Silk Road forums
Discussion => Off topic => Topic started by: Barbijuana on June 28, 2012, 03:41 pm
-
Judicial review just ended on Obamacare and 6 out of 9 Supreme Court Judges just deemed Constitution. The individual mandate was also upheld.
Ya'll hippies that don't have health insurance provided through a job can now be fined/jailed/punished for not purchasing and carrying Government provided individual health insurance.
So.
What the fuck happened to the Land of the Free?
-
What's with Americans (not all) having something against healthcare?
I really don't understand that. If it would be for free would it be better or at least acceptable?
Money is the only thing I consider as a negative. I guess I do some research now...
-
What's with Americans (not all) having something against healthcare?
I really don't understand that. If it would be for free would it be better or at least acceptable?
Money is the only thing I consider as a negative. I guess I do some research now...
Nothing is free
-
The US is getting way out of control, especially in the last 10 years or so. The whole net is wiretapped, and they've been stonewalling the EFF's investigation. They've summarily killed at least two US citizens without due process, and are routinely killing innocent people in other countries with drones. They declared that Internet-based attacks would be considered acts of war while simultaneously working with Israel on advanced malware to sabotage Iran's nuclear reactors. Now they're trying to make basic investigative journalism illegal. When they leak classified information to the press that glorifies the president, it's fine; but if you leak information regarding government crimes, you'll be prosecuted for espionage. And needless to say, it doesn't seem to matter to anyone in the current government how high the piles of severed heads in Mexico get as a result of its stupid, insane drug war.
Obama has been even worse than Bush on virtually every important issue. After this upcoming election, barring a miracle, the US president will be either 1) the same guy who's demonstrated he's unfit for office, or 2) the other guy, who is still struggling to differentiate himself from the president.
All Americans need to keep their eyes open for ways to help. I'm not optimistic about turning it around, but we won't feel right later if we don't at least try.
-
It is just a hidden tax like inflation. Families and individuals that don't carry health insurance through a company are now going to be forced to shelling out hundreds a month for Government Health Insurance or otherwise face criminal charges.
How do you tell someone living on the streets or supporting a family on a fixed income that they now have to pay for something they may or may not use. Not to mention, if you've ever served and tried getting anything processed through a V.A. hospital -- it's a great example of how efficiently the government runs anything.
My grandpa has asked me to shoot him with his Army issue hand gun before taking him to the VA Hospital -- All they do is misdiagnose and shell out medications supplied by Big Pharma contracts to soldiers struggling with injury and psychological issues who end up abusing alcohol, using drugs and then committing suicide.
Check the current suicide rates for American Veterans. The numbers are astonishing and still climbing.
-
What's with Americans (not all) having something against healthcare?
I really don't understand that. If it would be for free would it be better or at least acceptable?
Money is the only thing I consider as a negative. I guess I do some research now...
Because it's not free. With 1 trillion dollar incurred costs, that has to come from somewhere and it will unfortunately fall on the middle class once again.
-
Nobody, but nobody can tell me I HAVE to buy insurance. Don't you see how wrong that is? The ultimate goddamned nanny state intrusion into our lives. Who the fuck does the gov think they are, anyway? It's bad enough they have to stick their nose into whether we put our kids into those ridiculous little seats in our cars, whether a kid has to look like a gladiator to ride a bike (when I was little I rode free like the wind. I scraped and fell and, you know what? I survived.) They're making our children turn into little pussies, fer chrissake.
And that's just the beginning. Drug laws, SEAT BELT laws (yeah, you can get a tiocket if you, as a thinking consenting adult choose not to wear a seat belt). I'm not a smoker, but now they're trying to ban smoking even in public places!
Where will it end???
FUCCCKKK!!!
goblin
-
i like this decision, the more people get pissed off the closer we get to a violent revolution
That's about the only good thing about it, yes.
goblin
-
You would have to do more than that to motivate Americans to get off the couch.
So if it ever came to that, the first thing the rebels should do is destroy cable/satellite television and the internet. Then you'll have hundreds of millions of blurry eyed Americans coming out of their homes, and you will never see a bloodier revolution than one of Americans missing the new Glee episode.
-
Congrats with setting the first step to becoming a normal country like the rest of the civilized world.
-
You would have to do more than that to motivate Americans to get off the couch.
So if it ever came to that, the first thing the rebels should do is destroy cable/satellite television and the internet. Then you'll have hundreds of millions of blurry eyed Americans coming out of their homes, and you will never see a bloodier revolution than one of Americans missing all the fucking porn we watch.
Fixed this for you ;D
I can imagine American cavalry units now days just being fatties in electronic scooters with French bread lances
-
It is just a hidden tax like inflation. Families and individuals that don't carry health insurance through a company are now going to be forced to shelling out hundreds a month for Government Health Insurance or otherwise face criminal charges.
How do you tell someone living on the streets or supporting a family on a fixed income that they now have to pay for something they may or may not use. Not to mention, if you've ever served and tried getting anything processed through a V.A. hospital -- it's a great example of how efficiently the government runs anything.
My grandpa has asked me to shoot him with his Army issue hand gun before taking him to the VA Hospital -- All they do is misdiagnose and shell out medications supplied by Big Pharma contracts to soldiers struggling with injury and psychological issues who end up abusing alcohol, using drugs and then committing suicide.
Check the current suicide rates for American Veterans. The numbers are astonishing and still climbing.
The problem is that the VA doesnt have enough money to operate properly and we have had thirty years of Republicons saying "god bless the troops" while cutting funding for treatment for returning vets.
alternatively when you look at TriCare its one of, if not THE best system of healthcare on the planet. Why Vets and the rest of us can't by into that is mind boggling.
Nobody, but nobody can tell me I HAVE to buy insurance. Don't you see how wrong that is? The ultimate goddamned nanny state intrusion into our lives. Who the fuck does the gov think they are, anyway? It's bad enough they have to stick their nose into whether we put our kids into those ridiculous little seats in our cars, whether a kid has to look like a gladiator to ride a bike (when I was little I rode free like the wind. I scraped and fell and, you know what? I survived.) They're making our children turn into little pussies, fer chrissake.
And that's just the beginning. Drug laws, SEAT BELT laws (yeah, you can get a tiocket if you, as a thinking consenting adult choose not to wear a seat belt). I'm not a smoker, but now they're trying to ban smoking even in public places!
Where will it end???
FUCCCKKK!!!
goblin
so tell me, you dont own or drive a car? I'm pretty sure every state compels you to buy auto insurance.
-
Barack Obama: the greatest president since Eisenhower, maybe even Truman
-
If you are capable of taking care of yourself you would not be in favor of Obama care, liking it just proves you are not an independent adult.
-
so tell me, you dont own or drive a car? I'm pretty sure every state compels you to buy auto insurance.
The thing is with Car Insurance -- it is a luxury (but necessity) to drive a vehicle. But everyone has the share the roads and you can royally fuck up someones day by damaging their property or injuring their body. Having insurance to cover any costs that you've inflicted upon another person is completely understandable and accepted.
No one shares my body, therefor I don't see the need to have to pay for health insurance. It is a risk reward situation that is governed (well not anymore) by the individual. Should I choose not to insure myself and eat right, exercise, maintain a cautious lifestyle and make good decisions then I am hedging my bet that I would not need to enter a hospital and saving my money. You can no longer do that, you still pay whether you use it or not.
My real beef is not with the actual Healthcare Reform -- it is the individual mandate that was deemed a Constitutional Tax and allowed to pass through with the Bill. The good part of the Bill is that, should you have the money and warrant to get insurance, you can no longer be denied by private sector companies for having previous health conditions.
And how the fuck do they plan on paying for this universal health coverage?
Print More Money (They are calling it digitizing now)
The growing money supply denominator will cause inflation; purchasing value of dollar decreases
Gas and food prices will go up to compensate the inflation whilst wages stay stagnant
Middle class will suffer even more and dip to lower classes and tax brackets
Less tax coming in means print (digitize) more money to continue governmental reach
Poverty conditions force families to subsidize financially where they can, majority of this will come from decreased quality of food
Growing children will be consuming chemically altered and processed food causing major health problems like obesity and its associated heart ailments
These young adults will need healthcare coverage
Progressive society is progressive
-
If you are capable of taking care of yourself you would not be in favor of Obama care, liking it just proves you are not an independent adult.
I am an independent adult taking care of myself and my wife and child. I pay for my health insurance and am glad that I have it. And I am in FULL favor of obamacare. The deadbeats that claim indigent at the ER and make my bill through the fucking roof will now need to get insurance from the government *at an affordable price* Boo Fucking Hooo!!
And let us take a look at obamacare. Hummm it looks like it was the plan Newt Gingrich presented during the Clinton Administration. Then Willard Romney imposed it in Massachusetts as a Dictator and When our lord satin (obama) signed into law it was EVIL
Congrats with setting the first step to becoming a normal country like the rest of the civilized world.
Thank You... and once we go to a single payer system that allows private insurance companies to extra special care, maybe we can stop stepping over the half dead people in the streets and start helping them.
Barack Obama: the greatest president since Eisenhower, maybe even Truman
I am still out to lunch on that one. Let me know when he gets rid of the Bush tax cuts.
-
What's with Americans (not all) having something against healthcare?
I really don't understand that. If it would be for free would it be better or at least acceptable?
Money is the only thing I consider as a negative. I guess I do some research now...
Nothing is free
food stamps are free
-
What's with Americans (not all) having something against healthcare?
I really don't understand that. If it would be for free would it be better or at least acceptable?
Money is the only thing I consider as a negative. I guess I do some research now...
Nothing is free
food stamps are free
Actually people who pay taxes pay for food stamps.
-
What's with Americans (not all) having something against healthcare?
I really don't understand that. If it would be for free would it be better or at least acceptable?
Money is the only thing I consider as a negative. I guess I do some research now...
Nothing is free
food stamps are free
I really need to start taking advantage of liberals mental deficiencies more. I think I will start with a free apple program. Everyone likes apples right? Okay, if you pay me $500 a month I will supply you with two free apples a month. It is win win, you get free apples and I get $500 !! The difference between my free apple program and the governments free programs is that the government has an army of armed thugs who force you to pay for all of your free shit, where as I can only hope you like free apples enough to pay $500 a month for them.
-
Actually people who pay taxes pay for food stamps.
well the IRS shouldnt exist, no one should pay for taxes, then they would be free!
society should just barter, you know.. i'll paint your lawn for a loaf of bread, you can unclog my refrigerator for drugs.. it'd be so much better then the MAN holding us back. ::)
-
Actually people who pay taxes pay for food stamps.
well the IRS shouldnt exist, no one should pay for taxes, then they would be free!
society should just barter, you know.. i'll paint your lawn for a loaf of bread, you can unclog my refrigerator for drugs.. it'd be so much better then the MAN holding us back. ::)
Your making yourself look really dumb with these exaggeration, you've made it clear you are a freeloader that cant survive without government assistance stop trying to paint the picture differently.
-
Barack Obama: the greatest president since Eisenhower, maybe even Truman
I hope you're being ironic, but I suppose you're not. The presidents you mentioned are two of the most militaristic and interventionist (not to mention savagely mass-murdering: remember the A-bombs on Japan?) in history, so yes, I guess obomber is in good company,.
goblin
-
Congrats with setting the first step to becoming a normal country like the rest of the civilized world.
You just don't ge it, do you? In all the rest of the "developed" countries, healthcare for all people living within their borders, whether citizens or not, is esentially, free. Here you have to pay through the nose, and with this monstrosity it will make already rich insurance companues incomparably richer, at the cost of the ordinary people.
And now, they will even FORCE you to hand over your meager incomes to these insurance companies. All this instead of a rational, state-funded medicare for all or single payer.
But the bottom line is, the medical costs in this country are so absolutely out of line that it's hard to think of a way to stabilize and decrease them. Medicine in the US is a for-profit scheme, and now it will be more so even. The trick would be to come up with some kind of cooperative system a la Mondragon, even though I know Mondragon is not a health care system. But something along those lines.
goblin
-
so tell me, you dont own or drive a car? I'm pretty sure every state compels you to buy auto insurance.
That's completely different, and it's the same old canard that gets dragged out when people run out of rational arguments. You do not HAVE to drive a car; you HAVE to have a physical body. Therein lies the difference.
'Nuff said.
goblin
-
Congrats with setting the first step to becoming a normal country like the rest of the civilized world.
it takes an extreme amount of cognitive dissonance to praise a government for using coercion to force you to buy something, with the threat of them effectively ending your life hanging over your head if you don't.
or maybe you're just a statist. i fucking hate statists...
The hyperbole in this claim is hilarious. Making you pay a tax = ending your life? Ok guy.
-
But the bottom line is, the medical costs in this country are so absolutely out of line that it's hard to think of a way to stabilize and decrease them. Medicine in the US is a for-profit scheme, and now it will be more so even. The trick would be to come up with some kind of cooperative system a la Mondragon, even though I know Mondragon is not a health care system. But something along those lines.
goblin
Although, the purpose of the mandate was to bring costs down. The insurance companies were complaining that without the mandate, they wouldn't be able to stay in business if they were forced to only insure the sick.
And to be fair, the individual mandate designed to bring costs down had not been implemented because everyone was waiting on yesterday's verdict. Now that it's been ruled constitutional, the implementation date of 2014 can go forward. Whether it actually brings costs down remains to be seen, but to rail against the ACA because of the high costs of premiums doesn't really make sense when the ACA has yet to be implemented.
-
Congrats with setting the first step to becoming a normal country like the rest of the civilized world.
You just don't ge it, do you? In all the rest of the "developed" countries, healthcare for all people living within their borders, whether citizens or not, is esentially, free. Here you have to pay through the nose, and with this monstrosity it will make already rich insurance companues incomparably richer, at the cost of the ordinary people.
And now, they will even FORCE you to hand over your meager incomes to these insurance companies. All this instead of a rational, state-funded medicare for all or single payer.
Here in Holland we pay for healthcare through taxes AND you are obliged to have a basic health insurance, if you do not have the basic insurance you'll get fined.
-
It's hard for Europeans to understand the US right mindset when it comes to this sort of stuff
For us, we just have our health care taken care of pretty much. and have done for a long while. It's been a part of the tax system and people just accept it. Therefore a lot of us think "why the fuck wouldn't they want that shit taken care of? Losing your house when you have cancer? FUCK THAT"
But the US aint had shit like that EVER.. and a lot of them see it as nanny-state politics and an inevitable tax increase, which it arguably is
-
I think Europeans are confused on how health insurance actually works(ed) in the US. For most, their health insurance is taken out of their check by their employer who most offer a variety of different programs with different premiums to fit the different needs of the employee. The employee doesn't pay the full premium, it's often vastly discounted to pay <25%, although most small businesses opt for some GHP or similar program that is usually a 50/50 split on the costs of the insurance, employee/employer. So in essence it is 'taken care of' in a manner just as easy as in many other countries.
Then you have those whose employers do not offer health insurance, and they have to seek out their own health insurance where some may pay lofty premiums, for others it offers the advantage of shopping around for the cheapest, best network, whatever they value most.
Many, usually younger <30 year old singles and especially males, opt to not even pay for health insurance even if their employer offers it because they value the ~$100 per month more and they rarely make doctor visits anyways. The risk is if they are in some sort of accident or get cancer then they will probably lose assets and at the very least be relying on tax payer funded government programs to bail them out.
And then we have those completely reliant on medical assistance programs paid for by our ever increasing taxes. While this program is meant to take care of say a single mother of 2 who works her ass off working 2 jobs, it's also abused by just as many people. My ex-girlfriends sister was a single mother who worked around 25 hours a week as a stripper, didn't report the majority of her income, and abused every government aid program out there including tax fraud by paying to report friends children as dependents on her taxes.
SO it's not that your health insurance is superior in that it's 'taken care of' for you, it's more that our health care system has the right to deny people for pre-existing conditions, cancer for example, that make it impossible for any health insurance company, who is a business trying to make money, to take them on and incur the millions of dollars of medical bills that will follow. And it's those that opt to not have insurance in the first place, and roll the dice, lose and end up costing tax payers.
I can see both sides of the argument, and have been on both sides myself as I went uninsured for a large part of my life and luckily it didn't bite me in the ass.
-
It is just a hidden tax like inflation. Families and individuals that don't carry health insurance through a company are now going to be forced to shelling out hundreds a month for Government Health Insurance or otherwise face criminal charges.
You seem to have a lot of misinformation in your misperceptions about the ACA. If you followed the ruling, you would know that those that don't pick up insurance will face a tax, not criminal charges. Sure, if you don't pay the tax penalty you're subject to charges just like if you don't pay any of your other taxes. But to claim that not buying health insurance leads directly to criminal charges is false and misleading. Also, where are you coming up with this "shelling out for Government Health Insurance" myth? Are you aware that there is no public option in the ACA? Kind of hard to shell out for something that's not even offered. The law keeps health insurance the uninsured are obligated to purchase confined to private sector insurers, which kind of explodes your whole argument about government run healthcare that simply doesn't exist.
How do you tell someone living on the streets or supporting a family on a fixed income that they now have to pay for something they may or may not use.
Someone on the street with no income isn't affected dude. Since the penalty is in the form of a tax, they certainly aren't going to pay it based on an income they don't have. They're probably already on medicaid as it is.
Fixed low income families with difficulty affording insurance will get tax credits that will make it affordable so they're better off with the law.
Not to mention, if you've ever served and tried getting anything processed through a V.A. hospital -- it's a great example of how efficiently the government runs anything.
My grandpa has asked me to shoot him with his Army issue hand gun before taking him to the VA Hospital -- All they do is misdiagnose and shell out medications supplied by Big Pharma contracts to soldiers struggling with injury and psychological issues who end up abusing alcohol, using drugs and then committing suicide.
Check the current suicide rates for American Veterans. The numbers are astonishing and still climbing.
Totally irrelevant dude. The ACA doesn't involve setting up a government run health insurance agency like the VA. Even if there was a public option, it wouldn't look anything like what your grandpa saw. It would be setup like medicare; a wildly popular and effective social entitlement program. But there's no public option, so it's useless to even go down that path.
Maybe you're opposed to the ACA because you're ignorant to what the law actually entails. Based on the mis-characterizations of the law made in your post, you definitely seem to be the victim of some really badly sourced misinformation. Either that or you're intentionally perpetuating bullshit, but I prefer you have the benefit of the doubt.
-
yes, because if you don't pay taxes you get hauled off to prison
Which is why the sane choose to pay taxes over incarceration.
If you have a problem with paying your taxes, that's a separate and bigger issue.
-
Shannon, if you have a problems with being forced to buy things you have big issues, maybe you should go to counseling.
*sarcasm*
-
Pay for my medical bills, because I sure as hell ain't
this is why we cant have nice things.
-
Pay for my medical bills, because I sure as hell ain't
this is why we cant have nice things.
Something about you screams conservative bible-thumping nigger hating hypocrisy and indoctrination.
-
Americans are weird
-
Theirs no conservatives on silkroad but theirs ass loads of hipster liberals that like to complain about how rich people are making them poor.
-
I think this vinny guy is just trolling. Retards running around and humping things? Are you serious? Also just because their are certain social services out their already does not mean more would be a good thing or that we want more or that we support the ones that currently exist.
-
I think this vinny guy is just trolling. Retards running around and humping things? Are you serious? Also just because their are certain social services out their already does not mean more would be a good thing or that we want more or that we support the ones that currently exist.
Ding-ding-ding. We have a winner. No shit I'm trolling. I get bored easily.
What else do you expect the retarded to do all day, play Scrabble? Around here there's a center for the mentally handicapped, and they're given a low paying job assembling some sort of product and the company takes a loss because the work force is comprised of retards, and they require constant supervision. That's Socialism.
-
Can a mod just ban this guy? This forum is half decent because of the lack of trolls people like vinny and nigerian prince123 just make this place annoying.
-
Maybe when they get arrested for possession of drugs and are sitting in a 6x6 foot cell they will realize they are not in the club.
Hey everyone who loves your government, you are committing the following felonies:
wire fraud
mail fraud
drug trafficking
conspiracy to traffic drugs
continuing criminal enterprise
RICO
countless violations of the Criminal Substances Act
and most likely under our wonderful President,
terrorism.
You awake yet sheep. BAAAAHHHH
-
Yeah.. because pissing off a conservative is a more serious offense here than scamming, shilling, or trying to buy poisons. I expect to be banned any minute now. :o
-
Socialism is as American as apple pie. ever heard of a Teacher, Fire Fighter, Police Officer, National Park. These things have pretty much been here since the founding of our country but yet we are subjected radical right wing morons that don't have a clue where most of our money goes.
-
Congrats with setting the first step to becoming a normal country like the rest of the civilized world.
it takes an extreme amount of cognitive dissonance to praise a government for using coercion to force you to buy something, with the threat of them effectively ending your life hanging over your head if you don't.
or maybe you're just a statist. i fucking hate statists...
Oh, I love that. I couldn'r make it padt the first page without replying. Thank you for my first sig line :)
And the next poster forgot to add, going backwards, Rosevelt, Hoover (very much an Obama-Bush repeat), Wilson, Lincoln, FUCKING Hamiliton (and his dirty fuck trick Constitution).
Hell, even Jefferson fell to statism when he wore the Ring of Mordor, but was at least honest enough to die in misery reflecting on what a sellout he had allowed himself to become.
Only one Frodo so far.....Ron Paul. Course he isn't actually wearing the ring.
All this talk about hidden taxes. True but irrelevant. It's piddling in comparison to the hidden redistributive taxation, in all it's facets, of inflationary currency.
Nope, this is more comparable with the TSA.....were going to put our hands on you, enjoy it, and hope you resist.
Violent revolution just pours gasoline on the fire. Look Egypt. It wasn't that violent, nothing like Syria, but it based on threats. And now they have been delivered, likely by the CIA, into a budding religious military dictatorship.
No, the answer is to laugh at them, ignore them, pay them no mind, no energy, no part of you will or your soul.
Your hate, pain, suffering, grief, resentment, and violent action is what they feed on.....the Autumn People.....
Be happy and never forget to laugh at them, even as they taser you for laughing at them at the airport, the FEMA camp or the forced vaccination clinics.
Be strong and others will too.
-
FEMA camps and vaccinations? REALLY? 9/11 conspiracies, FEMA camps and fucking vaccinations? I feel like I'm in that 'weird' part of youtube..
-
Congrats with setting the first step to becoming a normal country like the rest of the civilized world.
it takes an extreme amount of cognitive dissonance to praise a government for using coercion to force you to buy something, with the threat of them effectively ending your life hanging over your head if you don't.
or maybe you're just a statist. i fucking hate statists...
Oh, I love that. I couldn'r make it padt the first page without replying. Thank you for my first sig line :)
And the next poster forgot to add, going backwards, Rosevelt, Hoover (very much an Obama-Bush repeat), Wilson, Lincoln, FUCKING Hamiliton (and his dirty fuck trick Constitution).
Hell, even Jefferson fell to statism when he wore the Ring of Mordor, but was at least honest enough to die in misery reflecting on what a sellout he had allowed himself to become.
Only one Frodo so far.....Ron Paul. Course he isn't actually wearing the ring.
All this talk about hidden taxes. True but irrelevant. It's piddling in comparison to the hidden redistributive taxation, in all it's facets, of inflationary currency.
Nope, this is more comparable with the TSA.....were going to put our hands on you, enjoy it, and hope you resist.
Violent revolution just pours gasoline on the fire. Look Egypt. It wasn't that violent, nothing like Syria, but it based on threats. And now they have been delivered, likely by the CIA, into a budding religious military dictatorship.
No, the answer is to laugh at them, ignore them, pay them no mind, no energy, no part of you will or your soul.
Your hate, pain, suffering, grief, resentment, and violent action is what they feed on.....the Autumn People.....
Be happy and never forget to laugh at them, even as they taser you for laughing at them at the airport, the FEMA camp or the forced vaccination clinics.
Be strong and others will too.
+1
They have mastered the art of killing human beings.
They know how to defeat the enemy on the battlefield.
What they don't know how to fight is peace.
That is the only way to win.
SMILE WHILE YOU BLEED
-
He probably IS in the club. More social networking in play......
-
Exactly what I was thinking.
-
Congrats with setting the first step to becoming a normal country like the rest of the civilized world.
Agreed. Now if we can only do the same with our drug laws.
sdesu
-
Congrats with setting the first step to becoming a normal country like the rest of the civilized world.
Agreed. Now if we can only do the same with our drug laws.
sdesu
Considering Obama used to be a major stoner, I find the fact he won't address marijuana laws a hypocritical move. Obama was a bigger pothead than I am in highschool. Google 'smoking weed with Obama' for a cool article.
-
Congrats with setting the first step to becoming a normal country like the rest of the civilized world.
it takes an extreme amount of cognitive dissonance to praise a government for using coercion to force you to buy something, with the threat of them effectively ending your life hanging over your head if you don't.
or maybe you're just a statist. i fucking hate statists...
The hyperbole in this claim is hilarious. Making you pay a tax = ending your life? Ok guy.
yes, because if you don't pay taxes you get hauled off to prison
Point of clarification: In the case of the ACA, that doesn't apply. The way the statute is written, the IRS isn't given the same kind of enforcement powers to collect the penalty as it is with other kinds of taxes. They can't garnish your wages or put a lien on your house if you don't pay it.
This doesn't make the ACA any more palatable. It's still a sad day for liberty.
-
how is it enforced then? i am genuinely curious.
I'm not entirely sure of all the ways, but one thing that they can do is dock your income tax refund, if you're due one. But if you read Title 1, Section 1501(g) 2A (pages 319-320) it specifically states that there can't be any criminal prosecution or tax liens. It's sort of interesting, because it makes me wonder what kind of bureaucratic overhead is going to have to go into maintaining account balances of people who don't pay the penalty vs. people who owe taxes for other reasons.
Plus I'm sure that they will continue to add the traditional penalties and interest on to any unpaid amount, so your tax debt will just get larger and larger, and I am reasonably certain that if you owe back taxes to the IRS you can't qualify for certain government programs (student loans, maybe?). Rest assured they will find a way to enforce it. They always do.
-
Congrats with setting the first step to becoming a normal country like the rest of the civilized world.
Agreed. Now if we can only do the same with our drug laws.
sdesu
Considering Obama used to be a major stoner, I find the fact he won't address marijuana laws a hypocritical move. Obama was a bigger pothead than I am in highschool. Google 'smoking weed with Obama' for a cool article.
Yeah. This is one thing that is really pissing me off. Instead of being up front about it, he just dodges it. Like remember a few months ago when YouTube was allowing users to ask Obama a question, and the questions would be voted on by the people. There was one submitted by a LEAP member (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition), which received the most votes, by the way, and wasn't even allowed to be asked even though it beat all of the other questions.
I want to believe he's going to keep it hush hush until after the election, then be like "Yo motherfuckers, I'm still president, let's get fucked up." Unfortunately, and most likely, this isn't going to happen, but he needs to say something about it, he's seriously losing votes left and right because he won't man the fuck up and say something.
sdesu
-
I remember that incident. He was dodging questions like Mitt Romney. There's literally no other way to describe it but hypocritical. He was part of the "Choom gang", which is like Hawaiian for smoking weed. They hung out in a cool van and smoked Maui Wowie and shit. Anyone who calls Obama liberal should take a look at his drug policy. If he wants more votes he better address the issue instead of pretending folks aren't smoking weed.
-
The war on drugs has failed at keeping drugs off the streets, but it will continue because it make people rich. It doesn't matter how many gang members die in turf wars, how many people we imprison, how much propaganda gets shoved down out throats, or who did what whenever. The few politicians that have come out for legalization have shot their carers in the foot. No more big $$$ donors for them.
The cartels make the money extorting product from the farmers. The middle men make money from being a mule (jack ass). The dealers make their skim selling to us. The law enforcement and judicial system makes money during arrest seizures and fines. The bankers make money laundering the money from everyone. Politicians get their donations from pharmaceutical companies that don't want people to smoke weed instead they have hundreds of addictive substances to take their place.
So the more shit changes the more it stays the same
-
Dock your income tax refund? Would that be the income tax that you voluntarily send off every quarter?
Of course it's voluntary, with no coercion involved. In fact, I invite you to NOT send any in for a few years. I'm sure you will be fine.
Sarcasm aside, the coercive nature of the state's revenue streams very much underpin the coercive nature of this bill if it's enforcement mechanism is but a mere alteration to an existing coercion.
But that's just statism for you, no surprise to those who see it. Just as the "conservative" jumping ship should come as any surprise to anyone who has seen through the false one dimensional political dichotomy.
Actually, Milton Friedman, that "great champion of the free market" helped pull the greatest con job ever on the American people when he oversaw the implementation of employer withholding.
Think about it, how many dupes do you know (sorry if your a dupe, learn history and Austrian economics) who actually look forward to tax day?
Because they have used the government's interest free withholding as a substitute for self discipline by upping their withholding, and see the day of accounting as payoff day, instead of ripoff day as it really is.
When people have to sit down, figure out the complex code, do the math and then write a check they see it for what it is, coerced theft of both thier direct labor in doing the return and the fruits of their labor in the payment.
Yep, that,s some free market economist that would help set that brainfuck up.
-
Just wondering, how many people here actually think the POTUS really runs anything outside a few cabinet members who haven't hooked up with da money yet? They hold the guy prisoner and won't let him take a shit without them present.
-
Just wondering, how many people here actually think the POTUS really runs anything outside a few cabinet members who haven't hooked up with da money yet? They hold the guy prisoner and won't let him take a shit without them present.
I'd like you to know that Air Force One has a special port-a-potty that takes the President's shit back to America to be disposed of so it doesn't fall into enemy hands. Look it up.
-
You ought to know ;)
Enemy hands, that's a good one.
They send young boys with good intentions and bad judgement and a bunch of sociopaths who command them out to die to "protect our freedom".
Isn't it their privilege that's the main concern? You don't capture the pion, you capture the flag.
And if someone did slip in and present a real and present danger to THEM they would hand the keys to your soul over in an instant to save their sorry asses.
But then, the they I am talking about isn't the they really making shit happen. The top down org chart looks great on paper but it isn't for anything but show. Like the Queen of England.
-
Based on the first and last pages I skimmed over, ya'll aren't happy about ACA because it's ~forcing~ ya'll to buy health insurance. That's cool, whatever, and I do wish there was a way for people to opt out, but the reason for this is so that people can't refuse to get insurance and then when they get diagnosed with cancer, decide to buy insurance because of the elimination of "pre-existing conditions."
I for one am pretty fuckin' overjoyed that the ACA was upheld. First off, it requires private insurance plans to allow dependents to stay on their parents' insurance plans until they turn 26. It also completely eliminates the pre-existing conditions bullshit that insurance companies used to use in order to refuse to cover people with lifelong chronic conditions. It also bans companies from kicking sick people off their insurance and eliminates the annual and aggregate monetary limits that insurance companies placed on people. When I turned 21 and got kicked off my parents' insurance, I was still a student and I worked at a job that offered the shittiest insurance and only to full-time workers who'd been there for more than 9 months; they capped my hours at 35 hours a week so I couldn't get benefits. I've been diabetic and partially deaf since I was 2 and 13, so I couldn't even buy private insurance because nobody would cover me unless I paid more money than I even made in a month.
It's obviously got plenty of flaws, but for sick people, it's fucking fantastic. (And if you're one of those "survival of the fittest, if sick people can't take care of themselves then they deserve to die out", here's a preemptive "coolstorybro")
-
Based on the first and last pages I skimmed over, ya'll aren't happy about ACA because it's ~forcing~ ya'll to buy health insurance. That's cool, whatever, and I do wish there was a way for people to opt out, but the reason for this is so that people can't refuse to get insurance and then when they get diagnosed with cancer, decide to buy insurance because of the elimination of "pre-existing conditions."
Except that having the penalty/tax/whatever-the-fuck-it-is still doesn't prevent people from doing exactly that. The money that people will end up paying in penalties doesn't go into some kind of health care emergency fund. It doesn't go towards providing coverage for the uninsured. It doesn't get sent off to the insurance companies as incentive to lower premiums. In the end, it's just more money into the federal treasury (I think I saw the estimate at 4 billion USD per year) that they can squander as foolishly as they do the dollars they currently have.
-
All the more reason to quit your job or at least work under the table - better yet; more reason to sell drugs on SR. If you don't have a job, then they can't tax you/deduct anything from your paycheck. Good luck making me pay for health insurance when i don't have a job.
A person could essentially quit their job, then hide all their savings in bitcoins, and say they are bankrupt and get Obamacare.
-
oh, i forgot that there's the bourgeoisie type out there that cant live without their sportscars, vacation homes and yachts. the same type of people who'd usually rather see the sick die like flies than give up their 8th jaguar that just sits in their garage all year.
-
Shannon, if you have a problems with being forced to buy things you have big issues, maybe you should go to counseling.
*sarcasm*
You're still not getting it. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. The only people compelled to do anything at all are those who can afford insurance but choose not to purchase it, who are then taxed a relatively minor amount in accordance to their income. If you don't feel the federal government has the right to force you to pay taxes, then you've got far bigger issues than protesting a relatively measly tax penalty enforced in the ACA. But giving you the benefit of the doubt, I bet you already knew that and are just being disingenuous.
And just to be clear, imposition of a tax penalty based on a tiny percentage of actual income on those that can afford health insurance but refuse to buy it is not forcing them to do so and to claim that it is is just absurd, or reductio ad absurdum as they teach in logic 101.
-
Based on the first and last pages I skimmed over, ya'll aren't happy about ACA because it's ~forcing~ ya'll to buy health insurance. That's cool, whatever, and I do wish there was a way for people to opt out, but the reason for this is so that people can't refuse to get insurance and then when they get diagnosed with cancer, decide to buy insurance because of the elimination of "pre-existing conditions."
Except that having the penalty/tax/whatever-the-fuck-it-is still doesn't prevent people from doing exactly that. The money that people will end up paying in penalties doesn't go into some kind of health care emergency fund. It doesn't go towards providing coverage for the uninsured. It doesn't get sent off to the insurance companies as incentive to lower premiums. In the end, it's just more money into the federal treasury (I think I saw the estimate at 4 billion USD per year) that they can squander as foolishly as they do the dollars they currently have.
That the law doesn't prevent people from not getting insurance is hailed by proponents of individual liberty as demonstrating that the law in fact doesn't coerce individuals to purchase insurance if they don't want to. It's opponents of the ACA under the guise of civil libertarianism that like to refer to it as being a dark day for liberty.
And you do realize that taxes can be used more efficiently than as a way to generate revenue as a means to an end right? Taxes play the important role of creating incentives and disincentives all on their own and that was clearly the intent here. Additional incentive was given to those without it to obtain it under the common sense maxim that it's better to get something for your money than nothing at all. By simply stating that a tax penalty won't prevent people from not getting healthcare ignores the reality that it achieves its policy objective by encouraging the vast majority that can afford it to purchase it while preserving their individual right not to. So your specific claims that:
It doesn't go towards providing coverage for the uninsured. It doesn't get sent off to the insurance companies as incentive to lower premiums.
Are bogus in light of what taxes really are. It absolutely does achieve these things. Just not the way you imagine it, but better and more efficient.
-
i genuinely feel sorry for you, you've been so conditioned since birth to accept that the violent theft of one's income by the government is normal that you think anybody who disagrees either has issues or is fucking with you
lemme backtrack a little bit, why do you consider taxation to be moral?
Not at all. If you have a greater issue with taxation, I really don't have any issue. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I can understand it as a difference of opinion with credit to you that you remain consistent. Didn't mean to imply mental problems and regret it having come across that way. I'm always receptive to changing my stance based on empirical evidence and the strength of ideas. To treat different or unconventional ideas with hostility is indefensible and any efforts I make to engage in spirited debate should never be confused with a personal attack. The issue I was trying to flesh out was those in opposition to the ACA's tax penalty from those who don't have a problem with taxation otherwise as IMO that represents the height of hypocrisy.
-
It has one flaw, the same flaw that is at the root of taxation....it isn't voluntary. If it isn't voluntary then that only leaves coerced.
Law means violence period. The only just law is law used for the purpose of allowing the individual to employ group assistance in securing his natural right to self defense of his property. His body is nothing but an item on the list of things that are his property mind you, perhaps the highest on the list most times but still just property.
All rights are property rights. Your human rights are rights to protect the property that is your human body.
So any law that violates your right to have property and have it unmolested by others against your will is unjust law and therefore illegitimate.
It may be true that force wins when put to the test but it does not change the true nature of just and unjust law.
Most would agree that it is unjust if a person came up to you and attacked you and took your property. Or commanded any action of your body that you didn't agree to.
Or prohibited any action you might take that could not be proved to violate the property of any other. The reason we are here.
Most would agree that if 10 people came up and did the same thing that you would have been assaulted, robbed or enslaved by a violent gang of criminals.
How many people does it take for a right that an individual does not possess to suddenly appear out of a vacuum?
Does not nearly every democratic government on Earth claim that it's power come from the people?
How can it have any power no person ever had to transfer to it?
Government is violence. It makes it's living parasitically from the efforts of others. In democracy it expands as far as it can.It will crash eventually, it has to by it's very nature.
It hinders the creation of wealth hugely while hypocritically claiming to be preserving it. It does so by taking from creators and giving to consumers. These are the promises that must be to gain consent to be ruled and the root of the expansion and inevitable collapse.
The numbers don't lie, your grandparents had far greater purchasing power and savings than you do...on average or even far above average.
In days of Kings at least there was an honesty in this and the King may have even taken care of the kingdom the way a farmer wouldn't rape his crops. Or when not the blame was clear.
Now we have revolving door dictatorships where the incentive has been created to rape and pillage as much as they can while they can because their time is short. This from the guys on the stage at least, the crew backstage is really directing the show and maintaining it so that the show can go on.
They did not create society, it spontaneously generated out of the benefits of working together. They don't maintain it either, other than the part of it which is their own racket, they feed on it until it crashes and then point fingers at the one constant in the human equation, the only thing that never changed.....greed.
Greed doesn't vary, only the collected power to express it does and the variance of that power can be indexed to the rise and fall of prosperity over time. Greed can't be indexed to anything because it is a constant distributed amongst the populace.
Self interest is hard wired into all life born into the realities of scarcity and the concurrent need to consume or die. Even the suicidal act in self interest, often thought the most self centered act possible.
The smallest amount of research with these facts in mind will tell vast stories as long as you ignore the official propaganda and draw your own conclusions. You have to be self honest first, especially if you gain from the plunder of the State. I do, but self honesty more important, the truth is more important.
But greed is the scapegoat, just law is but another victim and individual liberty is plowed aside to allow for more centralization of power, more EXPRESSION of greed to be made possible while drawing the worst of the worst towards it. Greed seeks power and if power exists in a nice package greed will control it. Just law be dammed.
And the proles cheer the whole thing on because they won't admit their own jealousy. They enable the whole thing by laying down their liberty for the promise of another man's sweat so they don't have to try so hard themselves, or admit failure.
-
I really need to start taking advantage of liberals mental deficiencies more. I think I will start with a free apple program. Everyone likes apples right? Okay, if you pay me $500 a month I will supply you with two free apples a month. It is win win, you get free apples and I get $500 !! The difference between my free apple program and the governments free programs is that the government has an army of armed thugs who force you to pay for all of your free shit, where as I can only hope you like free apples enough to pay $500 a month for them.
Wow man this is a very stupid ass way to think about it.
The value of your health simply can't be compared with the value of two fucking apples. Plus, you are providing apples consistently, however for health care, you may only need to get a check up once every few months. Plus, the cost of Health Care will vary depending on what needs to be addressed. Also, how can you insure someone for Apples? You do realise that your Please don't be christian with your way of thinking. :)
The problem with Obamacare in the US is that it shouldn't be an insurance to begin with. It should be nothing more than a Public Health Care SYSTEM. Private Health Care may include Insurance, but actually insuring it will cost a lot of money. For example: We spent trillions of US Dollars on Swine Flu globally. Now imagine insuring that, and providing for all the people that fell sick to it.
If it is only a Public Health Care System the costs will go down substantially. Australian "Medicare" (Our public health system) incures a tax levy of 1.5%. If you're earning around 200k p.a., your Medicare Levy increases by 1.0% to 2.5%. The Medicare Levy provides: Free Checkups at all registered clinics (there could be a clinic only for people with Private Health Insurance), Free Public Hospital (but then they pick the doctor). Of course, you can opt not to get Medicare, but once you have it, you can't really get rid of it because you're in that system forever lol
edited because i gave wrong information somewhere here :)
:-\ TLDR: america is still doing it wrong.
-
I haven't read any of this thread, but I just wanted to toss in that ACA LITERALLY saved my life. Without it, I wouldn't have been able to afford the care that saved my life. I'm not the only one, and I know of a half dozen people that died before it could be passed that could have easily been saved.
I'll read the thread and respond to any other bits I find interesting in a bit.
-
It has one flaw, the same flaw that is at the root of taxation....it isn't voluntary. If it isn't voluntary then that only leaves coerced.
Bullshit dude. It is voluntary, because as I mentioned already if you don't want to buy health insurance you have the option of paying the tax. Paying an affordable tax penalty that comes to a fraction of your income is NOT depriving you of your life or liberty and is therefore NOT coercion. So the rest of your rambling diatribe was utterly irrelevant.
-
I haven't read any of this thread, but I just wanted to toss in that ACA LITERALLY saved my life. Without it, I wouldn't have been able to afford the care that saved my life. I'm not the only one, and I know of a half dozen people that died before it could be passed that could have easily been saved.
I'll read the thread and respond to any other bits I find interesting in a bit.
And this is why we need a better healthcare system.We have only started to reform the system that consumed 1/3 of Americas GDP but at least we have started. Too many people have died without health insurance that could have been save with preventive care. Hell even one of Ron Paul's top campaign people died leaving the hospital holding a huge amount of the bill unpaid. And how does that get recovered hummmm.... It's passed on to the paying patients with insurance.
If you work then you already pay for medicare and medicaid, it time to pay a little more and let everyone benefit. We need to work towards a single payer base line with optional insurance picking up the rest.
-
It is voluntary, because as I mentioned already if you don't want to buy health insurance you have the option of paying the tax.
slavery is voluntary, if you don't want to be executed you have the option of going to work
Interesting how you conveniently omitted the last part of what I said:
Paying an affordable tax penalty that comes to a fraction of your income is NOT depriving you of your life or liberty and is therefore NOT coercion.
So your choice of analogies claiming slavery as voluntary because you have the choice of execution or working is irrelevant since that is a choice between being deprived of your life and being deprived of your liberty.
And like I said, the choice between paying a tax that amounts to a small fraction of your income and buying health insurance does not amount to a choice between life and liberty. If you think it is, then we have a difference of opinion where I believe yours to be unconventional and quite extreme.
-
I don't understand - in Australia, all citizens are entitled to go to a hospital and have any treatment that they require for absolutely nothing. That's how it should be. All people should have the right to be healthy regardless of how much money they have. Is that not a basic right? If there are people forgoing medical treatment and living in misery because they have to chose between rent and a life saving operation, is something in the system not fucked? So why is everyone in America complaining about healthcare? I find it fucking obscene when I see literal fat cats on TV spluttering about healthcare when they're not the ones who need it!
Nobody, but nobody can tell me I HAVE to buy insurance. Don't you see how wrong that is?
And that's just the beginning. Drug laws, SEAT BELT laws (yeah, you can get a tiocket if you, as a thinking consenting adult choose not to wear a seat belt). I'm not a smoker, but now they're trying to ban smoking even in public places!
So on the one hand you think that you shouldn't have to pay tax for someone else's healthcare, yet on the other hand you don't think that you shouldn't have to wear a seatbelt? Don't you understand, the government only cares about seatbelts because it costs them money when your dumb ass gets into a crash and has to be taken to hospital. So everyone else is paying for your decision to not wear a belt.
-
i think we have an irreconcilable difference in viewpoints, i view taxation as theft, it presumes that a government leveraging its monopoly on force has a higher claim to my property than i do, you see it as all right to assist the needy
I know we have irreconcilable differences. Whereas you view taxation as theft, I view it as part of a social contract in exchange for services. What gives you the right to a higher claim to your property over anyone else that allows you to forcibly prevent anyone else from using it? If you accept the government's power to enforce your higher claim to that property then I'm not sure how you can view property tax as theft. And if you don't view property tax as theft, then it doesn't sound like you view taxation as theft, just taxation that you don't like as theft.
sure this health care reform bill has good intentions at heart but like all other things it's being financed by theft. why does the needs of one person (health care which they can't afford) constitute a moral debt or lien on the property of someone else? this line of thinking is maliciously inimical to the very foundations of freedom. i'm very much a fan of freedom, and not so much of the government which is trying to steal from people like us and throw them in prison :)
Again, it's the difference of thinking of taxes in terms of a social contract of payment in exchange of services as opposed to taxes you don't like as theft. As you said, irreconcilable differences. ;)
-
i think we have an irreconcilable difference in viewpoints, i view taxation as theft, it presumes that a government leveraging its monopoly on force has a higher claim to my property than i do, you see it as all right to assist the needy
sure this health care reform bill has good intentions at heart but like all other things it's being financed by theft. why does the needs of one person (health care which they can't afford) constitute a moral debt or lien on the property of someone else? this line of thinking is maliciously inimical to the very foundations of freedom. i'm very much a fan of freedom, and not so much of the government which is trying to steal from people like us and throw them in prison :)
Here is a list of countries that do not tax
Andorra
Bahamas
Brunei
Kuwait
Maldives
Monaco
Nauru
Oman
Qatar
United Arab Emirates
Vanuatu
America is a free country so you are free to leave at any time. Go to one of those countries and let me know how well you get treated. The only countries that are considered rich or civilized have nationalize oil industries. And if you think taxes are considered theft the how does the oil companies that had a stake in the that country feel after they nationalized the industry.
-
I know we have irreconcilable differences. Whereas you view taxation as theft, I view it as part of a social contract in exchange for services.
imho the "social contract" argument is based on the false premise that "society" as a whole has a right to coerce consent to debts as a condition for being "allowed" to be a member of the overall society
It's not coercion since you have the right to leave at anytime and emigrate elsewhere. You therefore choose to be a member of this society. Like I was saying, we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion because while you see taxation as coercive consent to debts I see it as a payment for services. I'm not always going to agree with every tax I end up paying, but I accept that as a willing tradeoff of living in a free society where there's necessarily going to be differences of opinions to mine as to how government spends my tax dollars.
a society is just a group of people who interact, it has no more rights or powers than does any one of its members. unless some individual member of a society has the right to coerce other members of the society to agree to conditions in exchange for membership in the society, then it can't be that the society as a whole has any such right
Again, it's not coercion when you can bail. And by choosing to be here you're also choosing to enjoy government services even if you think it's immoral to pay for them. I don't see you acknowledging that there are benefits to participating in society that need to be paid for somehow.
now this last part is just me being a pedantic asshole :P but the "social contract" isn't even a contract at all. at no time is anybody ever told the conditions of the "social contract" to which they must agree, at no time are individuals ever asked to agree to this alleged contract. the alleged "social contract" is nothing more than a blank check drawn on the life, liberty and property of the population that those in power can cash in at any amount that suits them, at any time, again and again
That's because it's implied. You participate in a society and enjoy its benefits, you're going to be taxed to pay for those benefits. If you walk into a restaurant and eat its food, bail on the tab, then claim when men with guns show up to arrest you for a dine and dash that at no point was it explained to you what the prices were for the food you ordered and at no point did you sign an explicit contract agreeing to payment for food ... well your stance is not going to garner much sympathy.
-
It's not coercion since you have the right to leave at anytime and emigrate elsewhere. You therefore choose to be a member of this society.
see what i said above, just because i can leave doesn't mean the impetus that made me leave is moral
Irrespective of the morality of the impetus, because you have a choice it can't be considered coercion.
also, the "you can leave" option is gonna become less and less possible, check out the un's plans for world carbon taxes, world sales taxes, worldwide airline taxes, etc. - http://ca.news.yahoo.com/un-calls-billionaires-tax-help-worlds-poor-211640656.html
Well if that's the case, you better get on it then. :)
i do pay my taxes now so i might as well use the government-provided benefits i'm being forced to pay for, what's wrong with that? as an aside, i can't think of one government-provided benefit that i utilize besides public roads.
Are you serious? That's the only benefit of government you can think of from living in a stable society? I'm sure you're more capable than that. As a thought experiment, try brainstorming what other public service benefits you enjoy even if not directly. For instance, I'll point out that if the healthcare bill does in fact lower costs as intended while making insurance companies unable to deny for preexisting conditions you will get residual benefit from it. As a thought experiment, try and figure out why.