Silk Road forums

Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: Michael25 on April 05, 2012, 02:49 am

Title: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Michael25 on April 05, 2012, 02:49 am
Sellers, why do you consistently try to get around using the escrow system that has been specifically setup so we (buyers) don't get screwed? Why would you require new buyers to finalize early even before they get a delivery? The SR escrow system is there for a reason, so we feel safe when we give you MONEY. If you indeed are legit and do send something you shouldn't have to worry about any early finals. Requesting early final only puts your service in question and then we all wonder why are these sellers asking us to do this? I'm just a little tired of these sellers barking out thinking they own the system and making threats to us that you will put us on a shitlist or not do business with us.  Listen, if the buyers get together and start not to do business with anyone that requests to final early you'll be the one on the shitlist.

Buyers, i'm just trying to help us out. Of course I don't use sellers that request to final early, stupid question. SR put that escrow system in place for US to use and these sellers that request early finals are just trying to get around that system and the rules of SR escrow system. Please don't bash or spam me here, I'm just trying to give us buyers a voice here.

PEACE.

Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: PrettyinGreen on April 05, 2012, 03:26 am
Thanks for posting this.  I wish the sellers would read it.  I'm new to SR and can't tell you how many sellers are requesting that new buyers finalize early.  I think that SR should put a system in place that does not even allow buyers to finalize early.  Then sellers can't request it, either.  As a newbie who probably got scammed on my first purchase for finalizing early, I would have liked that extra protection being in place.  As it is, I will never FE again, for any seller with any amount of good reviews or feedback. 
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Laughing Man on April 05, 2012, 03:28 am
Because vendors can't afford to float 4-5 figures of product at a time, especially since it's a LOT easier for a buyer to scam a seller since they can make a new account any time they want.
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Limetless on April 05, 2012, 04:33 am
To the OP: So what would you say if a vendor sent you something with tracking/recorded delivery and you didn't receive it because of customs? Would you ask for your money back then?
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Regicide on April 05, 2012, 04:52 am
New buyers can buy something from a vendor (competitor, enemy, scammer) and just claim to have not received it. This causes a very annoying dispute process. I think it is understandable and fair to FE for a trusted seller with recent successful transactions. When you shop on any other site such as eBay the buyer ALWAYS has to pay first. What's the big deal? If you know that the seller will ship it, the minute the package has your name on it and gets shipped out, the vendor has given it up because you said you'd pay for it.

Now for newer sellers and sellers with higher profit margins, escrow is wonderful. It helps buyers from not getting scammed. Basically the real benefit of finalizing early is that the vendor has just "lost" a product to you and obviously needs reimbursement for it. If they have many orders, with so many tied in escrow it can be a huge mess, and they can't re-up very quick. This will increase wait times for buying more products for the buyer in the end. Also, if there are scammers, that even causes more of a mess. Most of the buyers with 100 ratings and over 300 transactions are great sellers and they deserve the money right away, because they will most definitely ship you the item or solve any problems.
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: mazdacar47 on April 05, 2012, 05:31 am
Speaking from a buyer's standpoint (in all due respect to those honest dealers out there), let me just say that after getting ripped recently because I felt the seller was very polite and typed with a svelte tongue, I thought it was OK to go out of escrow, and I just ate crow.  The seller has been on SR for 9 months and had all sorts of 5 out of 5 ratings, probably most by himself.  Fuck does crow taste nasty. I will NOT FE again. 
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: yaosh on April 05, 2012, 09:48 am
When vendors start out, they need a way to make money multiply quickly, and they cannot do that if all of the cash to resupply is sitting in escrow while you're getting high from their product and forgetting to hit finalize and leave feedback, so working out of escrow may be necessary to get business going.  I think most vendors start out with honest intentions, but the temptation is great when you have someone's money and they don't know who you are, cannot come get their money back, or do anything to harm you.  To those of us who are professionals who move a lot of product, reputation and satisfaction are key.  To someone just starting off who has little money, that $500 scam might seem quite worthwhile.

I don't think the number of scammers is proportional to the number of dishonest people so much as it is to the number of people you can trust to take your money, fly to Barbados, and not spend it.
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: PrettyinGreen on April 05, 2012, 04:56 pm
Most of the buyers with 100 ratings and over 300 transactions are great sellers and they deserve the money right away, because they will most definitely ship you the item or solve any problems.

Well, a bunch of us just got ripped off by a seller who's been around for 9 months with a 100% on his feedback and over 300 transactions.  Many people did finalize early, me being one, and the seller certainly did get rewarded!  We all got jack and he got our money.  If we can't even trust feedback, then all we're left with is the escrow system.   
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Mister Dank on April 05, 2012, 05:43 pm
Sellers, why do you consistently try to get around using the escrow system that has been specifically setup so we (buyers) don't get screwed? Why would you require new buyers to finalize early even before they get a delivery? The SR escrow system is there for a reason, so we feel safe when we give you MONEY. If you indeed are legit and do send something you shouldn't have to worry about any early finals. Requesting early final only puts your service in question and then we all wonder why are these sellers asking us to do this? I'm just a little tired of these sellers barking out thinking they own the system and making threats to us that you will put us on a shitlist or not do business with us.  Listen, if the buyers get together and start not to do business with anyone that requests to final early you'll be the one on the shitlist.

Buyers, i'm just trying to help us out. Of course I don't use sellers that request to final early, stupid question. SR put that escrow system in place for US to use and these sellers that request early finals are just trying to get around that system and the rules of SR escrow system. Please don't bash or spam me here, I'm just trying to give us buyers a voice here.

PEACE.

As a seller, I think asking for early finalization totally defeats the purpose, but so does not having any buyer feedback to protect sellers. Scamming is a two way street and until SR fixes the issues that have already been brought up, I'll continue to figure this is a cop hangout.
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Delta11 on April 05, 2012, 06:46 pm
I started off as a vendor staying within escrow always, but now that I am an established vendor that gets tons of orders I can't afford having every single order in escrow, I'll go bankrupt faster than my money can transfer into my account. It takes ~3 days for the money to go from SR into my bank account and I use that money to reup on resources to continue to sell products on here and to help me with my shipping costs which can range anywhere from $1.95-$11.35, you can imagine how quickly my reserves run out when I stay within escrow.
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: M n P Stuff on April 05, 2012, 07:03 pm
Thanks for posting this.  I wish the sellers would read it.  I'm new to SR and can't tell you how many sellers are requesting that new buyers finalize early.  I think that SR should put a system in place that does not even allow buyers to finalize early.  Then sellers can't request it, either.  As a newbie who probably got scammed on my first purchase for finalizing early, I would have liked that extra protection being in place.  As it is, I will never FE again, for any seller with any amount of good reviews or feedback.

And that is exactly what you should do! We sell. Shrug? When/if we run out of cash, then we'll post on our page that we're down for a bit until we can get out coins flowing again. Isn't it better to do that then to break SR protocol and ask for FE? Wouldn't you as a buyer rather have that than to give up the only right you have to get your stuff? Why do you think the SR Gods designed SR that way? Wouldn't you buyers respect the hell out of a vendor that did that instead of canceling your order because you won't FE?

On the reverse side of that, if you are a buyer of ANY THING and you get upset because a vendor does say they need to hold off a while to recoup their coins so they can get more of what you want, then you need drug counseling. If you want the vendors to act like adults, you have to do it too! Support those vendors that don't require FE before you get your order. There are MANY of us! If you stop FEing, no one will ask for it any more! And for Christ sake, when you get your order, finalize the damn thing! Auto finalizing for any reason is wrong! Then you would deserve getting asked to FE. We still wouldn't do it, we would explain you have auto finalizing habits and no thanks for your business. As a vendor we can't act like junkies either. 

To those vendors that say they can't live without FE, then we say - get a job! That's what we do. We love Silk Road and the way it was set up to run. SR doesn't make you stop asking for FE because they would be shooting  them selves in the foot by telling you that you can't do that. It's money in (or out of) their pockets too!

Thanx for you time!
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: BenJesuit on April 05, 2012, 09:11 pm
Perhaps a 50/50 system should be introduced. 50%FE/50%Escrow.

It can be used for many kinds of transactions.

But for those sellers insistent on using FE because there is no other option, a 50/50% option might make a difference. A legitimate seller would employ the 50/50% to assist cash flows.

With new buyers (or any buyer depending on transaction type), it limits their risk to 50% as 50% would be in escrow. It would be great for bulk orders especially.

Not hard to code into the system.

And for the person who equated FE to eBay, well, not quite. With eBay, the buyer has recourse in case something goes wrong. Here this is NO recourse in the event that someone FE. They are SOL. And why I never do it and haven't lost any money on SR.
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Regicide on April 05, 2012, 09:16 pm
Perhaps a 50/50 system should be introduced. 50%FE/50%Escrow.

It can be used for many kinds of transactions.

But for those sellers insistent on using FE because there is no other option, a 50/50% option might make a difference. A legitimate seller would employ the 50/50% to assist cash flows.

With new buyers (or any buyer depending on transaction type), it limits their risk to 50% as 50% would be in escrow. It would be great for bulk orders especially.

Not hard to code into the system.

And for the person who equated FE to eBay, well, not quite. With eBay, the buyer has recourse in case something goes wrong. Here this is NO recourse in the event that someone FE. They are SOL. And why I never do it and haven't lost any money on SR.

+1
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Michael25 on April 06, 2012, 04:25 am
I started off as a vendor staying within escrow always, but now that I am an established vendor that gets tons of orders I can't afford having every single order in escrow, I'll go bankrupt faster than my money can transfer into my account. It takes ~3 days for the money to go from SR into my bank account and I use that money to reup on resources to continue to sell products on here and to help me with my shipping costs which can range anywhere from $1.95-$11.35, you can imagine how quickly my reserves run out when I stay within escrow.

Lame excuse really since SR offers a special service to vendors that will hide all their listings and products essentially "holding" off their business until they get caught up. If they do not want to use or take advantage of that system that is in place for them for exactly what you say then who's fault is that?
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Michael25 on April 06, 2012, 04:27 am
To the OP: So what would you say if a vendor sent you something with tracking/recorded delivery and you didn't receive it because of customs? Would you ask for your money back then?

I wouldn't get myself into that situation, because I will only order US domestic, where I live. HYPOTHETICALLY speaking I would first see if the vendor offers a re-ship if gets caught in customs. I would love to get some products from abroad but there are too many variables for making the trade just not worth it.
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Laughing Man on April 06, 2012, 04:28 am
I started off as a vendor staying within escrow always, but now that I am an established vendor that gets tons of orders I can't afford having every single order in escrow, I'll go bankrupt faster than my money can transfer into my account. It takes ~3 days for the money to go from SR into my bank account and I use that money to reup on resources to continue to sell products on here and to help me with my shipping costs which can range anywhere from $1.95-$11.35, you can imagine how quickly my reserves run out when I stay within escrow.

Lame excuse really since SR offers a special service to vendors that will hide all their listings and products essentially "holding" off their business until they get caught up. If they do not want to use or take advantage of that system that is in place for them for exactly what you say then who's fault is that?
If your listings go down then you have a whole crowd of users go "OMG WTF WHERE DID VENDOR X GO?!?!?!" and some of them will switch to other vendors and you will lose customers.
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Michael25 on April 06, 2012, 04:33 am
I started off as a vendor staying within escrow always, but now that I am an established vendor that gets tons of orders I can't afford having every single order in escrow, I'll go bankrupt faster than my money can transfer into my account. It takes ~3 days for the money to go from SR into my bank account and I use that money to reup on resources to continue to sell products on here and to help me with my shipping costs which can range anywhere from $1.95-$11.35, you can imagine how quickly my reserves run out when I stay within escrow.

Lame excuse really since SR offers a special service to vendors that will hide all their listings and products essentially "holding" off their business until they get caught up. If they do not want to use or take advantage of that system that is in place for them for exactly what you say then who's fault is that?
If your listings go down then you have a whole crowd of users go "OMG WTF WHERE DID VENDOR X GO?!?!?!" and some of them will switch to other vendors and you will lose customers.

Nope, doesn't work that way. The vendor still has the option to keep doing business with the current buyers he has already setup. It more or less turns his selling ability into a private listings until getting caught up on products and ordering. Jeez, doesn't the sellers/vendors read the features here?

Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Laughing Man on April 06, 2012, 04:36 am
I started off as a vendor staying within escrow always, but now that I am an established vendor that gets tons of orders I can't afford having every single order in escrow, I'll go bankrupt faster than my money can transfer into my account. It takes ~3 days for the money to go from SR into my bank account and I use that money to reup on resources to continue to sell products on here and to help me with my shipping costs which can range anywhere from $1.95-$11.35, you can imagine how quickly my reserves run out when I stay within escrow.

Lame excuse really since SR offers a special service to vendors that will hide all their listings and products essentially "holding" off their business until they get caught up. If they do not want to use or take advantage of that system that is in place for them for exactly what you say then who's fault is that?
If your listings go down then you have a whole crowd of users go "OMG WTF WHERE DID VENDOR X GO?!?!?!" and some of them will switch to other vendors and you will lose customers.

Nope, doesn't work that way. The vendor still has the option to keep doing business with the current buyers he has already setup. It more or less turns his selling ability into a private listings until getting caught up on products and ordering. Jeez, doesn't the sellers/vendors read the features here?
I thought you were referring to vacation mode, not stealth mode. Stealth mode won't stop people from ordering, so you'll still have the problem of too much money in escrow to be able to re-up. There is NO other market in the world where you get the goods first and then pay later (if you feel like it) because that model makes no sense.
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Off The Wagon on April 06, 2012, 04:50 am
It seems that the vendors who require early finalization for newer buyers generally put those terms in the listings...I know that I do, so if buyers aren't OK with that, they should move on to another vendor.  One of the main reasons I do it is because when I first started selling, a few new buyers forgot to finalize after they received their product, therefore I didnt receive my funds for 17 days. 

Communication is VERY important...if you are a new buyer, what would it hurt to ask the vendor if they require early finalization for new buyers?  If you dont want to finalize early, pick another vendor until you develop your own trusted reputation.   No vendor can MAKE you finalize early, but they can refuse to make the transaction.  That seems pretty damn fair to me.  In the real world, stores have rules, if you dont like those rules, you can shop somewhere else...Vendors have rules here, if you dont like those rules, just pick another vendor...there are plenty here.  Seems like everybody wins if everybody uses their heads!
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: KPranger on April 15, 2012, 12:12 am
The number one seller on SR required FE and no one blinks an eye.  Why is that ok? 
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: my_fake_acct on April 15, 2012, 12:26 am
^ Being the number 1 seller also means you're more likely to be a scam target.

I really don't think it's unreasonable to ask for FE if you have < 10 decent purchases. It sucks when you're new, but you just have to tough it out and make sure you go with someone reputable to build up your reputation. This is coming from a newbie (I just opened my account a week or two ago and have 2 purchases in transit that I FE'd).
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Rocker on April 15, 2012, 12:30 am
I generally agree with the OP. Finalizing early does seem to get rid of the whole concept of escrow in the first place.

But, as honest buyers, it is important to realize that buyer scams are aplenty here. Vendor's requiring early finalization is not because they are eager to get paid, but rather because they've been fucked so many times by buyer scams. As an honest and straightforward seller I have to deal with tons of assholes and people who try to blackmail me.

I don't require early finalization, I just don't accept super-large orders from brand new members.

Rocker
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: chronicpain on April 15, 2012, 12:56 am
I've tried all sorts of methods to find the middle ground. 90 percent of the buyers here are great. I've done the FE if you have less than 10 perfect transactions, etc. Escrow isn't perfect, nothing ever will be. But, I believe something needs to be tweaked. But, I keep the grand majority of my transactions without FE. Only large orders from a newer buyer or someone that has 20 orders but has 20 percent of them had issues.

I've even offered two prices. one for FE and one not. I also send every single package with a DCN, but that still doesnt stop the reverse scammers (I only received 3 items when i ordered 100) or whatever. We all have to remember that mailmen might have sticky fingers, roomates, lovers, your dog, whatever. Also, SR is trying out a new system to get vendors not to FE but thats just taking money away from the vendor in the long run. But may be  a good alternative to a new seller.

I would love if the system was perfect,  but it isn't and never can be. All vendors have their rules for their reasons. I am a buyer too and had to finalize early recently, lol (I dont buy that often and its under another name, obv). but I understood where the vendor was coming from and i was willing to take the risk. I havent received the product yet, but it hasnt been enough time. Each vendor has their own unique situation. if you dont like it. talk to them. I have worked things out all the time with buyers in sticky situations.. If you don't feel comfy, then go find another vendor.... But, I wish that its perfect but Im realistic...
Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: Spedly on April 15, 2012, 02:17 am
No one has a gun to your head. If you don't want to finalize early then don't. If you can't buy a certain product from a certain vendor without finalizing early, either suck it up or find a different vendor. YOU as a buyer have something to prove too.


Title: Re: Sellers, please read...
Post by: philter3 on April 15, 2012, 11:38 am
The number one seller on SR required FE and no one blinks an eye.  Why is that ok?

Cause most of the domestic acid vendors who sold sheets ripped people off and he didn't?

I don't intend to require FE for anyone.. but then again.. I'm not going to have to buy my shit from someone else either.

If you are a grower/cook.. FE is not especially desirable. You get better rep by staying in escrow and being very public about it.
You can afford to lose, but you have to attract customers. Hence FE is not optimal.

For the high volume vendor who has to reup with their own supplier it can make sense to ask for FE. Personally I wouldn't FE on tweak or the like under any circumstances.. and not on L unless the forums are filled with accounts of people getting their Lucy right on schedule.