Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: MailMaxDev on February 13, 2012, 10:29 pm
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If LE poses as a vendor and you attempt to buy something illegal from them, is that enough by itself for them to get a warrant to the address it was shipped to?
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Nope, they would still have to do a controlled delivery.
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As a buyer you shouldn't have to worry about buying from LE as it would be a text book case of entrapment.
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1. Buy from LE vendor :D located in overseas.
2. Have delivery address unassociated to you in any way. If you order small amounts most sellers will send the drugs in envelope so the drugs will end up in mailbox.
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You can be arrested for conspiring to obtain a controlled dangerous substance. Police can sell you fake drugs and charge you for it. What specifically makes having the drugs mailed any different?
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I wouldn't even worry about that unless you're ordering serious weight or something. It's not worth the trouble for them to set up a vendor account to prosecute some dude ordering a few grams of weed or RCs through the mail. To be truly safe, never sign for anything or let them hand the package to you directly. Just let them leave it on your steps or in the mailbox, then open it several hours later. If anything, they would try a controlled delivery and not attempt to get a search warrant at a later date. Maybe if the local cops are involved and you live in some small ass town with strict laws and a budget for that kind of shit, but even then I doubt it. If you get caught making small orders, it will probably be through an informant
Now if you're ordering bricks to your house... uh, good luck lol.
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As a buyer you shouldn't have to worry about buying from LE as it would be a text book case of entrapment.
Thinking about that, there is no way in hell someone could argue entrapment over this since coming to the site would imply an intent to buy before you even saw the fake listing.
Generally though LE's resources are focused in taking down larger dealers. If you were talking about personal use amounts I don't think they are going to go out of their way to try to bust a user. I could see them attempting it for large amounts but even then they would be hoping that you have enough drugs in your house to actually arrest you. I just don't really see them using their resources to arrest people for conspiracy to buy drugs in hopes the person has enough drugs in their house to stick them with a higher charge.
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As a buyer you shouldn't have to worry about buying from LE as it would be a text book case of entrapment.
Maybe in some European countries this is true but it certainly is not in the U.S.A.
I know in some Western EU nations LE are not legally allowed to pose as vendors
to bust buyers. But in the U.S.A. entrapment almost never works as a defence. If it
did there would never be reverse stings, but in reality there are reverse stings all the
time. To prove entrapment you need to show that LE *pressured* you into doing
something that you otherwise *wouldn't do*. Sending the order request to LE
shows that they certainly didn't pressure you into ordering from them, and
participating on a site like SR shows that you normally would order drugs online
even if not from that particular vendor, especially if you have ever left feed back on other
vendors.
entrapment:
LE: "Are you low on money? Need to make some money to keep your house? Here move these kilos of coke for us and we will give you twenty thousand dollars!"
Random Non Drug Dealer: "I dunno, moving coke is illegal.....I probably shouldn't"
LE: "But think about your kids! You are about to lose your house! Come on you wont get caught!"
Random Non Drug Dealer: "I really would rather not....I have never transported drugs in anywhere near those amounts before! Just hooked up friends with weed on occasion...."
LE: "Come on it is totally safe and you really need the money!"
Ranom Non Drug Dealer: "Okay fine I guess I will just this once since I am in really hard times"
LE: "PUT YOUR HANDS UP MOTHERFUCKER"
that is pretty much what it takes to prove entrapment in USA. LE needs to pressure you into doing something that you have no history of doing and otherwise would not do.
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You can be arrested for conspiring to obtain a controlled dangerous substance. Police can sell you fake drugs and charge you for it. What specifically makes having the drugs mailed any different?
When they're mailed to you, they can't prove YOU ordered them until you physically accept the package.
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As a buyer you shouldn't have to worry about buying from LE as it would be a text book case of entrapment.
Thinking about that, there is no way in hell someone could argue entrapment over this since coming to the site would imply an intent to buy before you even saw the fake listing.
They would have to then prove that you actually came to the site, and if you're using the proper security, that should be impossible.
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roxxo said- "Generally though LE's resources are focused in taking down larger dealers."
This isn't true AT ALL. The vast majority of people arrested for drugs are arrested with 1. personal amounts and 2. in their cars. Over 90% of drug arrests occur when people are driving their vehicles. Police have special rules that make searches and search incident to arrest much easier when a person is driving. That said, I'm not worried about getting arrested on SR just yet. It seems they have taken enough precautions and are far enough outside the mainstream computing community that they have gone under the radar so far. This could change at any moment tho. My main worry is the US postal inspector. This type of pig is generally very bored and if they become computer savvy could become very dangerous to the SR community. This is why shipping stealth and keeping these methods under wraps is ESSENTIAL.
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They can definitely arrest you and charge you for attempting to purchase a controlled substance. To my knowledge this hasn't actually happened on SR, and it doesn't seem very likely, but it is 100% possible. Just one of the many reasons why new buyers and vendors shouldn't be trusted until they're vetted.
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I could just be imagining all of this, but LE might not pose as a vendor themselves, but instead find someone to do it for them. That informant could collect addresses, and send actual drugs in the mail with delivery confirmation numbers. The informant could pass that info along to LE. LE could then inform local LE, who could watch the delivery confirmation number. As soon as delivery is confirmed, LE could quickly go to the residence. I'm not sure but I imagine they could get a warrant for a residence if they knew that a certain quantity of drugs was being delivered in the mail to a certain residence (or just a warrant to open the package itself at the residence). Even if they don't have a warrant, many people are unaware of their rights and may let them in anyway. Or LE would just talk to the people, and LE can and will lie to get people to incriminate themselves.
The vendor also doesn't have to actually send any package. Once the informant has the address he can inform local LE who could then perform a controlled delivery, or have a postal inspector do it. If people at the address suspect a controlled delivery is happening, they might just think that somehow the package was flagged in the mail system, and not necessarily that the vendor is an informant (especially if the vendor's user page says they will never ask anyone to sign for a package.)
LE might want to wait a long time and gather as many addresses as possible before busting people all at once (although then there's a risk that people may have moved or drugs are no longer there.) Or LE could find informants who create as many new vendors accounts as they can and don't worry about negative feedback and bust people as they go. Positive feedback for an LE vendor or informant vendor could be entirely from shills.
Some people on here like to believe that LE would never bother with people buying personal amounts, but if that was true than nobody would ever end up in jail for personal amounts of controlled substances. Possession is still a crime. And using the USPS for prohibited mailings (such as controlled substances) is a federal offense. If personal amounts are not a big deal then postal inspectors would not seek to intercept them. LE love drug busts. I found this: "The U.S. Postal Inspection Service will pay up to $50,000 for information leading to the arrest and conviction of individuals who use the U.S. Mail to distribute narcotics."
People also like to say that the address does not prove who ordered the items, but there's a reason that LE are interested in known associates of criminals. Chances are that a person at the address knows the buyer. And a few threatening questions may be all it takes for someone to give up a name. Even something as simple as "Has anyone asked you recently if they could send a package to your residence?" or "Has anyone ever mentioned the Silk Road to you?" Even if people at the address don't talk, LE is now aware of an address that may be connected to illegal drug activity, and it's now on their radar. And they could ask neighbors to note anyone who visits the residence in the near future, and later do a followup.
As far LE budgets go, it's taxpayer money anyway, and people arrested often have to pay fines, and bail, or will have assets confiscated in asset forfeiture (in civil forfeiture the US government sues the item of property and the owner must prove on a preponderance of the evidence that the property is not subject to forfeiture, even if the owner has not be charged with any crime.)
http://www.forbes.com/2011/06/08/property-civil-forfeiture_print.html
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roxxo said- "Generally though LE's resources are focused in taking down larger dealers."
This isn't true AT ALL. The vast majority of people arrested for drugs are arrested with 1. personal amounts and 2. in their cars. Over 90% of drug arrests occur when people are driving their vehicles. Police have special rules that make searches and search incident to arrest much easier when a person is driving. That said, I'm not worried about getting arrested on SR just yet. It seems they have taken enough precautions and are far enough outside the mainstream computing community that they have gone under the radar so far. This could change at any moment tho. My main worry is the US postal inspector. This type of pig is generally very bored and if they become computer savvy could become very dangerous to the SR community. This is why shipping stealth and keeping these methods under wraps is ESSENTIAL.
I think he's referring to federal agencies and the like. It's true that these agencies are more focused on big busts than the pittance of substances moved through Silk Road. Your local PD probably isn't even aware SR exists, so it doesn't seem like a fair comparison.
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It definitely possible, thought it seems highly unlikely that this would occur, in most instances. Think about it, you're dealing with two separate situations. First, would local LE in a small CA town spend there limited resources so LE in another state could make a small time bust, for which the department conducting the sting gets zero credit? Second, the Feds conduct a sting for which they have jurisdiction throughout the process, but would they use the necessary resources for a few grams of MJ or a couple of pills? Maybe if it was weight of something like H. Plus even if they make the arrest and controlled delivery, they still have a hell of a time following the money and digital footprints.
The biggest thing I would worry about is somebody at the Post office getting a bit curious. I think if somebody on SR does get caught it will be completely by chance.
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Most likely depends on the country's laws. Most LE won't take the time to post as a vendor so they can caught a simple user.
The problem in United States is that cops get "points" for arrest. Yeah, that's correct. That's why they like to arrest marijuana users. They're not violent and easy to persuade to get a conviction.
I recommend Never Get Busted by Barry Cooper (an ex-cop). nevergetbusted.com
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You guys are absolutely CRAZY if you think ANY L.E. agency is going to conduct a controlled drop which can costs tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and the manpower required for PERSONAL AMOUNTS.
Seriously guys, no police agency is going to bust you for PERSONAL AMOUNTS and if you believe they will then you must have consumed too much crack in your SR lifetime.
Where is the logic in spending 50k on a controlled drop for 10 hits of LSD and a fucking minor possesion charge? Get out of here. They want the DEALERS and they want the BIG BUYERS, not you, mr. 10 E pills or a 1/4 ounce of shrooms
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Like someone else mentioned, entrapment won't work as a defense in the US. There were some cases that already set the precedent for this so you can still get busted even if entrapped by the police.
Just curious, where did you get your numbers when you claim that it takes tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to do a controlled delivery?
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Also wondering about those cost figures... LE is typically paid on a yearly salary as far as I know, they don't get paid more on one day than another no matter how much hard 'work' they do. The only time it would start costing them a lot of money is when they have to sit on a PO box 24/7 and then pay out a lot of overtime.
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You guys are absolutely CRAZY if you think ANY L.E. agency is going to conduct a controlled drop which can costs tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and the manpower required for PERSONAL AMOUNTS.
And you are ignorant if you are not aware of past federal sting operations where small time buyers have been busted. Don't fall into the trap of using cognitive dissonance, your body fills a bed in a for-profit prison just as well as Big Meech's.
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You guys are absolutely CRAZY if you think ANY L.E. agency is going to conduct a controlled drop which can costs tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and the manpower required for PERSONAL AMOUNTS.
LOL, this is what I tell myself at 2am when I'm in bed, stoned, and waving to the LE watching me using infrared cameras through the walls. But it's probably true.
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You guys are absolutely CRAZY if you think ANY L.E. agency is going to conduct a controlled drop which can costs tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and the manpower required for PERSONAL AMOUNTS.
Seriously guys, no police agency is going to bust you for PERSONAL AMOUNTS and if you believe they will then you must have consumed too much crack in your SR lifetime.
Where is the logic in spending 50k on a controlled drop for 10 hits of LSD and a fucking minor possesion charge? Get out of here. They want the DEALERS and they want the BIG BUYERS, not you, mr. 10 E pills or a 1/4 ounce of shrooms
See you are the one who must have smoked too much crack in your lifetime because jails are fucking overflowing with people who got busted with 10 E pills or 1/4th ounce of shrooms. It is so obvious that LE goes after people for personal use amounts that you must be in serious denial to think anything else.
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WHY SOUTH CAROLINIANS GOT ARRESTED FOR DRUGS IN 1996 – 2006
Personal use 76.8%
Distributing or selling drugs 19.3%
www.lwvcharleston.org/files/Revised_Drug_Study_Summary.pdf
http://blog.norml.org/2010/09/15/incarceration-nation-marijuana-arrests-for-year-2009-near-record-high/
Of those charged with marijuana violations, approximately 88 percent (758,593 Americans) were charged with possession only. The remaining 99,815 individuals were charged with “sale/manufacture,” a category that includes virtually all cultivation offenses.
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where i am...if LE smells weed coming from your window they can come in right away. otherwise, its necessary for them to build an adequate reasonable suspicion of illegal activity....like an electric bill that is consistently 3 or 4 times your neighbors in similar size houses. Plus unusual amount of visitors...visitors who have someone waiting in their car. You get the idea....then a judge signs off on it. There was a recent indoor grow operation bust. High electric and maybe an infra red fly over of the house to show unusal heat signature. busted.
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You guys are absolutely CRAZY if you think ANY L.E. agency is going to conduct a controlled drop which can costs tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and the manpower required for PERSONAL AMOUNTS.
Seriously guys, no police agency is going to bust you for PERSONAL AMOUNTS and if you believe they will then you must have consumed too much crack in your SR lifetime.
Where is the logic in spending 50k on a controlled drop for 10 hits of LSD and a fucking minor possesion charge? Get out of here. They want the DEALERS and they want the BIG BUYERS, not you, mr. 10 E pills or a 1/4 ounce of shrooms
Not only are you overestimating the amount of money and effort LE has to put into such a bust, you are underestimating their motivation and desire to do so. They see every person they bust as an opportunity to make an example, deter other people, get more funding, and a pat on the back from the boys. Sure, they want to catch the big traffickers more badly than anyone else, but it's their job to catch everybody.
Also, receiving 10 hits of LSD is not just a "minor possession charge," that's maybe what it would be if you were caught walking down the street with the LSD in your pocket. Receiving controlled substances through the mail is a felony. If they were to actually charge you for it, I'm pretty sure it would result in multiple felony charges, because they can add things on like conspiracy.
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Police have special rules that make searches and search incident to arrest much easier when a person is driving.
This is no longer correct.
Search incident to arrest "was" broadly construed under Belton and Chimel. Prior to 2010, law enforcement had carte blanche authority to search just about anything and anywhere. Eveen the court recognized that the justification was basically intellectual dishonesty.
Anyhow, with the recent Supreme Court decision in Arizona v. Gant, search incident to arrest can occur only if the arrestee is within reaching distance of the passenger compartment at the time of the search or it is reasonable to believe the vehicle contains evidence of the offense of the arrest, and when these justifications are absent, a search of an arrestee’s vehicle will be unreasonable unless police obtain a warrant or show that another exception to the warrant requirement applies.
Essentially, if you're removed from the vehicle, you no longer pose a risk to the officer, therefore, they cannot search your vehicle for contraband. Further, and this is the important part, law enforcement cannot search incident to arrest "unless" it's reasonable that evidence for which the arrestee was arrested for may exist, may be concealed, or destroyed. So, if you're stopped for driving with a head light out, and you have a pound of coke hidden in the backseat, you're unlikely to get busted for it, hypothetically, of course... too many variable to list, but you get the picture.
If law enforcement does search and recover evidence unrelated to the crime for which the arrestee was pulled over for, the evidence will be suppressed. A first year law student could successfully argue the motion to suppress. The Court is more concerned with our right to privacy than catching recreational drug users.
Also, to the guy listing the stats, those number are skewed because of the former search incident to arrest rule.
Funny thing is... 80% of searches are consensual. For some reason, people think that when a cop asks to search, you're fucked. Not so.... "or at least that what I was told..." ;D
If you're board, look up the case on findlaw.com - AZ v. Gant, 129 S. Ct. 1710 (2009). Google 129 S. Ct. 1710, it's actually an entertaining read. the Court castigates the police officer.
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High electric and maybe an infra red fly over of the house to show unusal heat signature. busted.
This too is wrong. I often wonder where people come up with these stories. Ah, I could explain, but no one probably cares anyhow...
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Yup, more people in jail = more money for the people who own the jails (there's actually a judge in Florida who also owns the prison; conflict of interests anyone? yet he gets away with it).
Plus, if they catch enough little people eventually someone is gonna snitch and get them the big guy who they're after.
Just cause you're a "small fry" doesn't make you less of a target. Don't fool yourself or you'll regret it.
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It really depends on where you live. The US feds aren't going to bust you for ordering small amounts of drugs in the mail, unless MAYBE they decide to make a huge example out of you in order to discourage others. Quietly prosecuting you in federal court for possession of an eigth of bud or a few pills is not worth their time, at all. It's not like you can rat out your SR vendor.
What you really have to worry about are the local cops, especially in small towns with unusually high LE budgets and/or or states with ridiculously harsh drug laws. If your local PD is driving around looking for grow house exhaust with FLIR, then I'd worry (and consider moving lol). Then again, why would local cops set up fake vendor accounts if they can't be sure their customers will be within their jurisdiction?
I can see the feds running the vendor account and then forwarding order details to the AHJ, or whoever is capable of busting you locally.
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It really depends on where you live. The US feds aren't going to bust you for ordering small amounts of drugs in the mail, unless MAYBE they decide to make a huge example out of you in order to discourage others. Quietly prosecuting you in federal court for possession of an eigth of bud or a few pills is not worth their time, at all. It's not like you can rat out your SR vendor.
What you really have to worry about are the local cops, especially in small towns with unusually high LE budgets and/or or states with ridiculously harsh drug laws. If your local PD is driving around looking for grow house exhaust with FLIR, then I'd worry (and consider moving lol). Then again, why would local cops set up fake vendor accounts if they can't be sure their customers will be within their jurisdiction?
I can see the feds running the vendor account and then forwarding order details to the AHJ, or whoever is capable of busting you locally.
Local cops spider P2P networks looking for IP addresses that are involved with trading child porn. There are LE communications networks / programs that allow them to seamlessly refer a case to its appropriate jurisdictions local law enforcement if they find someone out of their jurisdiction trading in CP. Most CP busts that involve under ~100 images are dealt with this way, the feds mostly go after ~100+. But the point is local law enforcement do attack CP traders and jurisdiction doesn't stop them. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they approach the online drug trade in the same exact way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Exploitation_Tracking_System
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@sour- but how can the feds really set up a solid seller acct? They'd just get maybe a week's worth of the noobs before all the forums and reviews hit. Who is going to order from a new seller when there are so many great ones available?
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The only thing I'm certain of is that there's boundless room for speculation concerning these issues. It's hard to know the scale of resources they're devoting to this site. For now the political pressure to bust this place, and the business model in general, is relatively low I think. You don't see this place getting roasted on CNN, or politicians actively rallying against it. When that happens I'm headed for the sidelines. They will do something, no matter how big or small. It's not like they don't have avenues to bust people on here, it's only a matter of the juice being worth the squeeze. When public and political pressure mounts, any squeeze will be worth the juice. The time can't be far. Some high profile douchebag's ignorant kid will buy some heroin and die or something, they'll figure out he got it off SR, and the mob will erupt. Come then I'll wait and see what vectors they take to demonstrate a response, and assess the viability of continued involvement from there.
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You don't see this place getting roasted on CNN, or politicians actively rallying against it
Actually at least two politicians asked DEA to shut SR down, and it has been in the news multiple times.
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I wonder if LE considers the fact SR has effectively eliminated the darker side of the drug trade...?
Aside from the possibility of inexperienced users wigging out or (FSM forbid) OD'ing, SR is all positive...
OK, yeah. You can add the danger of receiving a substance other than advertised but that issue's IRL too. Scams? IRL too. Hmm... Maybe LE's taking a step back and weighing the pros and cons of this little Hamsterdam experiment - but that's definitely bullshit.
Or not.... you know, if its a war on drug *cartels* then the easiest way for LE to win is to let SR flourish - letting the small to medium scale businessman take back the industry. Pipe dream though.
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The gambling enforcement agencies are going to be the ones that shut down Silk Road. Its sad to see but because there are so many lottos on Silk Road its only a matter of time now. Because illegal gambling attracts a lot of LE attention.
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To all the guys that constantly state stuff like: Aaaah the cops, they dun care about a single buyer of a little XYZ and stuff to this effect. You are aware, that at least in the US, police departments all over the country use task forces of up to 30 people using 10 to 12 cars and renting numerous hotel rooms to bust a couple guys that want to get a blowjob for a 20?
I mean, I understand where you come from, but then, this type of attitude is EXACTLY what gets people busted.
Naaah naaaah, the cops? for me and my 5g of weed...naaah never. I actually went to the slammer once, guess how often I have heard EXACTLY that story.
Naaaah me little fish? I thought they're after the big guys. Well guess what, every jailhouse in the US is FILLED TO THE BRIM with little fish, and hardly ever any really big guys.
I'm not here to monger paranoia or anything, but some people just appear to lack a healthy respect for the risks and probabilities what we're doing here.
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Naaaah me little fish? I thought they're after the big guys. Well guess what, every jailhouse in the US is FILLED TO THE BRIM with little fish, and hardly ever any really big guys.
I'm not here to monger paranoia or anything, but some people just appear to lack a healthy respect for the risks and probabilities what we're doing here.
Exactly. Using the USPS for prohibited mailings (such as controlled substances) is a federal offense. That gram of weed in the mail is a potential felony. A buyer may think he's a little fish, with a tiny gram, but a felon is a felon.
I am not a lawyer though, and maybe only the vendor is looking at a felony charge, but thinking that only the vendor is facing a potential felony charge will not keep you safe if you're mistaken. Ignorance of the law is not recognized as a valid defense. The risks involved here should never be downplayed or ignored.
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A book I recommend (you can find it online for "free" as a PDF):
Arrest-Proof Yourself: An Ex-Cop Reveals How Easy It Is for Anyone to Get Arrested, How Even a Single Arrest Could Ruin Your Life, and What to Do If the Police Get in Your Face
http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Ex-Cop-Reveals-Arrested/dp/1556526377/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329840764&sr=8-1
It's more targeted to teens but it shows how the system is so fucked up in US. ANY shit and you get arrested.
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A) Not all laws are the same in all places. Since you wrote the post in English, I can sort of guess you are likely from the UK or a former UK colony though, and most of those countries would generally not consider that enough for a warrant. Generally. Most of them. In a really broad kind of way.
B) Warrants are issued by judges (again assuming you are talking about one of the British/Colonial nations), and judges are human. They sometime forget what is and is not legal, and thus may issue a warrant every now and then in an illegal fashion. Think about what you do (job, school, hobby, whatever) and ask yourself if you could do it full-time for the duration of an entire career without messing up at least a few times.
C) Thus, don't operate in a way that relies on the law to protect you. Operate in a way that relies on the law being unaware of your existence. If all that is stopping cops from arresting/searching you is a warrant, sooner or later they will either find a judge who will sign it.
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Maybe it's just me, but I think if LE is going to pose as a vendor, they're not going to scrounge up a few noobs and then peace out with their catch. They're going to be in it for the long haul and pose as a "trusted" vendor. collect addresses and stuff. Who knows what they can do with them after a certain amount of time has passed, but I wouldn't be surprised if the US pulls some retroactive law out of their ass just so they can snigger and say "gotcha" to all the SR buyers.
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Thank heavens I live in a country that doesn't care about domestic shipments of marijuana through the postal system....
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The DEA did once bust a marijuana seeds company by intercepting their outgoing mail, photographing it, and sending the buyers a new letter indicating they had to pay with western union or moneygram to complete the order which was all over the news here about 5 years ago. The DEA letter specifically asked for WU and no PO Boxes, so they were obviously looking to raid grower's houses.
Guess they don't need controlled delivery because it worked for them at the time.
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Maybe it's just me, but I think if LE is going to pose as a vendor, they're not going to scrounge up a few noobs and then peace out with their catch. They're going to be in it for the long haul and pose as a "trusted" vendor. collect addresses and stuff. Who knows what they can do with them after a certain amount of time has passed, but I wouldn't be surprised if the US pulls some retroactive law out of their ass just so they can snigger and say "gotcha" to all the SR buyers.
In the USA, retroactive laws (called "ex post facto" laws, AKA "laws made after the fact") are not legal. While a cop, prosecutor or judge may screw up the process of the law from time to time, the government can't create an ex post facto law. If they did, it would be un-created through the appeals process.
If you have heard the term "double jeopardy," it's kind of the same concept. Once the legal system says you are off scott free, you are. And if you do something that is legal, they can't go back and make it illegal later and retroactively apply it.
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As a buyer you shouldn't have to worry about buying from LE as it would be a text book case of entrapment.
Others have said it as well but I felt the need to point this out - it's not at all a textbook case of entrapment if you were going to buy the drugs anyway. To get technical about it, entrapment essentially means that the mens rea (guilty thought) was created by the cop. That's not the case.
For the same reason, Pee Wee saying "Are you a cop? You have to tell me or it's entrapment" in Blow isn't true. Entrapment nearly never works as a defense, and when it does it almost exclusively involves a police officer who was WAY over the line to the point of coercion.
.... YMMV, depending on local laws.
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As a buyer you shouldn't have to worry about buying from LE as it would be a text book case of entrapment.
entrapment:
LE: "Are you low on money? Need to make some money to keep your house? Here move these kilos of coke for us and we will give you twenty thousand dollars!"
Random Non Drug Dealer: "I dunno, moving coke is illegal.....I probably shouldn't"
LE: "But think about your kids! You are about to lose your house! Come on you wont get caught!"
Random Non Drug Dealer: "I really would rather not....I have never transported drugs in anywhere near those amounts before! Just hooked up friends with weed on occasion...."
LE: "Come on it is totally safe and you really need the money!"
Ranom Non Drug Dealer: "Okay fine I guess I will just this once since I am in really hard times"
LE: "PUT YOUR HANDS UP MOTHERFUCKER"
that is pretty much what it takes to prove entrapment in USA. LE needs to pressure you into doing something that you have no history of doing and otherwise would not do.
Lol! I'm sorry (blushing) were you trying to be funny? But it is true - the Devil made me do it! I hate drugs! I would NEVER do that! [shhhhhh - okay, just a pinch though, eh?]
I'm going to stop reading this stuff here! I must be really gullible. I just can't think that way. Wouldn't have ever entered my mind had I not seen this. Of course I've never been busted before but I did write for NORMAL and Mothers Against Mandatory Minimums and for sure cops' entrap and for piddly amounts, but that's usually street busts. Or people dealing to kids. Like on 60 minutes and the such; cops pose as dealers of crack all the time and then bust the buyer, but never heard it about the home. That's why I wouldn't worry about that problem in SR.
I mean yeh, they know about it and yeh, they hate it, but the bottom line here is just a bunch of users using piddly amounts. They must look at the prices here that I see and realize no one can afford to buy much at these prices! Lol! (no offense intended vendors :). Cops usually only get riled up when people are making more than them and not paying taxes. Don't you think that most venders here just sell small amounts to buy what ever they want? The majority any way.
Shrug? What do I know though!
Oz
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To all the guys that constantly state stuff like: Aaaah the cops, they dun care about a single buyer of a little XYZ and stuff to this effect. You are aware, that at least in the US, police departments all over the country use task forces of up to 30 people using 10 to 12 cars and renting numerous hotel rooms to bust a couple guys that want to get a blowjob for a 20?
I mean, I understand where you come from, but then, this type of attitude is EXACTLY what gets people busted.
Naaah naaaah, the cops? for me and my 5g of weed...naaah never. I actually went to the slammer once, guess how often I have heard EXACTLY that story.
Naaaah me little fish? I thought they're after the big guys. Well guess what, every jailhouse in the US is FILLED TO THE BRIM with little fish, and hardly ever any really big guys.
I'm not here to monger paranoia or anything, but some people just appear to lack a healthy respect for the risks and probabilities what we're doing here.
True That! get careless get busted!
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The gambling enforcement agencies are going to be the ones that shut down Silk Road. Its sad to see but because there are so many lottos on Silk Road its only a matter of time now. Because illegal gambling attracts a lot of LE attention.
You may be correct about the 'lottos', I hadn't noticed them, but what I did notice my very first visit here was guns. It made me immediately loose some of the good feeling Silk Road gave me. Moving weapons out of SR to the new annonymous market 'The Armory' was very smart just from that stand point alone.
I am pro-guns and the right of all citizens to bear arms, BUT I would never have allowed any thing in/on SR that could even remotely be associated with violence. Want to get 'the man' on your ass? Keep fucking with guns in a peaceful arena like SR - personal drugs - that even the most red necked mom and pa have probably tried in their life and/or knows someone close to them that has tried them and are not that threatened by it.
Guns on the other hand - in the wrong hands - pisses every one off!
It's not my SR, but I would have never allowed them here in the first place. Lots of places to buy them legally every where!
Thanx for you time!
Oz
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agreed. the Armory was a smart move. im also a firm believer in the most interpratations of the constitution, including the right to bear arms, but i feel by seperating things like firearms, CP, ect it certainly cuts down on the attention we will receive by alphabet soup-nazi's. partculaly CP. in a recent theoretical conversation i had with a very awesome and experienecd Norml recommended lawyer regarding encryption, GPG, tor, ect, he didn't even know what tor or gpg was, lol. but only that the majority of court cases, and the primary target of federal attacks on computer-related crimes, involving encryption, ect seems to be CP, carders, ect. a good thing imo. lets keep it that way!
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Whoooa, hey, this got off track REAL quick. OP was talking about drugs!
And while it is a good point that anyone careless gets pinched, the given example (hookers) lend credence to the contrary - it's relatively easy to catch a hooker with a john, insofar as you (as a cop) walk in the room and bam, there it is.
But think about how much track-covering is involved in even the most Retardo of all sales on SR. Just think about YOUR purchases (if you've got any). Even if you didn't encrypt your address when you made your purchase, there is still a certain amount of shadiness involved, and while it may have been relatively easy to create on your part (install tor, create SR account, get BTC, find product, make purchase = not brain surgery..), it would be quite difficult for law enforcement to reverse the process and tie that shit to you.
Note: not IMPOSSIBLE. But ... How much time do you think They (you know, the unknown cadre of People Out To Get You, Specifically?) would devote to investigating that? I have training as a PI and a lot of knowledge of technoshit and I can tell you firsthand that most cops and investigators are WAY too lazy to learn how to do that shit FORWARD, much less learn to do it BACKWARD to find out who you are from ... what, exactly? A BTC chain?
Remember, even your encrypted address contains enough reasonable doubt that you wouldn't be automatically hanged, and it takes a GOOD lawyer to do so. I don't know how many of you have had the pleasure of being charged with a drug crime but here in the US (where we love to lock up our Humans), you almost certainly won't see a jury if you are charged with drug possession. And you almost certainly won't see a prosecutor worth his weight in . . . . . What's the cheapest thing there is?
Point : unless you're Scarface, the odds are in your favor. Sure They may come after you if you buy a kg of blow or something but... Really ... No.
Come on. How big is your ego that you think your two grams of pot is a blip on anybody's radar? Really.
Just my opinion. But I think Our Fearless Leader DPR would probably agree that the reward FAR outweighs the risk. . . Else why would SR exist? Seriously! Just think of the absolutely DAMNING effect even just ONE person saying "I GOT ARRESTED CUS OF THIS SHIT" would have.
I saw a post here a while ago saying that law enforcement wouldn't bust small-time buyers because it would blow their cover, and that instead they would build a name and then make BIG deals to bust BIG sellers/buyers/whatever. That seems very logical to me. Again, as I've said before, remember that cops aren't Terminators! They are people just like you and me!
Would *you* care if Your Friend Bill bought an eighth of weed off some website?
Stretch that out - how much would it take?
Keep that in mind. Obviously SR isn't without risk but . . . Just like with anything else . . .Be smart, be sane, be safe.
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Yes cops do not care about drug crimes and the only people in prison are Scarface level <sarcasm>. I don't give a fuck if my friend bill flips twenty kilos of MDMA does that mean the cops don't? Welcome to mirror imaging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_traps_for_intelligence_analysis
The most common personality trap, known as mirror-imaging,[2] is the analysts' assumption that the people being studied think like the analysts themselves.
And I know several people already who have been arrested for buying drugs from the internet, usually the result of an interception but in some cases it has been the result of a technical attack (for example hushmail handing over DVDs worth of unencrypted E-mail). Don't think that you are invincible or that nobody will bother to attack you those are two great attitudes that will result in you fucking up and being pwnt.
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Yes cops do not care about drug crimes and the only people in prison are Scarface level <sarcasm>. I don't give a fuck if my friend bill flips twenty kilos of MDMA does that mean the cops don't? Welcome to mirror imaging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_traps_for_intelligence_analysis The most common personality trap, known as mirror-imaging,[2] is the analysts' assumption that the people being studied think like the analysts themselves.
And I know several people already who have been arrested for buying drugs from the internet, usually the result of an interception but in some cases it has been the result of a technical attack (for example hushmail handing over DVDs worth of unencrypted E-mail). Don't think that you are invincible or that nobody will bother to attack you those are two great attitudes that will result in you fucking up and being pwnt.
I'm sure everyone is aware that at least in the US, tons and tons of people are locked up for relatively minor drug charges. I think people who keep saying "of course police care about minor drug charges, look how many people are locked up for them" are missing the point. It's not that they don't care about minor drug crimes, it's that this medium isn't worth their effort or time, when the same time could be put to use getting many more drug busts in person. I can see them trying to go after vendors, or large buyers that they suspect are selling, and possibly busting a few small time buyers just to prove a point or scare people, but in general, I just don't think they're going to bother actively hunting the typical SR user who is buying small amounts for personal use.
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What makes it harder for them to bust buyers on SR than IRL? They can still get vendor accounts and harvest customer data.
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What makes it harder for them to bust buyers on SR than IRL? They can still get vendor accounts and harvest customer data.
What's the point ?
You have the "us and them" attitude, which is just as faulty from a cognitive standpoint. They aren't out to get you. Nobody really cares about your gram of weed. The cops aren't your parents or something... Now, if they pull you over for drunk driving and find a gram of weed in your car, you are going to jail but it was because of the drunk driving not the weed (even though you'll certainly get charged for the weed). Those people you know who got arrested for a gram of weed or whatever didn't get investigated because of that - they did something else stupid.
As I've said on here before over and over, cops are just people like us, and they actually spend most of their time dealing with things like domestic disputes and stuff - things you *would* want cops dealing with. There's no Officer out there looking for those dastardly buyers of one gram of weed. Just because it's illegal doesn't mean they are Out To Get You. It's a vice crime. Nothing more.
Now if you are SELLING shit . . . Different story, because then you are involved in a bigger criminal enterprise. Think hooker vs. pimp. That's sort of what I was dancing around - I think LE would be way more likely to pose as a BUYER to try to catch a VENDOR than vice versa.
Anticipating the counter example of sting operations with cops posing as prostitutes, I have three more points to add before I stfu and gtfo :) :
1- It costs nearly nothing for the police to run a sting operation like that. Think about even just the man hours involved in doing that kind of hardcore policing on SR, and remember that (like everything else), law enforcement is a business. It's just not worth it.
2- LEOs aren't going to pose as a vendor then arrest You for buying One Gram Of Pot for Personal Use. Their cover would be blown right away. They'd be out to catch bigger fish. Much bigger fish.
3- The Broken Windows theory: the reason that cops do things like sting operations as prostitutes is a law enforcement tactic to fight against this theory, which explains that a shitty rundown environment breeds crime essentially because it looks like nobody cares enough to rally against it. Counterpoint is that if you clean the area up the crime disappears. It sounds dubious but it works: it explains (at least in part) the massive reduction in crime rates in NYC within the past twenty years. Areas of NYC that were cesspools were rebuilt, repainted, remodeled and renamed and now are chic places to live. "Chelsea," anyone?
So, the idea is that if there is a known hotspot for hookers, you start running sting operations and people get caught hiring hookers, word spreads, people stop going there, hookers go away. Now while the same would be true for IRL drug deals (and, in fact, it is), the fact is that We Are Legion. Just look how many members this forum has. Look how many vendors are on SR. In simple economic terms, it's just not worth the time and resources to go after the demand-end.
Again, supply end, different story!
So, while you do raise an interesting (and very true) point that people are in jail for minor drug crimes, I stand by what I said :)
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Also, This:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_traps_for_intelligence_analysis
was a very, very interesting read. Thank you for that, kmf:)
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What's the point ?
What is the point of the entire war on drugs? Everyone who isn't brainwashed by propaganda recognizes that the entire thing is a massive failure. As far as I have been able to determine, the point is a combination of enforcing traditional religious moral standards and providing employment and funding to large segments of society (prison industry, law enforcement, rehabs, drug testing companies, pharmaceutical companies, etc). Increasing police powers and power of the state are also points.
Sending joe blow to court ordered rehab and getting him on probation paying for piss tests is effective at meeting these goals. And Joe Blow has been sent to prison for small personal use amounts of drugs. The state does not like it when its peons defy them anyway.
You have the "us and them" attitude, which is just as faulty from a cognitive standpoint. They aren't out to get you.
Well I do think they are out to get me considering they have pwnt a few friends already. And I do have an us versus them attitude because last I checked it is us versus them, we are in an arms race, and the people who fuck up or fall behind get pwnt.
Nobody really cares about your gram of weed.
They probably don't care enough to go out looking for me just because I post that I have a gram of weed. But if they intercept it in the mail they could very well pwn me for it. If they find ten hits of MDMA coming to me in the mail why is that any different than if they find it in my car during a random traffic stop? Do you really think they are going to ignore it simply because they found it in an envelope addressed to me instead of in a baggie under my seat?
As I've said on here before over and over, cops are just people like us, and they actually spend most of their time dealing with things like domestic disputes and stuff - things you *would* want cops dealing with.
And gang bangers spend most of their time going to the grocery store and taking shits on the toilet but it doesn't mean they wont kill you in a drive by shooting. Also there are federal agencies that spend 100% of their time on drug law enforcement. And mail enforcement. And customs enforcement. And almost any local police department is going to have an entire narcotics unit that spends 100% of its resources on enforcing drug laws.
There's no Officer out there looking for those dastardly buyers of one gram of weed. Just because it's illegal doesn't mean they are Out To Get You. It's a vice crime. Nothing more.
No but there are officers out there looking to move up supply chains and they will bust the dude with one gram of weed to get to the dude with 28 grams to get to the next dude etc. SR protects from this if you look at it as an entirely isolated network, since buyers can't flip on sellers. But if you consider the fact that people on SR might be part of IRL networks also, then it gives police the same motivation to go after buyers to move up their IRL chains of supply. And even if you don't take targeted attacks into consideration, because they are less likely to be aimed at buyers, you also need to take dragnet attacks into consideration. I have zero doubt that buyers here could get caught up in dragnet operations and that customs isn't going to just ignore the fact that you tried to import MDMA even if it was only ten hits. They will probably just forward the case on to your local police department. There actually is a substantial amount of interagency cooperation and feds give local police leads all the time.
Now if you are SELLING shit . . . Different story, because then you are involved in a bigger criminal enterprise. Think hooker vs. pimp. That's sort of what I was dancing around - I think LE would be way more likely to pose as a BUYER to try to catch a VENDOR than vice versa.
But posing as a buyer to catch a vendor isn't going to be as effective as posing as a vendor to bust buyers. And if enough buyers are busted it will cause a chilling effect. I am sure LE have had this same thought process. Also hookers and pimps and johns are all busted. Cops set up elaborate sting operations that cost tens of thousands of dollars in man hours alone, just to bust a dozen dudes paying to get their dicks sucked.
Anticipating the counter example of sting operations with cops posing as prostitutes, I have three more points to add before I stfu and gtfo :) :
1- It costs nearly nothing for the police to run a sting operation like that. Think about even just the man hours involved in doing that kind of hardcore policing on SR, and remember that (like everything else), law enforcement is a business. It's just not worth it.
It costs as much as a seller account to harvest addresses on SR and forward them on to the interested local police department. Don't think that there are not communications channels in place between local police agencies because there are, especially for internet crimes, if a cop in Texas finds an IP address doing illegal shit in New York they will forward the information on to the NYPD and they know if NYPD finds such an IP address in Texas they will forward it on to them. There is substantial interagency cooperation and coordination at all levels of law enforcement.
2- LEOs aren't going to pose as a vendor then arrest You for buying One Gram Of Pot for Personal Use. Their cover would be blown right away. They'd be out to catch bigger fish. Much bigger fish.
Well they would likely gather addresses for a few months and then swoop in on everyone. It isn't like they need to immediately blow their cover. Simply knowing that you purchased 1 gram of weed from them three months ago is probably enough to get you raided today, and they will anticipate that you have other illegal drugs on you. using fake ID PO box that you rotate regularly could actually protect from this sort of gather addresses and later move in on them operation.
3- The Broken Windows theory: the reason that cops do things like sting operations as prostitutes is a law enforcement tactic to fight against this theory, which explains that a shitty rundown environment breeds crime essentially because it looks like nobody cares enough to rally against it. Counterpoint is that if you clean the area up the crime disappears. It sounds dubious but it works: it explains (at least in part) the massive reduction in crime rates in NYC within the past twenty years. Areas of NYC that were cesspools were rebuilt, repainted, remodeled and renamed and now are chic places to live. "Chelsea," anyone?
So, the idea is that if there is a known hotspot for hookers, you start running sting operations and people get caught hiring hookers, word spreads, people stop going there, hookers go away. Now while the same would be true for IRL drug deals (and, in fact, it is), the fact is that We Are Legion. Just look how many members this forum has. Look how many vendors are on SR. In simple economic terms, it's just not worth the time and resources to go after the demand-end.
This seems more like an argument for why they will target buyers than an argument against it, imo.
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All very sensible points. I think we just have a difference in opinion though, and it really is an opinion: I feel that LEOs would be way more focused on busting sellers than buyers (which is what I was getting at with the Broken Windows thing, btw) and you think that they'd be trying to do both.
I think I may have misunderstood originally and thought you were suggesting that they would be focused solely on picking up buyers (at the exclusion of picking up sellers) because they'd be setting up vendor accounts and busting buyers, but that's a good point that they'd be picking up the 1g guy to get to the 1oz guy to get further up the ladder.
I guess as always it's a matter of being smart and being sane - i.e., don't do anything stupid or crazy and you should be okay.
Also there's no amount of ghosting that is too much, so the rotating PO Box idea is a good one regardless of whether LEOs even have a clue what's going on.
... BTW didn't your link to the Wikipedia page earlier include something kind of suggesting interchange between law enforcement agencies would be all but useless? Using 9/11 as an example? There is cooperation but .... Honestly the NYPD cop is going to kick the TX cop in the head if TX cop calls to report an IP address of someone buying one gram of weed. "QUIT CALLIN' ME!!" :)
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From what I can tell, intelligence agencies have poor inter-agency cooperation and generally don't trust each other much.
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From what I can tell, intelligence agencies have poor inter-agency cooperation and generally don't trust each other much.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure it would be intelligence agencies handling the sort of thing we're talking about here because of the interstate issues involved, no? In the US anyway.
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Nah federal police agencies would be involved. If real intelligence agencies gave half a shit about SR it would be long gone, and anyone they wanted busted on it would be busted, customer or vendor. They don't concern themselves with SR level traffickers, and half the times they concern themselves with drug lord sized traffickers it is to carry out mutually beneficial smuggling operations with them.
Federal police do intelligence operations but are generally not considered intelligence agencies, other than maybe FBI. Intelligence agency is more like CIA, NSA, etc, federal police are more like ICE, DEA, etc. FBI is kind of a hybrid post 9/11. But even some local police agencies have intelligence units these days. And really traditional police work is essentially the same thing as human intelligence, they just are generally more restricted by the law in regards to what they can do. For example CIA HUMINT it is probably standard procedure for a sexy agent to fuck someone and start a relationship with them to covertly spy on them, but it is generally frowned upon for local police department to do such things in their undercover operations, although it has happened before (undercover police have started families with surveillance targets before....but it isn't standard procedure).
One of the characteristics of Local LE / Federal LE / Intelligence agency post 9/11 is the bluring of lines between these things though. This is generally recognized by libertarian minded people as 'not a good thing'. DEA has a massive international signals intelligence arm, but I dunno if it would be correct to consider them a SIGINT agency. I also tend to imagine that they are about as l33t at SIGINT as the FBI apparently is.
http://publicintelligence.net/wikileaks-cables-show-dea-has-become-international-spy-network/
http://federatedit.com/services/analyticsupport/dea-sigint
Project Profile – DEA Signals Intelligence Collection and Analysis (DEA SIGINT)
Federated provides expert and experienced Analytic services in the realm of collecting, analyzing, and reporting Signal Intelligence (SIGINT) data through the interception of information promulgated via radio and electronic transmissions. In this effort, Federated personnel monitor, translate, and interpret real time bi-lingual exchanges over related communications equipment such as High Frequency direction finding devices. Based on the raw data extrapolated from various transmissions, our team utilizes qualitative applications of this information and details these findings in tactical actionable intelligence reports. These reports are distributed in an interagency effort that includes Law Enforcement Agencies (LEA), Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Intelligence Community (IC) partners and Department of Defense (DOD) organizations to advance and promote shared missions.
Federated also contributes to the mission through temporary duty deployments to foreign and domestic locations in support of this operation. Throughout these operations, the duties performed include the conduct of communications intercept operations, site assessments, radio frequency evaluations and the testing of advanced technical equipment in mobile and fixed locations. Our Analysts have received 8 Superior Performance Awards, 7 Special Awards for “Life Saving Actions” and 22 Letters of Appreciation for their timely and accurate analysis of intercepted communications that directly led to thwarting transnational threats.
If the DEA actually had really good SIGINT people working for them, it would be safe to say that they can trace hidden services and do some serious damage against Tor. But even if they have the best people working for them, access to signals matters too. NSA can gather signals from IX's for their analysts, but DEA analysts would not have such access and would need to resort to other signals gathering techniques. So skill isn't the only thing involved, so is the ability to position yourself to gather signals in the first place.
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Interesting. All the tactics used by these agencies are probably so far ahead of what we as the public know about that they might border on sounding like madness at this point.
Also, good point saying if the real intelligence agencies really cared about SR we'd be toast. Also sad point, wahhh :(
... This all just makes me think of Bill Hader as Julian Assange : "Remember: no matter how I die . . . IT WAS MURDER!!!!" :)
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Maybe it's just me, but I think if LE is going to pose as a vendor, they're not going to scrounge up a few noobs and then peace out with their catch. They're going to be in it for the long haul and pose as a "trusted" vendor. collect addresses and stuff. Who knows what they can do with them after a certain amount of time has passed, but I wouldn't be surprised if the US pulls some retroactive law out of their ass just so they can snigger and say "gotcha" to all the SR buyers.
In the USA, retroactive laws (called "ex post facto" laws, AKA "laws made after the fact") are not legal. While a cop, prosecutor or judge may screw up the process of the law from time to time, the government can't create an ex post facto law. If they did, it would be un-created through the appeals process.
If you have heard the term "double jeopardy," it's kind of the same concept. Once the legal system says you are off scott free, you are. And if you do something that is legal, they can't go back and make it illegal later and retroactively apply it.
Ex post whato? Double dip? Query... I'm a sexual offender who has served his sentence, yet the state continues my confinement on civil.... okay, I'm just fucking with you..... don't wanna give my state away. Nice to read solid advice, keep it up.
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Maybe it's just me, but I think if LE is going to pose as a vendor, they're not going to scrounge up a few noobs and then peace out with their catch. They're going to be in it for the long haul and pose as a "trusted" vendor. collect addresses and stuff. Who knows what they can do with them after a certain amount of time has passed, but I wouldn't be surprised if the US pulls some retroactive law out of their ass just so they can snigger and say "gotcha" to all the SR buyers.
In the USA, retroactive laws (called "ex post facto" laws, AKA "laws made after the fact") are not legal. While a cop, prosecutor or judge may screw up the process of the law from time to time, the government can't create an ex post facto law. If they did, it would be un-created through the appeals process.
If you have heard the term "double jeopardy," it's kind of the same concept. Once the legal system says you are off scott free, you are. And if you do something that is legal, they can't go back and make it illegal later and retroactively apply it.
Ex post whato? Double dip? Query... I'm a sexual offender who has served his sentence, yet the state continues my confinement on civil.... okay, I'm just fucking with you..... don't wanna give my state away. Nice to read solid advice, keep it up.
For the sake of argument, let's assume you are "Bob" from "Townsville" in the state of "Statesaplace," and you are a convict of some crime, and you are no longer in jail but must comply with certain things to stay that way, such as drug tests, treatment, registration or restrictions on owning, I dunno, cats.
Conditions of release from prison are basically a civil contract between you and the prison system. They are usually not obligated to release you, but they do under those circumstances. In most cases, it's called "parole," but not in all cases and not in all states (it varies a lot, and if you get into other countries it gets even more complicated).
The short version is that if the prison says "you can leave now as long as you submit to ___ conditions for ____ amount of time," you can say "no," and stay in prison. Or you can say "yes," and waive your rights. Those laws are considered legit in this era, because it's a civil contract between you and the government rather than a conviction. You theoretically have a choice (not really, but ya know, theoretically).
"Ex post facto" means if they you get caught with aspirin tomorrow, which is legal, and then next week they ban it, they can't arrest you for what you were caught with last week. It was legal then. They would have to catch you with aspirin again for it to result in a conviction.
All this applies to the USA only, and more or less has not been accurate since the 1800s, but on paper it's still the law of the land.