Silk Road forums
Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: munkies on March 21, 2013, 12:22 am
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Just think about it. It meets all criteria for being a delusion:
1. Certainty - Religious people are absolutely convinced in the existence of the God of the bible, that the bible is 100% true and that they will go to heaven if they follow their god or to hell if they don't.
2. incorrigibility - no matter how much science advances and proof is given to them, it will not affect their beliefs. Even though evolution makes a lot more sense than the bible at least, even with the great number of contradictions found in the bible, even with significant proof that the universe is much older than 6000 years, they still continue to trust that the bible is the absolute truth and god is their only salvation.
3.impossibility or falsity of content - let's think about it. Most events described in the bible are bizarre and implausible to say the least. Just open the bible to any page you like and I guarantee some law of physics or common sense will be shat upon. Also, many characters of the bible seem to have severe cases of mental disorders.
So many people suffer from this delusion that it has become normal. If I tell you, with awful conviction that I flew to the sun and came back, everyone will say I am mentally ill. Yet, some people speak about the resurrection of Christ like it's the fucking Pythagorean theorem and no one cares to diagnose them. That's why I hate religion so much. It's like common sense becomes irreversibly shredded when it comes to religion.
It's true that no one can prove or disprove the existence of god, yet unquestionably trusting content from an old book just because we've been told to do so since childhood is just plain stupidity. Science is our only source of certainty, because every scientific discovery requires significant proof before it becomes accepted.
I know for sure that if I drop a glass from 10 ft it will fall and break, but how can I be so arrogant as to claim I know that if I follow the word of god I will go to heaven?
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I'm sure that I for one, along with most people on the forum here will agree with you wholeheartedly. Although I do believe in spirituality in some unlabeled and purely personal sense.. organized religion is nothing more than a tool to rule those too weak to handle reality, and to abuse us who want to live for ourselves.
I just try not to worry about it too much. There isn't anything we can do or say to change these peoples minds.. just treat them as you would treat any retarded or psychotic individual.. for better or for worse. Negative reinforcement is definitely the way to go.
Its hard to reason with the deluded. At the end of the day they have to look at the universe around them and decide for themselves that their construct of a belief system is petty, ignorant, and often destructive to mankind.
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Religion, yes it is a delusion for the masses. Spirituality and the belief of God itself is absolutely not. Science looks everywhere but inside the human Spiritual body, and only in the physical. There are many realms to existence far deeper than the one we currently reside in. Those who cannot see beyond the physicality of life and realize that there is a far greater purpose to EVERYTHING in this universe, from a blade of grass to the largest tree. If you get stuck on the details of what true faith is, you will be lost in the nothingness that life is without God himself.
I am not a Christian therefore I am not offended by your comments. The truth is within all of us, and for some reason, some do not have the capability to see beyond their own eyes. It's a vicious cycle, and you will be forced to repeat it until you realize the one and only truth.
You come off with much pessimism and cynicism. Look at the beauty of life around you, look at the absolute perfection in everything that is created. Nothing happened by chance, and if you believe it did, you are far more deluded than those who believe in a man who elevated his consciousness to the point where he understood his purpose on this planet.
I hope I don't come off too strong, but the reality of it all is, Science, just like Religious has it's limitations. The Human spirit, that which gives us infinite life, is unlimited.
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Religion, yes it is a delusion for the masses. Spirituality and the belief of God itself is absolutely not. Science looks everywhere but inside the human Spiritual body, and only in the physical. There are many realms to existence far deeper than the one we currently reside in. Those who cannot see beyond the physicality of life and realize that there is a far greater purpose to EVERYTHING in this universe, from a blade of grass to the largest tree. If you get stuck on the details of what true faith is, you will be lost in the nothingness that life is without God himself.
I am not a Christian therefore I am not offended by your comments. The truth is within all of us, and for some reason, some do not have the capability to see beyond their own eyes. It's a vicious cycle, and you will be forced to repeat it until you realize the one and only truth.
You come off with much pessimism and cynicism. Look at the beauty of life around you, look at the absolute perfection in everything that is created. Nothing happened by chance, and if you believe it did, you are far more deluded than those who believe in a man who elevated his consciousness to the point where he understood his purpose on this planet.
I hope I don't come off too strong, but the reality of it all is, Science, just like Religious has it's limitations. The Human spirit, that which gives us infinite life, is unlimited.
Well said! that's a much better response then mine, I agree entirely.
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Religion, yes it is a delusion for the masses. Spirituality and the belief of God itself is absolutely not. Science looks everywhere but inside the human Spiritual body, and only in the physical. There are many realms to existence far deeper than the one we currently reside in. Those who cannot see beyond the physicality of life and realize that there is a far greater purpose to EVERYTHING in this universe, from a blade of grass to the largest tree. If you get stuck on the details of what true faith is, you will be lost in the nothingness that life is without God himself.
I am not a Christian therefore I am not offended by your comments. The truth is within all of us, and for some reason, some have not been the capability to see beyond their own eyes. It's a vicious cycle, and you will be forced to repeat it until you realize the one and only truth.
I completely agree with you. The human spirit is infinitely fascinating and science does and cannot touch it. The psychedelic experience for example, is a lot more than just lsd molecules binding to serotonin receptors. It just shows us there is more to our world than meets the eye.
However, organized religion is not about discovering who you are and exploring your mind, it's about strict rules and fixed ideas. Religions such as Christianity, Islam and Judaism teach us that we are pieces of shit and our only hope is the god of the bible. What they tell you is basically, praise the lord, don't question the bible, respect the commandments, go to church every Sunday, don't fuck outside marriage and you shall be forever happy and free and shit...but only after you die. You must live your life within a strict set of rules, while an almighty god,like a voyeur, watches your every move.
That's why I think organized religion is utter bullshit. I'm sick of JW fuckers ringing my bell every weekend with their stupid propaganda, or my baptist roommate telling me I should quit smoking weed and go to church. They are so convinced about what's what and who's who that they will never be able to find the truth. They claim to be humble, but in fact they're the worst possible breed of arrogant judgmental motherfuckers!
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If we didn't have religion and science was accepted worldwide then we'd be far more technically advanced than we are today. There would probably be a lot less people in the world due to contraception actually being ok to use so no families with 17 kids. And there probably have been less wars and defiantly less Crusades! They Maya would still be here <3
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I hope I don't come off too strong, but the reality of it all is, Science, just like Religious has it's limitations. The Human spirit, that which gives us infinite life, is unlimited.
How can someone compare the two since all scientific theories are verifiable? Faith is the excuse people give when they don't have evidence for their beliefs, so science has no use for it.
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I hope I don't come off too strong, but the reality of it all is, Science, just like Religious has it's limitations. The Human spirit, that which gives us infinite life, is unlimited.
How can someone compare the two since all scientific theories are verifiable? Faith is the excuse people give when they don't have evidence for their beliefs, so science has no use for it.
science and spirituality are complementary opposites, two sides of the same coin... in my opinion, we would have a much deeper understanding of reality if we could realize this.
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I hope I don't come off too strong, but the reality of it all is, Science, just like Religious has it's limitations. The Human spirit, that which gives us infinite life, is unlimited.
How can someone compare the two since all scientific theories are verifiable? Faith is the excuse people give when they don't have evidence for their beliefs, so science has no use for it.
Verification is relative. Years ago it was thought by mainstream science that 99.99% of an atom was empty space. This was their verification, yet no real proof to truly corroborate it. Like going into a dark room and coming to the conclusion that it's completely empty. Today we're in that same situation, the difference is that now the empty space is termed Dark Matter, and all important in the creation of everything we know, yet again there is no truly quantifiable way to observe it, but science still accepts it to be true. The Higgs Boson was thought to have been discovered at CERN, yet I can guarantee you absolutely none of those scientists who were present at the 'discovery' will tell you they saw a Boson with a gun pointed at their temple. Science will look and explore the Human body piece by piece and explain it's functions, but I'll be damned if they ever tell me why it's here, put together so harmoniously, and most importantly living, breathing, and talking.
Faith, or more specifically Spirituality, does not work by trial and error or delusions and theories. (Keeping specific religion out of the discussion) And that isn't to say science is completely deluded, but who can blame it when a majority of the universe continues to be immensely more complex than our limited scope of imagination deems it to be. Faith works on thinking of a higher level, on viewing the entire whole rather than the pieces that make it up. The simple fact that you're alive and breathing should make you ponder the fact that there might be someone or something behind this whole existence thing after all.
I suppose my over-arching point, as the wise moonflower had put it in a more simple fashion before me; had science and faith been synergized long ago, 'verification' would have far different interpretations. Science the means, faith the purpose. Paradoxical, yet perfect. Sure science can tell you all about the Big Bang and the relative speed at which space is expanding, but if you ask a scientist what the spark was that started it all and why, he'll walk away dumbfounded.
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It may be true that science has been unable, as yet, to answer the big questions. However, that doesn't give us license to fill in the gaps with hocus pocus and superstition. Discussing lifes big questions is like engaging in philosophy, but philosophy frozen and anchored to bronze aged Palestinian superstitious dogma which is underpinned by beliefs which arose at a time in human history when the wheelbarrow was an emerging technology. It's surely time to grow up and move on. The Bible bears all the hallmarks of its lowly origins in an illiterate desert region of the middle east and therefore needs to be continuously revised and re-imagined to make it relevant to the modern era. Read Leviticus and reflect on whether you are reading a timeless transcendent record of the word of god or...as I would postulate...the incoherent ramblings of fearful Palestinian desert dwellers. Reference the mandate for the slaughter of the Amalekites and Midianites, the bizarre and irrational dietary requirements, the tensions between the commandments (eg thou shalln't not kill) and the Levitican requirement to murder homosexuals, the objectification of women etc etc etc... Thank fuck it's man made and that not a fucking word of it is true.
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It may be true that science has been unable, as yet, to answer the big questions. However, that doesn't give us license to fill in the gaps with hocus pocus and superstition. Discussing lifes big questions is like engaging in philosophy, but philosophy frozen and anchored to bronze aged Palestinian superstitious dogma which is underpinned by beliefs which arose at a time in human history when the wheelbarrow was an emerging technology. It's surely time to grow up and move on. The Bible bears all the hallmarks of its lowly origins in an illiterate desert region of the middle east and therefore needs to be continuously revised and re-imagined to make it relevant to the modern era. Read Leviticus and reflect on whether you are reading a timeless transcendent record of the word of god or...as I would postulate...the incoherent ramblings of fearful Palestinian desert dwellers. Reference the mandate for the slaughter of the Amalekites and Midianites, the bizarre and irrational dietary requirements, the tensions between the commandments (eg thou shalln't not kill) and the Levitican requirement to murder homosexuals, the objectification of women etc etc etc... Thank fuck it's man made and that not a fucking word of it is true.
You have a stronger grasp of the bible than I do which is very apparent. I just think getting lost in debate whether or not the stories and miracles contained within that book ends up being entirely futile. I'm not a great believer in the Bible, although I will accept the fact that many of it's messages do carry profound truths which one can absolutely grow from.
I'm feeling like you're giving our ancestors far less credit than they deserve. Modern Human civilization has been present for far longer than our archaeologists would like the world to believe, indicated by intricate and unexplainable ruins throughout the world. Ruins such as Yonaguni in Japan, Puma Punku in Peru, Teotihuacan in central Mexico, even the Pyramids at Giza, these are all representations of incredibly advanced cultures beyond what we simply believed to be agrarian, barely having invented wheelbarrows as you eluded to. The great philosopher Plato even speaks of the great city of Atlantis beyond the pillars of Hercules. All truths muddled by the flow of time, and the agendas of the corrupt and powerful.
Many Millenia ago the real book of truth, the real bible may have contained the real information of the true origins of our civilization, but has long been dumbed down the line in order to control the masses. The real answers though, have been within us this entire time. The irony is that few people take the time to look there.
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It may be true that science has been unable, as yet, to answer the big questions. However, that doesn't give us license to fill in the gaps with hocus pocus and superstition. Discussing lifes big questions is like engaging in philosophy, but philosophy frozen and anchored to bronze aged Palestinian superstitious dogma which is underpinned by beliefs which arose at a time in human history when the wheelbarrow was an emerging technology. It's surely time to grow up and move on. The Bible bears all the hallmarks of its lowly origins in an illiterate desert region of the middle east and therefore needs to be continuously revised and re-imagined to make it relevant to the modern era. Read Leviticus and reflect on whether you are reading a timeless transcendent record of the word of god or...as I would postulate...the incoherent ramblings of fearful Palestinian desert dwellers. Reference the mandate for the slaughter of the Amalekites and Midianites, the bizarre and irrational dietary requirements, the tensions between the commandments (eg thou shalln't not kill) and the Levitican requirement to murder homosexuals, the objectification of women etc etc etc... Thank fuck it's man made and that not a fucking word of it is true.
You have a stronger grasp of the bible than I do which is very apparent. I just think getting lost in debate whether or not the stories and miracles contained within that book ends up being entirely futile. I'm not a great believer in the Bible, although I will accept the fact that many of it's messages do carry profound truths which one can absolutely grow from.
I'm feeling like you're giving our ancestors far less credit than they deserve. Modern Human civilization has been present for far longer than our archaeologists would like the world to believe, indicated by intricate and unexplainable ruins throughout the world. Ruins such as Yonaguni in Japan, Puma Punku in Peru, Teotihuacan in central Mexico, even the Pyramids at Giza, these are all representations of incredibly advanced cultures beyond what we simply believed to be agrarian, barely having invented wheelbarrows as you eluded to. The great philosopher Plato even speaks of the great city of Atlantis beyond the pillars of Hercules. All truths muddled by the flow of time, and the agendas of the corrupt and powerful.
Many Millenia ago the real book of truth, the real bible may have contained the real information of the true origins of our civilization, but has long been dumbed down the line in order to control the masses. The real answers though, have been within us this entire time. The irony is that few people take the time to look there.
We are all atheists. Religions come and go. We no longer believe in the sun god Ra, the Norse god Thor or Zeus, Mercury and Athena. We look with pity on those who had been gullible enough to believe these redundant gods, and yet so many of us still profess belief in the current gods. What we know about all these gods is that they have a limited shelf life. The gods we will believe in 1000 years from now will be entirely different from and incompatible with the gods we believe today.
It all points to an innate human need to believe that we will live beyond our deaths. The reason that we need to believe this is that we are far too arrogant a species to believe that our lives are as meaningless and insignificant as the beats, insects and microbes around us.
Well my friend, I've got news for you. Wake up and smell the coffee, because life is absurd and meaningless. However, we are lucky to be alive and should make the most of the opportunity by enjoying and helping others to enjoy the wonderous gift of existence.Make the most of it whilst you're alive because THERE IS NOTHING BUT BLACKNESS AFTER DEATH.
Voila! C'est tout.
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I completely agree. I personally do not believe in a higher power (prefer to call him this rather than god) but I have no problem with anybody that does. I do have a problem with religion though. Religion teaches that god creates everyone unique, but if you don't do exactly what religion tells you to do you are going to hell. What is the point of being unique then? I really do think religion is quite evil. Religion controls, brainwashes, and bankrupts people.
NO RELIGION, KNOW PEACE
KNOW RELIGION, NO PEACE
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It may be true that science has been unable, as yet, to answer the big questions. However, that doesn't give us license to fill in the gaps with hocus pocus and superstition. Discussing lifes big questions is like engaging in philosophy, but philosophy frozen and anchored to bronze aged Palestinian superstitious dogma which is underpinned by beliefs which arose at a time in human history when the wheelbarrow was an emerging technology. It's surely time to grow up and move on. The Bible bears all the hallmarks of its lowly origins in an illiterate desert region of the middle east and therefore needs to be continuously revised and re-imagined to make it relevant to the modern era. Read Leviticus and reflect on whether you are reading a timeless transcendent record of the word of god or...as I would postulate...the incoherent ramblings of fearful Palestinian desert dwellers. Reference the mandate for the slaughter of the Amalekites and Midianites, the bizarre and irrational dietary requirements, the tensions between the commandments (eg thou shalln't not kill) and the Levitican requirement to murder homosexuals, the objectification of women etc etc etc... Thank fuck it's man made and that not a fucking word of it is true.
You have a stronger grasp of the bible than I do which is very apparent. I just think getting lost in debate whether or not the stories and miracles contained within that book ends up being entirely futile. I'm not a great believer in the Bible, although I will accept the fact that many of it's messages do carry profound truths which one can absolutely grow from.
I'm feeling like you're giving our ancestors far less credit than they deserve. Modern Human civilization has been present for far longer than our archaeologists would like the world to believe, indicated by intricate and unexplainable ruins throughout the world. Ruins such as Yonaguni in Japan, Puma Punku in Peru, Teotihuacan in central Mexico, even the Pyramids at Giza, these are all representations of incredibly advanced cultures beyond what we simply believed to be agrarian, barely having invented wheelbarrows as you eluded to. The great philosopher Plato even speaks of the great city of Atlantis beyond the pillars of Hercules. All truths muddled by the flow of time, and the agendas of the corrupt and powerful.
Many Millenia ago the real book of truth, the real bible may have contained the real information of the true origins of our civilization, but has long been dumbed down the line in order to control the masses. The real answers though, have been within us this entire time. The irony is that few people take the time to look there.
Nice post :)
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It may be true that science has been unable, as yet, to answer the big questions. However, that doesn't give us license to fill in the gaps with hocus pocus and superstition. Discussing lifes big questions is like engaging in philosophy, but philosophy frozen and anchored to bronze aged Palestinian superstitious dogma which is underpinned by beliefs which arose at a time in human history when the wheelbarrow was an emerging technology. It's surely time to grow up and move on. The Bible bears all the hallmarks of its lowly origins in an illiterate desert region of the middle east and therefore needs to be continuously revised and re-imagined to make it relevant to the modern era. Read Leviticus and reflect on whether you are reading a timeless transcendent record of the word of god or...as I would postulate...the incoherent ramblings of fearful Palestinian desert dwellers. Reference the mandate for the slaughter of the Amalekites and Midianites, the bizarre and irrational dietary requirements, the tensions between the commandments (eg thou shalln't not kill) and the Levitican requirement to murder homosexuals, the objectification of women etc etc etc... Thank fuck it's man made and that not a fucking word of it is true.
You have a stronger grasp of the bible than I do which is very apparent. I just think getting lost in debate whether or not the stories and miracles contained within that book ends up being entirely futile. I'm not a great believer in the Bible, although I will accept the fact that many of it's messages do carry profound truths which one can absolutely grow from.
I'm feeling like you're giving our ancestors far less credit than they deserve. Modern Human civilization has been present for far longer than our archaeologists would like the world to believe, indicated by intricate and unexplainable ruins throughout the world. Ruins such as Yonaguni in Japan, Puma Punku in Peru, Teotihuacan in central Mexico, even the Pyramids at Giza, these are all representations of incredibly advanced cultures beyond what we simply believed to be agrarian, barely having invented wheelbarrows as you eluded to. The great philosopher Plato even speaks of the great city of Atlantis beyond the pillars of Hercules. All truths muddled by the flow of time, and the agendas of the corrupt and powerful.
Many Millenia ago the real book of truth, the real bible may have contained the real information of the true origins of our civilization, but has long been dumbed down the line in order to control the masses. The real answers though, have been within us this entire time. The irony is that few people take the time to look there.
We are all atheists. Religions come and go. We no longer believe in the sun god Ra, the Norse god Thor or Zeus, Mercury and Athena. We look with pity on those who had been gullible enough to believe these redundant gods, and yet so many of us still profess belief in the current gods. What we know about all these gods is that they have a limited shelf life. The gods we will believe in 1000 years from now will be entirely different from and incompatible with the gods we believe today.
It all points to an innate human need to believe that we will live beyond our deaths. The reason that we need to believe this is that we are far too arrogant a species to believe that our lives are as meaningless and insignificant as the beats, insects and microbes around us.
Well my friend, I've got news for you. Wake up and smell the coffee, because life is absurd and meaningless. However, we are lucky to be alive and should make the most of the opportunity by enjoying and helping others to enjoy the wonderous gift of existence.Make the most of it whilst you're alive because THERE IS NOTHING BUT BLACKNESS AFTER DEATH.
Voila! C'est tout.
Well sir, I must respectfully disagree, but I will leave it there because our views are both on opposite ends of the spectrum. Where one sees chaos, another order. Where one sees no meaning, another purpose. As absurd as life may be on a day to day basis, believe me I get enough of it, it has far more meaning than anything else at this current juncture of my existence, and I see it's blessings but most importantly it's teachings each and everyday. :)
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I have pondered about religion for many years and the only answer I can come up with is this.
If you look at most civilizations on this planet, both current and past, there is a belief in some kind of God.
When we look at religious beliefs there are many similarities.
How is it that people all over the world, of different cultures and different faiths can have so many similarities?
Maybe there is a literal God and maybe there isnt, but the fact that there are so many believers and so many similarities suggests that there is something in the human experience that leads us to think in the same way.
It may be the case that there isnt a literal God, but thats not to say that belief in God is pointless.
Philosophers seem to struggle with the concept of morality. Some say that morality can exist without a God, others argue that without belief in God there can be no morality. If anyone has ever looked at Game Theory then form a purely scientific stance, there is no such thing as morality as Game Theory has people making the choices which best suit themselves and has little regard for others.
I watched a series of lectures from the Dali Lama (im not a Buddist but like to hear interesting people speak).
He said something very interesting and that was that in Eastern philosophy (he was primarily speaking of Indian philosophy) seems at loggerheads to Western science. He said that in the west we try and view the human mind through science, but the science of psychiatry is about 100 years old, its in its infancy and therefore pales when compared to eastern philosophy (which is less scientific) but has been around for thousands of years.
Psychiatry will catch up, but it will take time. Part of the reason for this is that the human mind is too complex for standard scientific methodology. Science seeks to minimize variables, the problem with the human mind is that two people can witness the same event and yet have two different interpretations of it.
What this means is that science isnt a great too for understanding how different things make us feel inside whereas religious philosophy is all about how we feel inside and little to do with the world around us.
I suppose this is why an explanation of love is nothing like feeling love.
If you look at western civilization right now, we are becoming more and more agnostic and at the same time society seems to be falling apart. Maybe we, as human beings, need a belief in a higher power and a fear or retribution in the afterlife in order to focus up on living good lives.
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I believe people are fundamentally religious. People need something 'bigger' than themselves to believe in.
However, it's the 21st century and traditional religion is dying a slow death. The word 'god' is outdated today.
People take psychedelics to have a religious experience. To lose all sense of self is essentially to be reunited with god. But putting it in such terms is very unfashionable.
To summarise: no, gods (note the plural) do not actually exist. But people need to believe in a god, even if they call it by a different name. It's irrational but but pragmatic.
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I've studied Judaism, Islam and Christianity (Although I was born and raised into one of these, I denounced my religion years ago) in fairly great detail and so the more I learned, the more I became skeptical of their teachings. I think it's great that it's primarily religious organizations that help the needy and are generally 'good people', however their belief system is something that I can never wrap my head around. Is there a higher power? Possibility. But what was written some thousands of years ago cannot be considered valid-at all. Some people like to think that everything has some sort of significance outside of their control, which is what these organizations want them to believe, but it isn't. If you get a good job, that was your own doing. If you get into a auto accident, that was your fault or the fault of another human being. If you win something, that was pure luck. If you get cured of a disease, this was medicine and science that most likely contributed to this. However, people like to use the phrases like "Praise God, he blessed me with xxxx" or something of the sort. It makes me sick to my stomach.
And then there's fuckers out there like the infamous Televangelist Peter Popoff and his 'ministry'. He has been stealing money from people for years, even been exposed for this (just check out youtube) and yet he still continues to exploit the desperate through his tv show late night on networks like BET. More money has been taken from the people by religious organizations than any other institution in the world, yet it's something that we're usually exposed to from birth and we have no control over this until we reach a certain age where we can think for ourselves.
And then there's the holidays. Christmas, in particular. What in the fuck? This is supposed to be about the birth of Christ, the 'lord and Savior', which is fine and dandy-but then everyone goes batshit crazy buying useless junk for family and friends and having their children go to the local mall to sit on some fat dude's lap while he tells him all the shit they want. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything relevant to any church, and in my opinion just mocks them. That's the one aspect of JW that I appreciate, they don't honor any sort of holiday-religious or otherwise which isn't a bad thing-although their teachings are also very much flawed.
I'd encourage people to become one with themselves-to be spiritual and look from within for answers rather than give themselves up to an organization that is based upon absolute shit.
Maybe I'm taking a shot in the dark with what I just typed, but just some scattered thoughts I had that I thought I'd share as I wait for SR to come back up. Interesting topic though, I'll stay scribed to this for a while.