Silk Road forums

Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: Michael25 on May 28, 2012, 04:53 am

Title: Taking without waiting weeks...
Post by: Michael25 on May 28, 2012, 04:53 am
Ok, I know from just reading that taking X (mdma) without letting your body rest and chemicals come up to speed is a bad thing. The only thing I don't know is why?
If lots of people can take opiates all day long and have chemicals released all the time, all day long what is the difference between them? I mean does the body care if it is MDMA or an opiate? I'm just looking for accurate info...that's all.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Taking without waiting weeks...
Post by: nameless2 on May 28, 2012, 01:09 pm
Oh, yes, it does care. Just do a bit of reading.
MDMA releases all your serotonine (hormones making you happy) at once and your serotonine receptors need a long time to recover and to stock up the "lost" serotonine. MDMA is neurotoxic. You won't immediately feel the effects, but soon.
Title: Re: Taking without waiting weeks...
Post by: BoNgOn on May 29, 2012, 02:05 am
It takes a month for you brain levels to go back, If your doing pure MDMA they will go back but its best to let your body 'heal' between rolls. Plus I went through that phase like 2 years ago, MDMA is not a drug to abuse, you will leave yourself very strung-out. And Its specialness is also lost very quickly.

There are not many drugs you can get away with everyday all day.   
Title: Re: Taking without waiting weeks...
Post by: candorean on May 29, 2012, 08:33 am
MDMA is neurotoxic as fuck while opiates are not. Most drugs cause downregulation/upregulation of receptors which cause withdrawal when usage is stopped. MDMA goes past simple downregulation to neuronal death. It is honestly one of the drugs I feel least safe taking. Some drugs have shades of gray where you can take a reasonable dosage and completely circumvent neurotoxicity. MDMA is different. The smallest dosage that you can take for minimal effects (about 60mg) probably causes permanent neurotoxicity. The data is obviously uncertain (there was a recent Harvard study that showed no impairments) but it is dumb to risk it when studies have found lasting damage in primates with tiny amounts. With the normal amphetamines, scientists can at least agree that a reasonable dosage can be safe.  I really wanted to like MDMA, but I did the research with an open mind and found the risks far exceeds the few hours of bliss I get.
Title: Re: Taking without waiting weeks...
Post by: opi8 on May 29, 2012, 08:42 am
studies have found lasting damage in primates with tiny amounts.

fuck all i can think about now are monkeys rolling now  8)

Nods kicking in, time for me to log out me thinks...
Title: Re: Taking without waiting weeks...
Post by: venturebros on May 29, 2012, 04:13 pm
MDMA is NOT as neurotoxic as others have posted IF you keep your doses low (I believe erowid has a better ratio, but ~125mg or less), and give your brain 3-4 weeks (or months) to recover.
As the original Ricaurte study showed that excessive use (everyday in massive quantities) of Meth-amphetamines will cause dopaminergic syndrome and issues related. The study from Ricaurte was updated recently because they fucked up, instead of pumping animals full of MDMA, they were pumping them full of Meth. The correction has been updated semi-recently I believe. They claimed the lab that sent them the wrong drug, and the lab retorted that's what they requested.
It's been partially mentioned on wikipedia (clearnet).

IF you pre-load and post-load on good vitamins/minerals (there should be a list somewhere around here), get plenty of rest, eat healthy, workout, load up on plenty of anti-oxidants you can help PREVENT alot of the oxidation and 'neurotoxic' damage that is being claimed.
I believe there is a vendor that even sells supplements on SR to help.  ;)

PS: I have no MD, nor am I condoning the safety of MDMA use, use your brain and do some research!
Title: Re: Taking without waiting weeks...
Post by: frogtrap on May 29, 2012, 07:03 pm
As the original Ricaurte study showed that excessive use (everyday in massive quantities) of Meth-amphetamines will cause dopaminergic syndrome and issues related. The study from Ricaurte was updated recently because they fucked up, instead of pumping animals full of MDMA, they were pumping them full of Meth. The correction has been updated semi-recently I believe. They claimed the lab that sent them the wrong drug, and the lab retorted that's what they requested.
It's been partially mentioned on wikipedia (clearnet).

Shulgin goes over this exact subject in TiHKAL. I'm not saying that means it's definitely not neurotoxic, just that the study venturebros is referring to is not only mentioned on wikipedia, but also by Shulgin himself, in a Spanish court when he's questioned about the toxicity of MDMA. Of course, Ann and Sasha claim the whole story is fiction, but this is not the first I've heard of that study being incorrect.

Just to be absolutely clear, I'm not saying it's a good thing to take MDMA frequently, nor am I attempting to say it's "safe". Have the fun if you will, but with it, have the self control to make sure you can keep having fun. :)
Title: Re: Taking without waiting weeks...
Post by: Tryptamine on May 29, 2012, 10:42 pm
MDMA is almost certainly not neurotoxic at single recreational doses in humans, nor does it produce its effects by 'increasing serotonin'.
Serotonin is a stress-related endogenous amine whose psychological effects include tropor, sedation, learned helplessness, depression, and neurotoxicity. These are the exact opposite of the effects of MDMA. Dopamine antagonizes these effects of serotonin and lowers its levels in the brain. Virtually all psychedelic drugs work by ANTAGONIZING the effects of serotonin, preventing it from binding to physiologically active proteins, either by increasing dopamine turnover or replacing serotonin on proteins. This is also why SSRIs are ineffective at 'treating depression' and substantially increase risk of suicide (unlike 'non-SSRI' antidepressants); their harmful serotonin-increasing effects are antagonized only somewhat by their dopamine- and norepinephrine- releasing effects.

MDMA is an excitatory agent, which increases brain activity. If your neurons cannot restore themselves after repeated stimulation, they die. This is how excitotoxicity occurs. Many things can cause this, but that is the common denominator. Oxidative stress (which is a natural product of neuronal excitation, and is also increased by MDMA) and altered levels of monoamines can facilitate this neurotoxicity, but MDMA itself is not intrinsically neurotoxic just because injecting a sufficiently high amount into lab rats will damage their brains. The bulk of the research indicates that it is not neurotoxic as used by humans. Its use does, however, alter serotonin metabolism in a compensatory manner, which partially accounts for the residual effects that are sometimes experienced after MDMA use.

Bottom line: There is no evidence that MDMA is neurotoxic except when injected in large doses into malnourished lab animals. There is evidence that long term MDMA-only users do not suffer neurocognitive damage, compared to similar controls. The aftereffects of MDMA can be attenuated or even eliminated when your brain has adequate nutrition, unfortunately for the vast majority of people this is not the case.
Title: Re: Taking without waiting weeks...
Post by: frogtrap on May 30, 2012, 09:36 pm
Thanks for the informative post, Tryptamine. I always look forward to your contributions to the forum.
Title: Re: Taking without waiting weeks...
Post by: nameless2 on May 31, 2012, 01:12 pm
Can I do molly when I consumed it 4 weeks ago and LSD 3 weeks ago? Or should I wait another week because of the LSD?
The dose was possibly too low. So I didn't trip with both.
Title: Re: Taking without waiting weeks...
Post by: poolsclosed on May 31, 2012, 02:59 pm
Can I do molly when I consumed it 4 weeks ago and LSD 3 weeks ago? Or should I wait another week because of the LSD?
The dose was possibly too low. So I didn't trip with both.
You won't  have any tolerance to the LSD (takes about a week to return to baseline) and you've given yourself a month since your last use of MDMA, so I think you are 100% ready to go!