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Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: sellingstuff on December 07, 2011, 10:38 am

Title: MDMA - New Nuerotoxicity Study (Feb 2011)
Post by: sellingstuff on December 07, 2011, 10:38 am
Just thought I'd share this . . . .

In 2011, a paper examining an unusual group of MDMA-only users (most people who try and use Ecstasy/MDMA have also use other recreational drugs) found that the MDMA-only users "showed no signs of cognitive impairment attributable to drug use: ecstasy use did not decrease mental ability."

15 February 2011

The drug known as ecstasy has been used by 12 million people in the United States alone and millions more worldwide.  Past research has suggested that ecstasy users perform worse than nonusers on some tests of mental ability.  But there are concerns that the methods used to conduct that research were flawed, and the experiments overstated the cognitive differences between ecstasy users and nonusers.

In response to those concerns, a team of researchers has conducted one of the largest studies ever undertaken to re-examine the cognitive effects of ecstasy, funded by a $1.8 million grant from the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) and published today in the journal Addiction. The study was specifically designed to minimize the methodological limitations of earlier research.

In contrast to many prior studies, ecstasy users in the new study showed no signs of cognitive impairment attributable to drug use:  ecstasy use did not decrease mental ability.

Lead author John Halpern is quick to point out that this group of researchers is not the first to identify limitations in prior studies of ecstasy users.  “Researchers have known for a long time that earlier studies of ecstasy use had problems that later studies should try to correct.  When NIDA decided to fund this project, we saw an opportunity to design a better experiment and advance our knowledge of this drug.”

The researchers fixed four problems in earlier research on ecstasy.  First, the non-users in the experiment were members of the "rave" subculture and thus repeatedly exposed to sleep and fluid deprivation from all-night dancing -- factors that themselves can produce long-lasting cognitive effects.

Second, participants were screened for drug and alcohol use on the day of cognitive testing, to make sure all participants were tested while ‘clean’.

Third, the study chose ecstasy users who did not habitually use other drugs that might themselves contribute to cognitive impairment.

Finally, the experiment corrected for the possibility that any cognitive impairment shown by ecstasy users might have been in place before they started using the drug.

The resulting experiment whittled 1500 potential participants down to 52 carefully chosen ecstasy users, whose cognitive function was compared against 59 closely-matched non-users, with tests administered at several stages to make sure participants were telling the truth about their drug and alcohol use.

So does this mean that ecstasy really is the risk-free, hangover-free, miracle drug that lets young ravers and gamers party all weekend without having to pay the price?  Says Halpern, “No.  Ecstasy consumption is dangerous:  illegally-made pills can contain harmful contaminants, there are no warning labels, there is no medical supervision, and in rare cases people are physically harmed and even die from overdosing. It is important for drug-abuse information to be accurate, and we hope our report will help upgrade public health messages.  But while we found no ominous, concerning risks to cognitive performance, that is quite different from concluding that ecstasy use is ‘risk-free’."
Title: Re: MDMA - New Nuerotoxicity Study (Feb 2011)
Post by: awesome1126 on December 07, 2011, 11:37 am
Beautiful. This is the kind of research that drugs in the US need to have done on them.
Title: Re: MDMA - New Nuerotoxicity Study (Feb 2011)
Post by: anton on December 07, 2011, 12:19 pm
Personally MDMA leaves me angry/depressed for about 5 days after i have 1 night on it. not my favorite drug by far. i cannot handle the serotonin depletion :(
Title: Re: MDMA - New Nuerotoxicity Study (Feb 2011)
Post by: E=daveC² on December 07, 2011, 01:10 pm
I don't think any of the drugs that have been in use for decades cause much permanent damage when used sporadically at doses not imminently life-threatening. I believe a lot of the damage especially from MDMA, meth, and other stimulants comes from not eating, not sleeping, dehydration, and excessive physical activity for long periods of time. Even sober, I feel like shit and can't think clearly or work effectively if I don't eat all day or get enough sleep. The case might be different with some of the rarely used research chemicals. A lot of misinformation is created by the War on Drugs propaganda machine.

I don't notice much mental decline in myself or my friends after numerous binges. I can still read, write, and retain information without noticeable deficits unless I'm just too fried to notice. ;) I do feel tired and depressed for a couple days afterwards until my brain chemistry normalizes after tweaking for a few days. The brain and body, unless damaged catastrophically, like a stroke or heart attack, will heal given proper rest and nutrition.

I've done meth and prescription stimulants, weed, H and prescription opiates, benzos, and barbiturates the last couple months since I found SR and don't feel much the worse for wear, but I take breaks, am not physically addicted (yet), sleep when I can, and eat even if I'm not hungry. The only drugs I shy away from currently are tobacco, alcohol, and coke.
Title: Re: MDMA - New Nuerotoxicity Study (Feb 2011)
Post by: dance4life on December 07, 2011, 05:01 pm
I don't think any of the drugs that have been in use for decades cause much permanent damage when used sporadically at doses not imminently life-threatening. I believe a lot of the damage especially from MDMA, meth, and other stimulants comes from not eating, not sleeping, dehydration, and excessive physical activity for long periods of time. Even sober, I feel like shit and can't think clearly or work effectively if I don't eat all day or get enough sleep. The case might be different with some of the rarely used research chemicals. A lot of misinformation is created by the War on Drugs propaganda machine.

I don't notice much mental decline in myself or my friends after numerous binges. I can still read, write, and retain information without noticeable deficits unless I'm just too fried to notice. ;) I do feel tired and depressed for a couple days afterwards until my brain chemistry normalizes after tweaking for a few days. The brain and body, unless damaged catastrophically, like a stroke or heart attack, will heal given proper rest and nutrition.

I've done meth and prescription stimulants, weed, H and prescription opiates, benzos, and barbiturates the last couple months since I found SR and don't feel much the worse for wear, but I take breaks, am not physically addicted (yet), sleep when I can, and eat even if I'm not hungry. The only drugs I shy away from currently are tobacco, alcohol, and coke.

I think that is pretty well said.

Personally, I never did any drugs ( drank a few times ) until I was out of high school.  This probably helps a lot as my brain was fully mature before endeavoring into drugs.

I binged on xtc in my early 20's for about 5 years.  Yeah, it fucked me up.. doing it 2x a week sometimes..

I wouldn't say totally fucked me up.. I am fine now and I actually feel much more intelligent.. but for a while there I would get the depression etc. that comes with being an 8up individual.. just the cost of doing business with that drug..

Otherwise, I would tell people not to do drugs before they are older and also to keep everything in  moderation.  Really can't go too wrong with that combo unless you have a family history of mental illness or something else that has not been quantified in this thread previously.
Title: Re: MDMA - New Nuerotoxicity Study (Feb 2011)
Post by: E=daveC² on December 07, 2011, 06:17 pm
I also was little older when I started using which might have reduced some of the long term brain changes. I didn't smoke weed regularly until 19 or try stronger stuff like ecstasy and meth until my 20's. I have had periods of abstinence several months long between episodes of use which likely allowed my body and mind to recover.

If any drug I've used has done damage, I think it's DXM. Even after not taking it for a year, I still didn't get the same effects I did the first few times I used it. Maybe it's psychological or it could be real changes. With all other drugs, after abstaining for long enough, I get just as high as I got the first time. This leads me to believe my transmitters and receivers aren't forever depleted or the effects would be permanently lessened.
Title: Re: MDMA - New Nuerotoxicity Study (Feb 2011)
Post by: caffeine_me on December 10, 2011, 08:11 am
Great find sellingstuff!  It is funny, they should have mentioned the previous study limitations was they switched ("accidentally") MDMA for amphetamines and gave the rats lethal doses.   I was surprised when the media actually came out and exposed the researcher from John Hopkins for doing this... hmmmmmm why would he do something like that?
I always laughed in my neuroscience (Graduate level) classes in college when they would talk about MDMA and the detrimental effects.......when I had just rolled the previous weekend and still kicked their asses on exams.  I swear I took more E during that time just to see if it really had cognitive impairment.

Through my years of personal use "research," and literature review on SSRI's (Many good studies show the physiology of Prozac and the prevention of solidified neuronal-interconnection).....I have/had an increased ability of laying new memories (learning new shit) and a slight decrease of keeping long permanent memories.  It has been beneficial for me because as I have become older, my counterparts have become more set in their ways ("can't teach an old dog new trick") while I still have that youthful ability to process/adapt to new information/technology (Lots of room for new memories or neuron-connections).

I guess I should also mention I was in my early 20's before really doing any "drugs."  So kids, wait until your brain is developed a bit. 
Title: Re: MDMA - New Nuerotoxicity Study (Feb 2011)
Post by: dr octagon on December 12, 2011, 12:32 am
Long-term effect on neurochemistry is still a concern. You might be great cognitively speaking, but if you hammer MDMA for years and years who's to say you won't experience severe depression/serotonin depletion, neuron damage that could make life difficult in older age?

I think if you listen to your own body, you can tell that MDMA  needs to be used sparingly and responsibly for a reasonably trouble free future.  When you overdo it, it can take months if not years to feel 100% again. 

I love the stuff,  but after being a somewhat responsible user for 15+ years I can say that moderation and quality control are the key.

Especially don't mix with speed or meth, or RCs that target dopamine.

Title: Re: MDMA - New Nuerotoxicity Study (Feb 2011)
Post by: robin999 on December 14, 2011, 06:45 am
Good to see a study like this. Unfortunately the illicit drug research landscape is such that most of the funding comes from government organizations that have a vested interest in propagating misinformation. Unbiased researchers feel pressure to publish what those organizations want to hear even if it's bad science. Also, academic researchers feel lots of pressure not to publish results that go against the lot of previous research. And journal reviewers scrutinize papers that show no negative effects much more than ones that show some effect. It's a shame because often a result of "no difference" in biomedical research is important but doesn't make for good headlines and doesn't grab much citation.
Title: Re: MDMA - New Nuerotoxicity Study (Feb 2011)
Post by: asdman on December 14, 2011, 06:39 pm
Personally MDMA leaves me angry/depressed for about 5 days after i have 1 night on it. not my favorite drug by far. i cannot handle the serotonin depletion :(
Hello anton,
Have you ever heard of taking 5-htp for post-mdma serotonin depletion?
5-htp is a natural amino acid, a biochemical precursor of serotonin. I live in Finland, but I have ordered 5-htp from an US based company called iherb.com. I really advice anyone taking mdma to check this out. I usually take 100mg 5-htp combined with a strong multi vitamin-b capsule, since 5-htp requires niacin to convert into serotonin, thou 5-htp alone works quite well too.

-Asdman
Title: Re: MDMA - New Nuerotoxicity Study (Feb 2011)
Post by: foxymeow on December 14, 2011, 07:36 pm
MAO-B inhibitors such as Segelline and Rasgelline (my personal favorite) have scientifically proven to lower the neurotoxticity and greatly decrease oxidation from MDMA use. I remember reading an ass load of studies, I'll pull them up.

But I do know from experience that MAO-B greatly increase the length, decrease the necessary dose, and greatly decrease the comedown of MDMA.

Apparently the main reason it protects against MDMA neurotoxticity is (http://mdma.net/):

Quote
  There are other options for neuroprotection besides taking post-Ecstasy Prozac. On one hypothesis of MDMA-induced serotonergic neurotoxicity, the extra dopamine released into the synapses is transported into the depleted serotonin axonal terminals where it is deaminated by the enzyme monoamine oxidase type-B present in the terminal. MAO has two isoforms, MAO-A and MAO-B. These differ in their substrate affinities and inhibitor sensitivities: the MAO-A isoenzyme has a greater affinity than the MAO-B isoenzyme for serotonin, but mainly MAO-B is present in the serotonergic axonal terminals, where it breaks down "foreign" neurotransmitters. However, after a subject has taken a high dose of MDMA, excess dopamine is taken up by the so-called serotonin transporters into the depleted serotonin terminals. Here its oxidation produces a glut of toxic free radicals - highly reactive chemicals with one or more unpaired electrons - such as hydrogen peroxide (H2O2). These toxic free radicals are liable to exhaust or overwhelm the free radical scavenging systems of the cell. In consequence, the serotonin fine axonal terminals are broken down by lipid peroxidation. Why exactly the serotonin reuptake transporters lose their normal selectivity for serotonin and take up dopamine isn't known for certain. Possibly it's because by this time there's far less serotonin around for the reuptake pump to use. After the directionality of the reuptake pump is reversed by MDMA, serotonin released into the synapse can't be recycled back into the cell; and so it diffuses away. In any event, the monoamine oxidase inhibitor selegiline [l-deprenyl/Eldepryl] appears to be neuroprotective at monoamine oxidase type-B-selective dosages i.e. 2 x 5mg daily or less. Selegiline also protects against MDMA-induced inhibition of tryptophan hydroxylase. Interestingly, Prozac too has MAO-B inhibiting properties; and these may contribute to its neuroprotective effect. Selegiline itself has additional free radical scavenging properties that may exert a neuroprotective action. It will be instructive to compare the neuroprotective efficacy of selegiline with rasagiline (Azilect, Agilect) for E-users. Rasagiline is a selective MAO-B inhibitor licensed from mid-2005 in the EC for the treatment of Parkinson's disease; rasagiline lacks selegiline's trace amphetamine metabolic by-products. Whatever the older compound's neuroprotective efficacy compared to rasagiline, selegiline is potentially valuable too because, unlike taking a SSRI, adopting a long-term selegiline regimen doesn't impair MDMA's subjective effects. Even so, no controlled clinical trials of their co-administration are currently planned.