alternative I would say that buprenorhine being a mixed agonist antagonist can fill your criteria for being less addictive.

I would also stress that yes, heroin is very physical addictive - but the main problem is that its also psychological addictive - if one could lower one of the two maybe I had preffered the last as that would gave the user much better control.

i'd like to try heroin, but i'm afraid of needles and physical addiction. any  good alternatives for me?

edit: looking for a similar high without the physical addiction, if possible
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: Black Sheep on August 16, 2012, 05:28 am


If you however want a smoother alternative I would say that buprenorhine being a mixed agonist antagonist can fill your criteria for being less addictive.

Why do you think this is a good idea? Because he is opiate naive he might get a buzz from bupe but even codeine will probably be a better high. He'll get all the bad sides with none of the good. Bupe has a super high affinity to binding with opiate receptors and is actually ~35x stronger than morphine. Heroin is 2-3x morphine. Plus bupe has an insanely long half life. He has a good chance of getting addicted without getting any of the good effects. I believe bupe has a higher affinity for opiate receptors than naloxone. Meaning if he OD's by chance, the most common opiate antagonist will be ineffective.
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: InkIndulgence on August 16, 2012, 05:34 pm
Also, personally as far as opiates go I would rather bang oxy's all day than H. Not factoring in price of course. It's a much cleaner high for me, and doesn't make me feel as shitty afterwards. But maybe I've just gotten crappy H. Everything just makes people think that heroin is the "ultimate strongest opiate" but I disagree.
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: l0574l0ne on August 16, 2012, 08:53 pm
Apologies for saying that all opiates breakdown to morphine. I really did think that it was all of them that did that, but on further research it seems I am wrong. Apologies again.

I would have to say that I am in the same camp as Black Sheep when it comes to being able to balance my life an my opiate habit. I have poppy tea every day, and occasional oxy/hydrocodone and a smidgen of H around my birthday. I spend about £100 every two or three months on pods, and then when I have money to burn that most people would take down the pub, I use other things.

That said, I am an addict and have been for nearly three years. Traveling abroad ? Not going to happen. Going anywhere that will take more than 24 hours ? Very tough. Spending three days with my family at christmas ? Extremely difficult to make happen.

All opiates are addictive, and I have never met anyone who didn't like them. They are wonderful, but they can definitely take over your life with very little help. It is possible to balance using and real life, but it is a constant struggle. I think it is worthwhile, or at least for me. It made me a better person in every important respect. I'm a manic depressive who prior to finding opiates had some extreme impulse control issues. Booze and drugs and young women were my constant friends. Opiates made me balanced and reasonable, being a MUCH better boyfriend to my other half, I finished my undergraduate degree and my masters under opiate influence.

That's why I am an addict.

I wouldn't recommend this path to anyone else, ever. But I do feel an obligation to help other people that are probably going to go down the same route to, and particularly to help them stay away from the very real dangers that there are.  Sticking to just about anything else means that you can manage the dangers, staying away from street dealers, from junkies who are looking to rip you off, from needles and all their dangers. Most importantly longer lasting opiates mean that you only need a minor dose once a day to be a normal every day person.

Just try to remember that opiates can very easily become a life long issue that will colour every experience that you have. Even with my relatively soft level of addiction, I have twice felt the need to do morally disgusting things in furtherance of it, quietly pocketing dead mens medications while their families grieved around me. 

Opiates don't attract losers, but they can make losers out of anyone.
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: Black Sheep on August 16, 2012, 09:31 pm
Lost: I guess I should clarify what I meant... I think HEROIN attracts the social outcasts and the screw ups. I'm trying to say a lot of them had tons of problems before using heroin. If it wasn't for H, it's a good chance they'd be strung out on something else. Of course the heroin doesn't help... This is just my opinion and I could just be trying to justify my own use. I tend to think I'm "different" from other users but maybe I'm exactly the same...

I do share a lot of your experiences though... I don't see myself smoking cigarettes my entire life or using other drugs until I'm old but with opiates I'm not sure... I've never felt complete and I never really cared about myself until I started using opiates. I figure the many positives I've seen outweigh the bad. I keep my use very private in real life due to social stigmas but I really don't have much of an internal struggle or feelings of guilt and shame over my use.

No one knows what happens when we die... Other drugs were just a cover up and I definitely felt euphoria with things like coke but opiates make me happy... Is that so bad?
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: l0574l0ne on August 16, 2012, 11:19 pm
I do generally agree that most people who use H on a daily basis probably got there through a bad road. We all have addiction wired into our brains, things that feel good we will do over again. When you find something that is quite as magical as H (or crack or meth or anything), if you had a life where there was nothing you cared about, then it becomes even more addictive: The loving arms that solve all your problems, for a price of course.

I had the same feelings as you about life before and after opiates. They make me feel like a real person. I never really cried before I used, but now I do. Not all the time, but when I'm sad, or when I find things touching me in unexpected ways. It was a revelation to cry because I was happy. I have quit cocaine, and drinking, and exhilerating extra-marital affairs. All of these things that I could live without because they were filling in for my feeling lost and broken. I am terrified that if I quit opiates, I'll lose the person that I am now. And for the first time in my life, that's someone that I like.

Opiates too have made me happy. Not just when I'm riding the wave, or nodding out, they've made me reasonably content... I certainly don't think that things are perfect... I could use a better job, and no student loans, and a nicer place to live... But now the things I'm unhappy about I can change.
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: Limetless on August 16, 2012, 11:55 pm
Limitless a couple exceptions to your rules would be Benjamin Franklin and Alexander the Great. Both were opium users.

Lol how are these exceptions to the rules? Franklin was well known to abuse it and Alexander the great was hardly stable either. Just because they were around before we were a glint in the milkman's eye and did great things doesn't mean they didn't have Opium addiction/dependency. I do believe that addiction has been around since before the 20th century, I mean I can check that for you but I am almost certain it has.
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: TheAbsurd on August 16, 2012, 11:58 pm
Smoke weed and take Soma. I managed to do it recreationally and not get hooked, but I was smart to know when to stop (after 4 uses or so).

Kratom was even better, and the best part is that it will give you a really shitty hangover. So you get a taste of the opiate effect but you won't want any more.
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: Black Sheep on August 17, 2012, 02:24 am
Lost it seems we have a lot in common... My mom said as long as the good things you do outweigh the bad, it's okay. It's weird quoting ones mother... Everyone has their vices... At least ours aren't damaging to the body and keep us content. I also don't desire other drugs or risky behavior since I've started using opiates. Keep up the positive life style man!

Limitless: In your earlier post you said heroin will ruin your life and you've never met an exception. Well those two men were very prominent in society and did great things. Yes they had an addiction but, in my opinion, physical addictions aren't nearly as bad as people believe. Its the mental aspects that keep people using. Think about it... How come most heroin addicts have to detox many times before they can quit? The heroin is out of their body and the chemical addiction has been broken. Yet they go back... How come people using opiates for legitimate pain problems can quit, go through the discomfort of withdrawal, and be done with it? It's because they aren't mentally afflicted. Now there are some people who get addicted to opiates and we're introduced to them through pain management but those aren't the people I'm talking about. There is a difference between addiction and dependence. Are we addicted to food? We need it every day, our bodies will "hurt" without it, and if we go long enough without it, we'll probably do a lot of grimey things to get it. No, we're dependent on food.

There is a theory that says some people have an endorphin deficiency. Endorphins, as you probably know, are our brains natural opiates. Morphine is present in our brains naturally. Opiates, like cannabis, wouldn't work if we didn't have the receptors for them. Now this theory isn't at all proven but I think there's some truth to it... Some people use heroin to the max and sky rocket there use and the only thing that limits them is monetary concerns. When asked what they like about the drug they will reply "the high" or "nodding out". They will never say they like how it gives them confidence, peace, vision, helps them work harder, or makes them feel "whole". Then there is the small percentage who can use opiates responsibly. I use 100 mg of H a day supplemented with a couple poppy pods. I've been using opiates for two years and started with only poppy pods. When I introduced H into my regimen, I reduced my poppy pod dosage by about half. So basically it was a wash... I haven't increased my dose in about a year and a half...

How is this possible? By the definition of addiction I should escalate my usage, right? I believe I'm dependent on opiates... Not addicted...
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: Black Sheep on August 17, 2012, 02:33 am
Oh and somas are not opiates... I'm not sure if you were suggesting a combination to recreate the effects but I guarantee you it's not the same. You might be sedated but the warmth and love just won't be there... It won't make you glow. Now kratom is a little different. As far as I know it's not classified as an opiate but some of its alkaloids do affect opiate receptors. However, I believe they agonize delta opiate receptors and not the mu receptors. The mu receptors are responsible for most of the pleasurable affects. For example, salvia is a kappa opiate receptor agonist. That being said, I believe high enough doses of kratom can kind of flow over, if you will, to mu receptors from the delta receptors. Still... I think I'd rather have codeine than kratom... But I'd probably take kratom over tramadol or propoxyphene... That's not saying much though. Okay I'll shut up now :-)
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: l0574l0ne on August 17, 2012, 06:52 pm
Kratom is an interesting substance, certainly not unpleasant in my experience but a lot less of a high than opiates. If someone tossed it to me for free then I'd happily use it, but at the same time I won't spend my money on it. I remember some birthdays ago I parachuted a lot of kratom and took a six hour long bath. That was pretty awesome. But I haven't had that kind of effects in subsequent uses.

Addiction is an extremely difficult thing to accurately describe, mainly because people who study it haven't used a great deal of drugs. If you ask people who take drugs why they do, most people say 'because it feels good'. And while that is functionally true, its also very glib and somewhat unhelpful. Obviously you wouldn't take drugs if they didn't do something for you. If you were to sit someone down and ask them to pull that answer apart for a while, you'd probably end up with the real answer being 'because I don't feel really happy most of the time'. Medical doctors hate psychology, but you don't get good answers when you don't ask useful questions.

That answer is at the core of why anyone does anything. If we were all genuinely happy with our lot, we'd have no ambition, and we'd do nothing other than eat, sleep, work and shit. We all have a core need to find happiness, its the main way that consciousness makes us different from animals. We are not content merely to survive.

Why bring this up ? Because it answers questions about how addiction functions. If you are someone who is so deeply nihilistic and empty then the answer has to be to chase the high, no matter where you find it, more and more every time. If you have found a balance point where the drugs make you happy, then you can stay there. For me, using more and more drugs might make me higher every day, but not happier.

I do consider myself to be an addict, to be dependent and to be a junkie mainly because its what other people would call me. I am ok with that. Everyone finds the words that work for them. As long as you aren't in denial about how the drugs effect you, then its not a problem.
Title: Re: suggest a less physically addictive alternative to heroin?
Post by: wolfstein on August 17, 2012, 08:20 pm
Heroin is an opiate, and any similar drug is going to be an opiate. All opiates are physically addictive with repeated use. Be responsible and have the willpower to know when enough is enough: I've used opiates recreationally for years (even IV) and never been addicted.

Like another user said here, Hydrocodone (Vicodin) is your best bet when weighing the effects with the addiction potential. ~20 mg is a nice starting dose. You should know these pills always contain tylenol (acetaminophen) or ibuprofen in them though. Tylenol is VERY bad for your liver and ibuprofen's not so great either. Google "cold water extraction" and you'll find out how to remove most the shit from the good stuff.

You could always try oxycodone as well for a better buzz. Just be safe and know your limits and your body.

edit:

Kratom would actually be a great place to start. It's a unique substance that will give you an opiate-like high. I've used it in the past and found it quite nice. It's completely legal in the USA so far as I know. You can simply go online and order it from a reputable vendor rather than jump into the underbelly of the web's black markets.  ;)