Silk Road forums

Discussion => Security => Topic started by: HeatFireFlame on July 28, 2013, 08:52 pm

Title: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: HeatFireFlame on July 28, 2013, 08:52 pm
Hi all, Well first of all, I am not making this thread to start arguments, everyone is entilted to there opinion and i respect it, so please respect mine. Im making this thread to basically say what i feel about the current BTC cashing out situation.

So, BTC, As you all obviously know is an anonymous currency that we all know and love, For many reasons, anonymity, privacy, Freedom and many many more. So the problem i have with it all is that Cashing out methods for BTC are nowhere near as anonymous as buying them, Personally i have never bought btc from an exchange , I havent spent thousands and thousands on here, But i have bought them for other reasons which im not willing to disclose for my own security reasons (the whole point in BTC) and have always managed to stay anonymous, completely and 100%. I never use my bank and the information on how to do so is widely available on these forums, I know because this is where i learned, so please dont comment asking how to buy BTC anonymously.

But lets say yo have 100BTC right now sitting in your wallet, Could you honestly transfer that into dollars, pounds or euros by tommorrow morning? If you answered yes, Then could you do it without leaving a trail to yourself? If you answered yes again, Then you most probably have set up an anonymous bank account or launder them through companies.  Im not saying this is the only way, but it is one prominent way.
Anonymous visas are watched so hard right now its unreal. You put any money into a card anyway you have a daily withdrawl limit from an ATM anyway, or your going into a bank.

Now compare it to how easy it is to buy BTC? i could easily have 1000BTC by tommorrow morning if i had the money and wanted them, But turning them back into cash would be hard as hell, I would have to act like fucking james bond.
So why isnt this information widely availaible? Im not talking about peoples personal ways of laundering cash or their tricks of the trade, Those are closely guarded secrets for a reason. The information im refferring to is the simple , I have BTC - how do i turn it into cash anonymously? Im not looking for everyone to start with the well the taxman would need to be avoided and blah blah. I understand all that, and agree with you some of it needs to be kept hush hush. But the information on how you turn Btc into cash simply needs to be widely availaible, Not only for our sake, but to let the community flourish. I know for a fact if i was new to it all this would be a big bonus for me. I do truly believe that if the Information was widely availaible BTC would be much harder to stop by the government.

So In my OPINION, everyone should share their ways of turning BTC into cold hard cash in your hands. Il repeat this part again before i start getting abuse of everyone on here.
I dont want anyone to start sharing their personal laundering methods, or how to evade the feds, or any information that would compromise a certain system of cashing out for somebody, That would be stupid to post and im not asking anyone to do so. merely ways to cash out anonymously.Not launder 10,000 dollars a week or anything near it, just your own BTC back into cash.

1. Localbitcoins , Do a meet in person trade, and get the cash handed to you there and then by a buyer, and in return you send them the BTC.
2. Buy an item with BTC and then sell it on. (usually something easily to sell on.)
3. Bitcoin OTC - same as local bitcoins really, dont use the bank transfer method, just in person meets.
4. get an anonymous visa, sell the btc on a foreign market and get them deposited into the bank account attached to said visa. (fairly anonymous, however cards are red hot right now so its not very safe)

Thanks for reading, Hope we get some good responses. Criticisms are welcome as well as long as they are not just malicious and posted for no other reason that "Its a secret, we dont want the feds on us man" because thats just as bad as the "Shhh keep silkroad a secret, Shh "
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: ChemCat on July 28, 2013, 08:57 pm
HFF  :)


Hugs to ya & +1 Karma  ;)



Peace & Love,


              Chem   O0
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: HeatFireFlame on July 28, 2013, 09:32 pm
HFF  :)


Hugs to ya & +1 Karma  ;)



Peace & Love,


              Chem   O0

Chemcat, If anyone could have posted the first response im sure glad it was you brother.
+1 right back at ya. Im sending you over a quick Pm now mate.  :)
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: ChemCat on July 28, 2013, 09:35 pm
;)
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: ChemCat on July 28, 2013, 10:42 pm
msg recieved & msg sent back  ;)

Peace, Love & Hugs to ya HFF  :)


Chem


   O0
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: awhiteknight on July 29, 2013, 04:46 am
I don't know for sure but I'd guess it's the same as anything else, cashing out is not the core of your business so you outsource it. You have a guy who you trust, you give him bitcoins and he gives you cash. That's how I'd do it anyway.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: NoQuarter_merchant on August 06, 2013, 07:52 pm
This is an interesting thread.

Really, it seems there is always that very small part that can be traced back to you.

What about tumbling bitcoins and buying cash from a vendor on SR?
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: Nemesis0914 on August 06, 2013, 10:49 pm
Thank you for asking a question in a much more articulate way than I could. This is an extremlely important issue an IMO and there is a lack of debate on this issue. PLEASE HELP NOVICES LIKE ME.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: HeatFireFlame on August 06, 2013, 10:58 pm
Thank you for asking a question in a much more articulate way than I could. This is an extremlely important issue an IMO and there is a lack of debate on this issue. PLEASE HELP NOVICES LIKE ME.
It's not a problem at all.
You see i strongly believe that people dont want to discuss it because they will feel as if the governments could close down or start watching who is cashing out. However, have a look at the way we buy btc. The easier it is the less they can watch it because more ways become developed easily etc. As i stated in my OP I have always done it anonymously without fail.
And we should make cashing out just as easy as it is to buy btc for the exact same reasons. It only makes sense. We should make everything, everything completely transparent . For cashing out and buying btc. Make it easier for all the company.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: gaia on August 11, 2013, 10:08 pm
A polite #bump as this is an interesting thread. Sorry I can't contribute.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: comsec on August 11, 2013, 11:36 pm
What should be common knowledge is to never use exchanges unless you have a business and full identification with the exchange and are using business accounts to receive wires from it. Otherwise they will seize funds/delay generally be a big clusterfuck and probably lose all your money if they get hacked since they are a giant target for criminals and feds.

What you should be doing is going on IRC and trading bitcoins using GnuPG identification/gribblebot on #bitcoin-otc or #bitcoin-cad or other p2p exchanging chatrooms.

You should be using localbitcoins

You could use bitcointalk forums but only with a middle-man escrow, or if both of you can jump on IRC and ident with gribble because bitcointalk uses insecure passwords, even if your trading partner has 1,000+ posts a badguy could be signed in scamming under his name easily. Depends how big the transfer is and how much you're willing to risk.

You could also split up your coins and use cash in mail or gold in mail services. There's no reason you have to cash all the coins out at one spot. Split them up to stay under the ID limit. Also, hope your BTC->Cash in Mail guy isn't sending you counterfeit bills, that's a future potential scam I haven't seen yet but was done with liberty reserve for years.

For the super advanced you become your own exchanger, and build a system to sell bitcoins directly to mass people in a foreign country. You'd need a huge amount of coins per week obviously.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: HEATFan on August 12, 2013, 06:40 am
Bump. Wish someone knowledgeable would contribute some information here. I am curious as to how vendors are cashing out anonymously. How viable is receiving cash in mail for bitcoins?
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: StaticTension on August 12, 2013, 06:54 am
It's about as reliable as the vendor your using. The thing that scares me if I was a vendor and using BTC vendor on SR to cash out and send money in the mail is how do I know if he's LE or not? It's not illegal to sell BTC or cash for BTC. I read this article the other day, some of you prolly have as it's old but it made me think:

CLEARNET:  http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/07/open-market/

Secret Service operation which lasted four years by operating as Fake ID seller by assuming the identity of a reputable vendor that they busted. That article worried me greatly as IMO if SR was to be ever comprised it would be from the inside out. We focus a lot of all the tech stuff like VM, Isolation, 0 day exploits but the weakest link is always the human part. Ah anyways even SR doesn't recommend to use SR vendors for cashing out and buying BTC. With all that being said I've spent hours thinking of a solution and every solution I come across has a flaw.

Comsecs advice is pretty sound. That's kinda the conclusion I came up with. You could set up a graphic design business making logos, get set up through Coinbase and make one logo a day for $80. Yeah $80 sounds shit but over 30 days that's $2400 from fucking logos. That's just one basic example and obviously you wouldn't want to push it up to $2400 just from one site. To be honest though if I was a vendor with a fool prof anon way of cashing out not to be a dick but I wouldn't share it cause everyone would use it and LE would be one too it and shut it down. However brainstorming like this with abstract ideas and theories to get you rolling in the right direction is a great idea.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: danconia on August 12, 2013, 06:03 pm
While we're on the topic, can someone explain to me at what point a purchase for something in BTC would need to be declared?  For instance if it becomes possible to buy a car with BTC, would one have to declare this on their taxes?
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: Porn Star on August 12, 2013, 06:53 pm
Danconia,
The short answer is that any profit is ALL taxable. IRS doesn't care if it's illegally earned, they want their cut. I believe that would be taxed at the dollar value for that vehicle on the day you purchased the vehicle with bitcoins. Think of it like stock transactions. The profit is realized when you exit the commodity. So when you change bitcoins into another commodity it is a taxable event. If the cars were investments, it might be possible for you to gain or lose money on the sale of the vehicle in a subsequent taxable event. If it's personal vehichle, then it was a single taxable event when you bought it with bitcoins. You might disagree philosophically, but the IRS won't care about your whining, and good luck finding a sympathetic judge.

Also, it's my understanding that they don't accept deductions from illegal income. It's a RICO thing. IRS says that ALL your money is profit and taxable. Watch out for that one if you're  a big vendor. That would not be fun.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: farmer1 on August 12, 2013, 07:16 pm
While we're on the topic, can someone explain to me at what point a purchase for something in BTC would need to be declared?  For instance if it becomes possible to buy a car with BTC, would one have to declare this on their taxes?

If we get to the point where you can buy a car (at a regular dealer) with bitcoins then the playing field will be much different. The US gov will have lost its control.



As a vendor I would be very careful about using another SR vendor to cash out. Not only could they be LE but they are going to be fairly easy to track down by LE if that time comes.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: abitpeckish on August 12, 2013, 07:32 pm
Subbing. I imagine some clever methods may surface in this thread.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: medicineman684 on August 12, 2013, 07:39 pm
I have great luck cashing out locally with localbitcoins. You can also post a localbitcoin add to sell via cash in the mail. A slight risk I suppose but I believe it is legal so I doubt feds are on there trying to buy a few hundred worth of bitcoin just to get your address.  Just be sure your coin has been tumbled.

Gold is always a good option: amagi metals.

Another trick of mine is to use localbitcoins to sell bitcoins for money via bank transfer directly to people I owe money to (like my landlord). Or talk them into accepting bitcoins (usually doesn't work!)

If cashing out online always do it disconnected from regular email/accounts. Create a separate account or email just for that purpose.

And of course a lot of it I don't have to cash out at all. Buy gift certificates at gyft or better yet find someone who takes straight bitcoins for what you want to buy. The way bitcoins are going to really become successful is if people start using them like money.

hope this helps some.
mm
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: StaticTension on August 12, 2013, 10:12 pm
Some of you are prolly aware of this site, if not then take a look:

CLEARNET: https://spendbitcoins.com

It should give you some ideas of your own. I spent about an hour going through that list and it wasn't hard to figure out which sites where just for the purpose of laundering Bitcoins. Some options setting up a site for a service. A nice looking professional site. Hell if you have to pay a pro to do it or buy a wordpress theme online as they don't cost more than $50 for a top of the line theme. So many options I think some creativity, planning, and precautions will help figure out a way. Think of any real skills or services that you have that would make it viable and realistic as to why you have that site.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: mrniceguy420 on August 13, 2013, 01:25 am
Ok, there is a process here that I think people are overlooking...

SR is an excellent marketplace, and vendors (and buyers for that matter) may have amassed a small fortune (relative terms) in comparison to their lives pre-SR. With that said, you might be in a position with too much BTC on your life may have become harder to keep "under the radar".

You guys need to keep in mind that, at some point, you need to make your money LEGIT. That means filing taxes and being able to claim the lifestyle you have grown accustomed to. It's a headache to manage illicit funds, and you can't spend all that money you got burning a hole in your pocket (safe, etc :) )

First things first: localbitcoins. It's pretty unanimous that this is the most anonymous way to turn your BTC into fiat currency. Just, uh, exercise caution on transactions that are more than a few grand. You might find someone who will buy $10K in BTC at a fair-market value, but that's unclaimed income territory, and the wrong buyer might have a badge, and that's a conversation I don't think any of us want to have. Stick to under $5k exchanges and you should be clear. Maybe skim over the bills to see if they are either *sequential* or *marked* before completing the transaction.

Next: Hire an accountant. Make sure you know the guy because he needs to be privy to your situation. He'll probably tax you for the favor, but this is going to keep the IRS off your ass.

Then: Start an LLC. Yes, start a business. Talk to your accountant about it. You could just create a holdings company if you really want to, but some people use SR as a means to an end; so perhaps start something you have always wanted to do. Even if you aren't making any money on the level, your books are cooked anyway - that's what the accountant is for.

Finally: Lawyer up. Throw down on a retainer because shit happens. And, if anyone fucks with you, you can fuck with them back and say, "Talk to my lawyer"!

End result: You're paying taxes on (some) of your income, you have a few legit bank accounts, an (allegedly) productive business, and the IRS is off your ass. Trust me, the tax man will get you one way or another, so don't be a douche and hide your money in your walls. Clean your money and you'll sleep better at night.
MNG
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: cooked on August 13, 2013, 01:31 am
you people on sr are so bad with financials it's demoralizing

the polish anon visas are the most commonly used. i use prepaid cards (greendot etc) registered in other people's names. you can make a bank account in someone elses name if you want. relatively endless options you can use
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: medicineman684 on August 13, 2013, 02:50 am
Cooked, can you (or anyone else) explain their process for getting greendot/vanilla debit cards under an assumed name?

thanks,
mm
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: StaticTension on August 13, 2013, 02:54 am
See the problem with that cooked is yes it's not hard to steal someone else identity and use to register your moneypak cards and prepaid cards. The problem however lies in the fact that say you steal my identity and your happily go along loading your illicit drug money onto your card and one day I decide 'Hey you know I really need to try out Greendot cause it's so cool!' is that there's already an account with my info and my SSN in Greendots database. What do you think Greendot is going to do when that happens? The chances of this occurrence I described are probably around 10% and I'm just making an estimated guess. Please don't act like a money laundering financial guru when the technique you describe has glaring flaws in it.

You don't believe me? Then give me one of your Money Pak # and I'll be show how easy it is to link it back to you real identity.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: cooked on August 13, 2013, 03:05 am
See the problem with that cooked is yes it's not hard to steal someone else identity and use to register your moneypak cards and prepaid cards. The problem however lies in the fact that say you steal my identity and your happily go along loading your illicit drug money onto your card and one day I decide 'Hey you know I really need to try out Greendot cause it's so cool!' is that there's already an account with my info and my SSN in Greendots database. What do you think Greendot is going to do when that happens? The chances of this occurrence I described are probably around 10% and I'm just making an estimated guess. Please don't act like a money laundering financial guru when the technique you describe has glaring flaws in it.

You don't believe me? Then give me one of your Money Pak # and I'll be show how easy it is to link it back to you real identity.

of course, that is why it is called identity fraud. the only way to cash out bitcoins anonymously (besides localbitcoins and the like, these websites are subpar for cashing out a significant amount) is to steal someone elses identity. this is how everyone who has a substantial income from bitcoins does it

mediceneman, buy a fullz and open a greendot card with it. change the mailing address to your drop, either that or you can reroute the package through usps.

also static less than 1% of 1% of the US population has a greendot card i dont get what the 10% figure means
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: StaticTension on August 13, 2013, 03:18 am
Where did you get the 1% figure from? Is there a survey that gets sent out to American citzens to tally the total of Greendot users? Regardless if it's 10% or 1% stealing someones info and using it to set up prepaid cards used to cash out your drug money is considered anonymous by a lot of people but it really is not. With that method you can take all the safety precautions but in the end you're relying on a method that you truly don't have 100% control over. Namely if said person discovers their identity has been stolen. If that happened the only warning or sign you would get is the card being frozen and the funds. Do vendors use this method? Sure all the time. Is it the smartest? Guess depends on who you ask. If I was a vendor I'd prolly use that method if I was desperate but ideally a top rated vendor would have a much better and clever method.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: cooked on August 13, 2013, 03:22 am
how would someone find out? you are only notified of a financial action in your name if it means you are opening up credit or establishing credit. I wouldn't load the card with 5 grand at once, use some common sense lol.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: StaticTension on August 13, 2013, 03:29 am
I don't get why people on SR and especially vendors love MoneyPak. It's terrible. That shit is so trackable it's not even funny. Look if I was LE you know what I would do? Sent up shop as BTC/Cash vendor wait for and record big transactions. Wait for someone to make a purchase of $1k+ send them either the MoneyPak, cash, bank wire and then all I have to do is follow the trail. MoneyPak is especially easy to follow because of the serial numbers on the card. Unless you have a truly 100% anom card overseas which you mentioned you did then it would be ok however those cards are becoming very hard to find if not impossible nowadays.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: cooked on August 13, 2013, 03:35 am
I don't get why people on SR and especially vendors love MoneyPak. It's terrible. That shit is so trackable it's not even funny. Look if I was LE you know what I would do? Sent up shop as BTC/Cash vendor wait for and record big transactions. Wait for someone to make a purchase of $1k+ send them either the MoneyPak, cash, bank wire and then all I have to do is follow the trail. MoneyPak is especially easy to follow because of the serial numbers on the card. Unless you have a truly 100% anom card overseas which you mentioned you did then it would be ok however those cards are becoming very hard to find if not impossible nowadays.
if LE was even half serious about going through and catching each INDIVIDUAL vendor they could arrest you in a matter of days

they buy a package from you. go to the post office where it came from, look at the security footage or your DL plates. if you avoided cameras, good, but there are only so many post offices in your area.

just stop being paranoid

also the polish anon cards from poland are everywhere they are cheap and you can 40 of them at once if you want
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: StaticTension on August 13, 2013, 05:03 am
lol...what vendor actually uses a Post office to deliver their package of drugs? Come on seriously you didn't just say that.  You think any vendor walks into a post office to deliver they product?? LE to catch a smart vendor would see what ZIP code the package came from. With that info they would contact ISP to determine the users within that ZIP code that have used TOR 7 days prior to the package being received. Depending on the population said ZIP code this could be a large list or small. Regardless for one ZIP code I can't imagine it being a huge list. With that information they would further narrow it down by watching those peoples ISP by sending them messages to their vendor account and then checking what time those people from their suspect list logged onto TOR. They would continue this until they were able to narrow down the list till they got to a few suspects. After that it's all groundwork. That is how LE catches a vendor. IF a vendor is walking into the Post office to drop off packages then maybe he needs to find a different job don't you think?

LE don't give a shit about your 1/4 quarter of weed that you are mailing out or receiving as much as they do as money laundering used to fund terrorist activities or people not wanting to pay taxes and guess what those two groups of people liked to use . Did you guess Moneypak and Prepaid credit cards? Well then you guessed right. There's a little something called the Patriot Act that changed the game and basically turned US into a police state. Maybe you should go read it and see how it affected the financial rules governing not only the US but almost all other countries it deals with by the way of FINCEN.

Am I being paranoid or do you just have a very non-chalant attitude about the whole topic?



Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: cooked on August 13, 2013, 05:50 am
all packages can be traced to where it was originally taken by the postal service.

plus, if you use a tracking number (which the majority of vendors do), your zip code is already public information.

yes you are paranoid, the majority of silk road users are. it's not a bad trait but you need to realize there are limits to anonymity and you can only be safe to a certain extent.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: HeatFireFlame on August 13, 2013, 08:22 am
Thank you forthe contributions all, Im sure we are making some great headway here.
I believe that the best ways are always anonymous, Sure if you get to the stage where you are making loads and loads of cash it is a different story, I was originally looking for easy  and simple ways to cash out btc.
Some good answers so far guys ;)
Keep it up
Hff
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: NW Nugz on August 13, 2013, 09:31 am
...I dont want anyone to start sharing their personal laundering methods, or how to evade the feds... ...merely ways to cash out anonymously.Not launder 10,000 dollars a week or anything near it, just your own BTC back into cash.
I think stopping this is what the Feds have been working very hard on recently. They close down every method they can. If anyone can do 5k a week with a method, then many people can do a huge amount of not paying taxes per week. I think that is what they are trying to stop. You may not think you are asking about how to "money launder", but that's what can be done with such a method if you find a good one. Selling coins is no biggie. Doing it anonymously is what they care very much about.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: NW Nugz on August 13, 2013, 10:05 am
Danconia,
The short answer is that any profit is ALL taxable. IRS doesn't care if it's illegally earned, they want their cut. I believe that would be taxed at the dollar value for that vehicle on the day you purchased the vehicle with bitcoins. Think of it like stock transactions. The profit is realized when you exit the commodity. So when you change bitcoins into another commodity it is a taxable event.
If you bought Btc when they were cheap and held them as an investment until they were worth more, then selling them for Dollars (or other fiat currency) might be the taxible event? I don't know if you are supposed to declare your ownership of Btc that you are holding as an investment to the IRS each year while you hold them as an investment?

If, on the other hand, you receive a bunch of Btc for some other reason, and then some time after, convert them to Fiat, I think any profit (or loss) was realized at the time you received the Btc. Spending the Btc or converting them to Fiat Currency just lets the Gov see that you have them. Then, they want to know how you got them and why you did not report the income sooner (if it was in a previous tax year). If you can prove you bought them with the same amount of (or more) dollars, then there is no profit. If you sold something for the Btc and have proof how much the item you sold cost you, then the difference between your cost and the amount the Btc were worth when you received them equals profit (or loss). If you can't explain how you got the Btc, the IRS probably does assume they are 100% profit. I think unexplained Btc profits might attract attention from other LE? If the Gov knows you turned a bunch of Btc into fiat, i think you need a really good story about where you got them.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: iCaNsee on August 13, 2013, 04:56 pm
Although I unfortunately cannot read this entire thread right now, I do agree with the OP's idea and points he makes in the start of this thread. 
This information is semi neccessary and importantly helpful to newer vendors who are intelligent and need to get the ball rolling.




We're strong in numbers. 


Viva la revolution
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: HeatFireFlame on August 14, 2013, 06:01 pm
To whoever It was that posted this link.
https://www.spendbitcoins.com/places/
Thank you it has some really decent sites on it, That are very highly usable. ;)
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: StaticTension on August 14, 2013, 11:43 pm
Your welcome :)

Yeah there's actually a few good sites on there to spend your bitcoins. I'm wondering how the anonymous web hosting providers are on that list? If they can be provide hosting for your website anonymously then it would be possible to make a few merchant sites, link it to a payment processor and cash out that way. Of course you have to find a way to have the money go into an account that can't be linked to you and then also we all say what happened with Freedom hosting. Trusting your freedom in the hands of others is never a good thing.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: danconia on August 15, 2013, 05:33 am
Danconia,
The short answer is that any profit is ALL taxable. IRS doesn't care if it's illegally earned, they want their cut. I believe that would be taxed at the dollar value for that vehicle on the day you purchased the vehicle with bitcoins. Think of it like stock transactions. The profit is realized when you exit the commodity. So when you change bitcoins into another commodity it is a taxable event.
If you bought Btc when they were cheap and held them as an investment until they were worth more, then selling them for Dollars (or other fiat currency) might be the taxible event? I don't know if you are supposed to declare your ownership of Btc that you are holding as an investment to the IRS each year while you hold them as an investment?

If, on the other hand, you receive a bunch of Btc for some other reason, and then some time after, convert them to Fiat, I think any profit (or loss) was realized at the time you received the Btc. Spending the Btc or converting them to Fiat Currency just lets the Gov see that you have them. Then, they want to know how you got them and why you did not report the income sooner (if it was in a previous tax year). If you can prove you bought them with the same amount of (or more) dollars, then there is no profit. If you sold something for the Btc and have proof how much the item you sold cost you, then the difference between your cost and the amount the Btc were worth when you received them equals profit (or loss). If you can't explain how you got the Btc, the IRS probably does assume they are 100% profit. I think unexplained Btc profits might attract attention from other LE? If the Gov knows you turned a bunch of Btc into fiat, i think you need a really good story about where you got them.

Good post.  I wonder how hard the IRS will push you for answers if you hire a tax attorney?  Much like criminal attorneys I'd assume the second the IRS comes knocking at your door you'd best shut up and hire a lawyer, right?

As I make more and more money and use more and more bitcoins you can bet I'm going to do my best to fabricate background stories that make it look like I've made barely any profit.  As long as you keep buying BTC then you could claim the recent cash-out was from the BTC you just bought (and therefore less capital gains to get taxed on).  Would the IRS try to make sure you paid taxes on the original BTC income?  Or are you only expected to pay taxes on the capital gains?

This all becomes easier once more vendors are willing to take BTC orders online.  Currently it seems like it's mostly electronics and digital services... *Edit:* I take it back, there are many more vendors on there than I expected.  Even weightlifting equipment!
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: ImTylerDurden on August 15, 2013, 06:40 am
So the real question here is: which vendors are going to pitch-in and fund my schooling to become a CPA accountant? As a favor Ill charge you pennies on the dollar after I'm out and you'll know im legit as fuck. I'll be your fucking Saul Goodman.

70% sarcastic, 30% serious.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: DrugsAndCash on August 15, 2013, 10:39 pm
We offer ANONYMOUS BANK ACCOUNTS with high withdrawal limits and there's no other limits, no fees for withdrawals.
It's the safest method of cashing-out BTC,  many vendors use them and they are satisfied.
Cashing-out using our bank accounts it's pretty fast and easy.
Message me through SR for more details.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: Jack N Hoff on August 15, 2013, 10:46 pm
So In my OPINION, everyone should share their ways of turning BTC into cold hard cash in your hands. Il repeat this part again before i start getting abuse of everyone on here.
I dont want anyone to start sharing their personal laundering methods, or how to evade the feds, or any information that would compromise a certain system of cashing out for somebody, That would be stupid to post and im not asking anyone to do so. merely ways to cash out anonymously.Not launder 10,000 dollars a week or anything near it, just your own BTC back into cash.

How would you share methods without compromising methods?  Anyone with a good way of doing this is at least mildly intelligent.  Anyone that is at least mildly intelligent would never share this information publicly on the forum or with anonymous strangers on the deepweb.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: medicineman684 on August 16, 2013, 12:17 am
To stay under the radar of the IRS just don't own anything....don't buy property or expensive new cars or boats...don't pay for things with a debit/credit card..use cash. If you need a credit card get a reloadable debit under another name. Just "drop out" on paper. If you are ever investigated you will look like a total loser on paper. With no assets to seize they won't even go into further likely.

mm
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: HeatFireFlame on August 16, 2013, 07:18 pm
So In my OPINION, everyone should share their ways of turning BTC into cold hard cash in your hands. Il repeat this part again before i start getting abuse of everyone on here.
I dont want anyone to start sharing their personal laundering methods, or how to evade the feds, or any information that would compromise a certain system of cashing out for somebody, That would be stupid to post and im not asking anyone to do so. merely ways to cash out anonymously.Not launder 10,000 dollars a week or anything near it, just your own BTC back into cash.

How would you share methods without compromising methods?  Anyone with a good way of doing this is at least mildly intelligent.  Anyone that is at least mildly intelligent would never share this information publicly on the forum or with anonymous strangers on the deepweb.

How can you tell people how to buy btc without compromising methods? It's the same principle, I believe that the more ways are known the easier it will become to cash out.
As i clearly stated mate I am not asking anyone for advanced methods, No laundering techniques, And nobody who is earning lots and lots of BTC how they make it look legit.
I am asking people simply for ways to sell BTC and turn them into cash, Simple.
If somebody says buying things with btc then sell the items on. I doubt highly that method would be compromised.
Hff
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: danconia on August 19, 2013, 08:37 am
To stay under the radar of the IRS just don't own anything....don't buy property or expensive new cars or boats...don't pay for things with a debit/credit card..use cash. If you need a credit card get a reloadable debit under another name.

As I've gotten deeper and deeper into (re)selling stuff from SR, this is one of the clear conclusions I have come to.  If you're making a ton of cash then pay for as many things in cash as you can without looking suspicious.  If you have a job then have them pay you with check or direct deposit and use those accounts for larger purposes (cars, houses, etc).

If only my landlord would let me pay my rent in cash... *sigh*
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: StaticTension on August 19, 2013, 10:25 pm
We offer ANONYMOUS BANK ACCOUNTS with high withdrawal limits and there's no other limits, no fees for withdrawals.
It's the safest method of cashing-out BTC,  many vendors use them and they are satisfied.
Cashing-out using our bank accounts it's pretty fast and easy.
Message me through SR for more details.

Is there a reason that the same card you sell on SR is selling for $800 and on Atlantis you're selling it for $30? I'm just curious because both look to be the exact same listing...
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: Kiwikiikii on August 19, 2013, 10:44 pm

If only my landlord would let me pay my rent in cash... *sigh*

Billpayforcoins.com

also dropping off the map is really suspicious.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: CrazyBart on August 19, 2013, 11:04 pm
To stay under the radar of the IRS just don't own anything....don't buy property or expensive new cars or boats...don't pay for things with a debit/credit card..use cash. If you need a credit card get a reloadable debit under another name.

As I've gotten deeper and deeper into (re)selling stuff from SR, this is one of the clear conclusions I have come to.  If you're making a ton of cash then pay for as many things in cash as you can without looking suspicious.  If you have a job then have them pay you with check or direct deposit and use those accounts for larger purposes (cars, houses, etc).

If only my landlord would let me pay my rent in cash... *sigh*

A landlord that doesnt accept cash? that is strange. Does he not take money orders either?
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: danconia on August 20, 2013, 04:35 am

If only my landlord would let me pay my rent in cash... *sigh*

Billpayforcoins.com

Thank you I'll check it out.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: Love Inc on August 20, 2013, 07:28 am
We offer ANONYMOUS BANK ACCOUNTS with high withdrawal limits and there's no other limits, no fees for withdrawals.
It's the safest method of cashing-out BTC,  many vendors use them and they are satisfied.
Cashing-out using our bank accounts it's pretty fast and easy.
Message me through SR for more details.

Is there a reason that the same card you sell on SR is selling for $800 and on Atlantis you're selling it for $30? I'm just curious because both look to be the exact same listing...

I didn't check Atlantis, but here in SR he is offering two different services. The more expensive one does not have any limits what so ever as I recall, you can have a balance of millions of euros, and you can withdraw as much as you like anytime.

Do any of you guys know of a reliable debit card vendor here? I believe all these debit Visas come from the same Polish bank and they have the same limitations.

I am very interested in this topic...
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: medicineman684 on September 02, 2013, 04:14 am
"also dropping off the map is really suspicious."

People do it all the time...their credit becomes bad enough that they cant even get a bank account. Plus its only suspicious if someone is actively looking into you which shouldn't happen if you're being tight at staying anonymous. What would they do anyway if they can't find you?

mm
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: BPM on September 02, 2013, 11:20 am
Well, unfortunately, it's either selling drugs anonymously and then cashing out not-anonymously OR selling drugs not-anonymously and earning cash anonymously.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: StaticTension on September 05, 2013, 11:40 pm
Hey guys , don't forget about :

CLEARNET: https://www.spendbitcoins.com/places/

Australian exchange that you can cash out if you want but more importantly it has links to all the places that take bitcoins as payment so maybe you can find some services that you pay for in cash in R/L and use one of those places?
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: ChronicDemon on September 05, 2013, 11:48 pm
interesting read
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: SynthesisWizard on September 12, 2013, 09:55 pm
Some interesting methods without doubt, Thanks Hff For starting the thread.
SynthesisWizard
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: HeatFireFlame on September 19, 2013, 11:16 pm
Just a quick update, I tried a few of these methods and they worked out fine, It would be excellent to learn some more methods however.

Thank you to all the contributors.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: bluegreen23 on September 25, 2013, 09:00 am

As a side thought now that SR values btc at a separate value to mtgox (i don't even know what that value is at the moment or where to find it on the SR site) how does a person maintain selling their goods at a certain price point?
More importantly how do SR users compensate for the difference in mtgox price versus whatever method they are using to cash out vs the value that SR uses?

mtgox could say coins are worth 140, SR I have no idea but lets say they are valued at 120. Thats a fairly large difference in. Then trying to cash out on Localbtc the people on their are using there own value, it could be 110 btc.  How do people compensate for this?

math time (for my benefit)
buyer 1: buys 1 coin at 140
vendor 1: selling something they value at 140 dollars there for its 1.167 btc on SR (valued at 120 btc)
Therefore buyer must spend 1.167 coins to achieve the 140 vendor value, even though they have already spend 140 at an exchange.

vendor receives 1.167 (140 dollars by SR standards) and goes to cash out. Vendor shops around and either takes the 140 at mtgox (further increasing their profits) or is stuck at localbtc where they can't cash out above 115. This means vendor 1 is cashing out at 134$ which is also bellow the 140 mark they had decided to sell at.

I realize the second half of the above is completely on the vendor to shop around and depending on fluctuations could be beneficial but it appears to me that having several different btc values between where they are bought and sold makes things more complex. So how does someone work around this? Or am I way off in how things work here?
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: Jack N Hoff on September 25, 2013, 02:43 pm

As a side thought now that SR values btc at a separate value to mtgox (i don't even know what that value is at the moment or where to find it on the SR site) how does a person maintain selling their goods at a certain price point?
More importantly how do SR users compensate for the difference in mtgox price versus whatever method they are using to cash out vs the value that SR uses?

mtgox could say coins are worth 140, SR I have no idea but lets say they are valued at 120. Thats a fairly large difference in. Then trying to cash out on Localbtc the people on their are using there own value, it could be 110 btc.  How do people compensate for this?

math time (for my benefit)
buyer 1: buys 1 coin at 140
vendor 1: selling something they value at 140 dollars there for its 1.167 btc on SR (valued at 120 btc)
Therefore buyer must spend 1.167 coins to achieve the 140 vendor value, even though they have already spend 140 at an exchange.

vendor receives 1.167 (140 dollars by SR standards) and goes to cash out. Vendor shops around and either takes the 140 at mtgox (further increasing their profits) or is stuck at localbtc where they can't cash out above 115. This means vendor 1 is cashing out at 134$ which is also bellow the 140 mark they had decided to sell at.

I realize the second half of the above is completely on the vendor to shop around and depending on fluctuations could be beneficial but it appears to me that having several different btc values between where they are bought and sold makes things more complex. So how does someone work around this? Or am I way off in how things work here?

Vendor's can't cash out on MtGox.  No one can withdraw funds from MtGox.  Look at bitstamp.net and btc-e.com for a real bitcoin value instead of an artificially inflated one.  We lose money when cashing out because the bitcoin value on SR is higher than bitcoins are really worth.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: ☼LightOfPi☼ on September 25, 2013, 03:19 pm
To the OP or other people that might know:

Why not use an anonymous VISA? You said there were "hot", but what does this mean?

Ps: I already have a pretty good method worked out but I'm always looking for alternatives, hence my interest in the cards.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: missbliss on September 25, 2013, 03:21 pm
hi hi

exactly what jack said.

i've heard gox is fine for JPY fiat, however to get a JPY bank account you kind of need to be a citizen of japan..... so, good luck with that. there have been rumors floating around that some people can get cash out of gox, BUT they need to pay a 5% "manual processing fee" which more often than not would completely negate any benefit the exchange rate discrepancy would have. this has been talked about to no end on these forums and also bitcointalk.


as for SR's exchange rate: it's located on the bottom left side of every single page on the marketplace. also, its value is ALWAYS directly in the middle of gox and bitstamp. the formula is more or less (gox + bitstamp) / 2 = SR rate. that'll get you within a few pennies.

how vendors maintain a certain price? well, sadly, the only real solution is to raise prices to compensate. there's no way to tell SR you want your account quoted in "bitstamp BTC" or "btc-e BTC" it's simply "the SR rate". this means vendors can either raise the price of their items to strike the same margin they've always been getting, or learn the hard way when they go to cash out they've just been working for much less than they expected.

this all being said, having multiple BTC values does indeed make things more complex. perhaps you can go and convince all the buyers to eschew gox in favor of bitstamp or btc-e.. then we can get DPR to peg the SR rate directly to bitstamp and take gox out of the equation entirely... ;) good luck with that too!

xoxo
-mb
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: bluegreen23 on September 25, 2013, 07:23 pm
Thanks Jack and Ms. Bliss.

I didn't want to get to side tracked as you are very correct (both of you) this has been talked about endlessly (the value of btc on different exchanges) in multiple threads. I suppose I always knew it would come down to simply raising the prices on here to compensate. I had just hoped there was a different way.

Hard to try and help cash people out when the value of btc here is separate to other exchanges. But it's close enough to work I suppose. A few dollar difference though can mean a lot. oh well. A service is either used or it isn't.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: QuickSilverHawk on September 26, 2013, 01:07 am
Vendor's can't cash out on MtGox.  No one can withdraw funds from MtGox.  Look at bitstamp.net and btc-e.com for a real bitcoin value instead of an artificially inflated one.  We lose money when cashing out because the bitcoin value on SR is higher than bitcoins are really worth.

+1
You are spot-on. I feel like this cannot be emphasized enough.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Cashing Out- WHAT SHOULD BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.
Post by: Altered Dimensions on September 29, 2013, 10:29 am
nice thread mate  8)