Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: Moneymike on March 25, 2012, 06:20 pm
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Around 2000-3000 dollars. Would this be safe or will my account possibly get frozen once it gets to mtgox for suspicious activity or something in that nature?
Or would it just be safer to use dwolla to intersango? for a USA user
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I've got two answers for you. Pick whichever one you prefer :)
== Yes ==
One, I have deposited amounts that large many times. I've put more than 20k in through dwolla over the last 4 months because I'm like a kid in a candy store and want to try everything. So on that front, yes you're safe.
== LMFAO hell no! ==
On another front, I've done a lot of thinking about this and truthfully nothing about purchasing drugs on SR is safe. People like to say that BTC is untracable, and that TOR provides anonymity. Neither of these is true, they are blankets to make you feel comfy at night. Besides that, it's much less safe at various points.
The reason why SR is safe is obfuscation. Law enforcement people aren't generally computer specialists (not to say they cant be - but their chosen profession is law enforcement, not technology) so it would take a concerted effort to understand and subvert the technology. SR is also reasonably safe because we're just not worth it.
Here are several examples:
* If drugs show up to your house and the cops cared enough to catch you, they'd just knock on your door and ask. You could deny it and yell "I was framed!", but nobody is going to believe that someone had $500 worth of drugs sent to your house to frame you so they're not going to give up. It wont be hard to get a search warrant and check your bank account or find your stash.
* If you ask anybody who knows about this stuff what BTC is for they will say "illicit activity". Legally we can hide behind that because we're innocent until proven guilty, but nobody is going to believe you bought BTC because you wanted to purchase clothing in BTC. If law enforcement were interested enough they would just sniff around until they had the correct evidence.
* BTC is not untraceable by any means. In fact it's just the opposite, it's design is completely traceable. every transaction ever is recorded forever. I'm not joking, this concept has been around for decades in the world of databases and that's where the idea of a persistent log came from. The reason BTC is safe in theory is because it can be anonymous, you dont have to share your information to buy some. Unfortunately that's not how this works, nobody bothers to purchase BTC anonymously, they use dwolla and their bank account so people straight flush away the only safety BTC gives us.
* Laundering doesn't help. It makes the trail more complex but since every transaction is recorded it's just harder for a human to keep track of, but it would be no problem to write software to look through the block chain and see exactly where your money went. The only hope is that your transactions look so much like ordinary transactions that nobody realizes it hit the silk road. Sadly, since everybody knows that's what BTC is mostly used for nobody's going to think that for a second.
* TOR isn't secure. The reason is simple: When you downloaded tor did you audit the code and then compile it? Of course not. You, I, and everyone else just took the vidalia client and double clicked. We likely didnt even bother to check the signature (heck, i didnt even bother to check if it WAS signed, but if it was that sure wouldnt prove that the signature is a trusted source). If an agency sophisticated enough wanted to take this down all they would have to do is silently infiltrate (either through hacking, or throught he legal system) the TOR domain and replace the tor videlia client with one modified to record data. Since the vast majority (virtually all of us, even me) dont bother to check for such things we would be competely unaware. Once a substantial portion of the network was running this modified client it would be child's play to record the activity and determine who was talking to whom.
The only security all this provides is obscurity, which isn't security at all. The only reason it's safe is because we're not worth the effort.
-tim
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Thanks alot for your insight and information conrad! I do not plan on buying anything on SR i just plan to obtain bitcoins after its in dwolla for other reasons. The only thing is i do not want my money to be frozen and then have to show identity. Has anyone used intersango to buy such amount of bitcoins?
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If you don't mind, what other purpose do you have in mind? You don't have to be specific, I am just curious if there is some other large common use that I am not aware of.
I sure hope so, I would love to be schooled and have someone show me that bitcoin is mostly used for some other purpose than silk road (hopefully a non-illicit purpose). That would make a lot of my opinions change.
As of now my belief is that if you're buying bitcoins you're doing something illegal. It sucks, but it's true. ;/
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Well it really doesn't matter what im doing with the bitcoins. say i am just transferring btc from account to account for (illegal or legal purposes) nothing related to silkroad by the way. I kinda agree that people mostly use btc for illegal things. Dont know what else to say... but has anyone used intersango to buy btc then transfer to other accounts safely without having coins/money seized or frozen ? I think mtgox would be really sketchy since they freeze to many accounts
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I disagree with Tinytim.
The average police officer does not know what Bitcoins are.
A close friend of mine is a police officer, and more specifically, a K9 Unit operator.
I've had many talks with him about my legal business, of buying and selling bitcoins to people. He didn't even know what bitcoins were. I was pulled over once carrying $4000 in cash to the bank to put on MtGox, and the officer asked what all this money was for, and where it came from. I politely told him I buy and sell bitcoins for people, and he let me go.... with a speeding ticket. He didn't even know what bitcoins were.
Yes bitcoins are used for illegal purposes. But in short, they are a digital commodity that people can exchange outside of regulated currency - this is not illegal.
Tiny, as far as your idea that nobody would believe somebody sent $500 worth of drugs to your house to frame you - this is in correct. A few months back, and several hundreds of dollars worth of cocaine arrived at my house, the cops knocked at my door, and tried to get me to sign, I declined. They kept trying to talk to me and question me, and I simply stuck with my idea that somebody tried to frame me - because I honestly did not order that to my house, and I do have quite a bit of enemies. The cops went away some weeks of trying to talk to me. Not to mention I even told the cops I run a legal business of buying and selling bitcoins, they questioned me about any illegal involvement I may have with bitcoins and drugs and I simply said I have no connection to anything like that. I've probably moved $50,000 in USD to MtGox, to buy bitcoins in the past year or 2. MtGox never bothers me and I never had any problems with them - All I had to do was get verified, and trusted status on their site by providing my legal identity and some notorized documents and I have transaction limits of up to $100,000 USD and 50,000 bitcoins per month.
Even if you signed for a package that showed up, it is not grounds that you ordered the package. Do you know how easily somebody could ship something illicit to a Politicians house, and trick the cops to control deliver it without getting involved, then have that politician stupidly sign for it? If cops could use a mere signature as grounds for saying you're trafficking drugs, nobody would stay in office.
SR is like the The Pirate Bay.... it is highly illegal for any American to download certain American softwares on it, but it is completely legal for them to download freeware and shareware off ThePirateBay. Thinking in terms of this, it is not illegal to be on the silk road, nor is it illegal to purchase on the silk road. There are many things you can purchase on the silk road, for far cheaper prices, that are NOT illegal in many countries.
You are doing nothing illegal as long as you are not purchasing something that is illegal in your country. Same goes that you are doing nothing illegal on ThePirateBay as long as you do not download something that is illegal in your country.
I do not break the law, I do not order drugs, or anything that is illegal in my country. Nor have they ever asked who my customers(buying bitcoins) are because none of my transactions were over $10,000, let alone, none of the individual transactions in a single week were over $2000. Nor do I ask my customers what they use their bitcoins for. I simply provide a service and make sure I stay within the law.
Buying and selling bitcoins is how I make my living. There is nothing illegal about it. I've had my run ins with cops about my bitcoin stuff, they didn't know about it or care. I've had people send drugs to my house, etc. I'm fine. I still do my bitcoin business.
Use PGP, secure your computer, leave no traces of SR on it, and do not sign for packages. To be safe, for anything that you can not cover up - have a legitimate legal reason for why you are doing it. I buy and sell bitcoins, I pay taxes on my profits, I am fully within the law. They couldn't do shit to me, despite them finding drugs come to my house once before.
Learn from what I have typed here, and be smart. Always tie up all loose ends.
I am not encouraging anyone to break the law, or use the legal system to use loopholes in the law. This post is simply to show you that someone can safely be involved in bitcoins, and not have cops up their ass, while staying completely legal.
*on a side note, unless you are buying 20-50 pounds of illicit substance, nobody is going to bother putting forth the effort to trace your bitcoin transactions.
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I disagree with Tinytim.
The average police officer does not know what Bitcoins are.
A close friend of mine is a police officer, and more specifically, a K9 Unit operator.
I've had many talks with him about my legal business, of buying and selling bitcoins to people. He didn't even know what bitcoins were. I was pulled over once carrying $4000 in cash to the bank to put on MtGox, and the officer asked what all this money was for, and where it came from. I politely told him I buy and sell bitcoins for people, and he let me go.... with a speeding ticket. He didn't even know what bitcoins were.
Yes bitcoins are used for illegal purposes. But in short, they are a digital commodity that people can exchange outside of regulated currency - this is not illegal.
Tiny, as far as your idea that nobody would believe somebody sent $500 worth of drugs to your house to frame you - this is in correct. A few months back, and several hundreds of dollars worth of cocaine arrived at my house, the cops knocked at my door, and tried to get me to sign, I declined. They kept trying to talk to me and question me, and I simply stuck with my idea that somebody tried to frame me - because I honestly did not order that to my house, and I do have quite a bit of enemies. The cops went away some weeks of trying to talk to me. Not to mention I even told the cops I run a legal business of buying and selling bitcoins, they questioned me about any illegal involvement I may have with bitcoins and drugs and I simply said I have no connection to anything like that. I've probably moved $50,000 in USD to MtGox, to buy bitcoins in the past year or 2. MtGox never bothers me and I never had any problems with them - All I had to do was get verified, and trusted status on their site by providing my legal identity and some notorized documents and I have transaction limits of up to $100,000 USD and 50,000 bitcoins per month.
Even if you signed for a package that showed up, it is not grounds that you ordered the package. Do you know how easily somebody could ship something illicit to a Politicians house, and trick the cops to control deliver it without getting involved, then have that politician stupidly sign for it? If cops could use a mere signature as grounds for saying you're trafficking drugs, nobody would stay in office.
SR is like the The Pirate Bay.... it is highly illegal for any American to download certain American softwares on it, but it is completely legal for them to download freeware and shareware off ThePirateBay. Thinking in terms of this, it is not illegal to be on the silk road, nor is it illegal to purchase on the silk road. There are many things you can purchase on the silk road, for far cheaper prices, that are NOT illegal in many countries.
You are doing nothing illegal as long as you are not purchasing something that is illegal in your country. Same goes that you are doing nothing illegal on ThePirateBay as long as you do not download something that is illegal in your country.
I do not break the law, I do not order drugs, or anything that is illegal in my country. Nor have they ever asked who my customers(buying bitcoins) are because none of my transactions were over $10,000, let alone, none of the individual transactions in a single week were over $2000. Nor do I ask my customers what they use their bitcoins for. I simply provide a service and make sure I stay within the law.
Buying and selling bitcoins is how I make my living. There is nothing illegal about it. I've had my run ins with cops about my bitcoin stuff, they didn't know about it or care. I've had people send drugs to my house, etc. I'm fine. I still do my bitcoin business.
Use PGP, secure your computer, leave no traces of SR on it, and do not sign for packages. To be safe, for anything that you can not cover up - have a legitimate legal reason for why you are doing it. I buy and sell bitcoins, I pay taxes on my profits, I am fully within the law. They couldn't do shit to me, despite them finding drugs come to my house once before.
Learn from what I have typed here, and be smart. Always tie up all loose ends.
I am not encouraging anyone to break the law, or use the legal system to use loopholes in the law. This post is simply to show you that someone can safely be involved in bitcoins, and not have cops up their ass, while staying completely legal.
*on a side note, unless you are buying 20-50 pounds of illicit substance, nobody is going to bother putting forth the effort to trace your bitcoin transactions.
Thank you for that bro. I just dont have time to get verified and dont feel like doing so i simply trying to figure out if intersango is a good method to purchase coins in such amounts with out having them fucked with , and looking for personal experiences of any kind with them. I hear alot of bullshitz from mtgox, they dont sound reliable to me and my loot
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"I disagree with Tinytim."
No, actually you agreed with me on pretty much every point.
The only place you disagreed was that purchasing bitcoin isn't an indication that you're going to buy drugs.
But let's keep in mind that you are arguing with me ON the silk road forums. Nobody reading this believes for a second that cocaine wasn't ordered by you because the entire purpose of being on the silk road is to purchase drugs using bitcoins and have them shipped to your home. Since you are clearly here for that purpose it is much more likely that it was intentional. Anybody who believes the cocaine arrived in error is naive, to say the least.
Furthermore, given that you are here to purchase or sell drugs no rational person would believe that your BTC business is legitimate. Deny it all you want, nobody is that stupid.
Taking the ubsurd lies out of your argument all that is left is that we are protected only by ignorance which is what I said in the first place. Thank you for agreeing with me. The only reason you are not in jail right now is because your local police department is not educated.
What you are doing is clasping on to a thin veil of security. What I am telling you is that veil is made of toilet paper.
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For that matter, why did you write this disclaimer:
I am not encouraging anyone to break the law, or use the legal system to use loopholes in the law"
If this system is secure you dont need it. You must realize that it is not secure to have.
It doesn't matter either way, the truth is that your disclaimer offers you no legal protection anyhow. All you are doing is demonstrating just how misguided your beliefs are.