Silk Road forums
Discussion => Newbie discussion => Topic started by: RudolfRassendyll on April 17, 2013, 06:34 pm
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Hello everyone.
I'm slowly working my way up to 50 and figured I'd try to get a slow discussion going on something .
I've been an Opiate user/abuser for several years. For the past year or so I've settled on Suboxone, which is really great for maintaining a productive life and still catching a little buzz every day. I'm usually around the 2mg a day mark, and SR prices puts that to about probably 6 or 7 bucks a day, which isn't bad for an opiate addiction. I really only use SR for opiates, although I ordered weed in the past. Opiates are my thing.
I feel like it does help me be in a good mood every day to be on Suboxone. Most people find me very pleasant and find my company very agreeable. Without Suboxone I feel like I'm on the outside of society, being someone who never really 'fit in' or understood why people were the way they were. Suboxone lets me be a normal person... as normal as I'd get. I'm almost impervious to being over-emotional or over-sensitive in any way and my mind works amazingly rationally. But it's been around 3 years since daily sobriety was even an option (without sickness involved) so I don't know how much my personality is just changed or if it is just a chemical boost to my mood. I haven't gotten any 'higher' than suboxone will allow for over a year, no smack, pills, no other opiates (some weed, but to me that doesn't mean much, and literally less than 10x).
Despite my relationship with Suboxone and me crediting it with a lot of good mood... I feel somewhat wrong to be leaning so heavily on it. If ever Silk Road were to go down, I would be almost certainly doomed to around a month of horrible WD that has every possibility of destroying many good parts of my life. So I have been trying for many months to lower my dosage and slowly step off... with almost no success. When I get down to 1mg a day or so, it just becomes too tempting to double up one day and have a great day, and too easy to justify. So I'm still at 2mg per day, no closer to any exit strategy.
Has anyone here been through something similar? What strategies have been helpful in the willpower department to help with tapering? And for anyone who ends up CTing, what has helped you stay functional through the WD? Here are some things I've used to relieve a withdrawal symptoms temporaril:
-- I've ordered Kratom online and used to to relieve WD for a period of 4-6 hours. Nothing amazing, and honestly this is pretty much an opiate so I'm not sure if your not doing damage if getting clean is your longterm goal. But if you sometimes have a day or so between your opiates, Kratom is great for keeping you upright in that amount of time.
-- Tramadol. Available on the clearnet (last I checked) to some people, I've used Tramadol on a taper schedule to quit opiates successfully in the past. I noticed a near complete relief of physical symptoms and almost no mental relief, incredible exhaustion and apathy. Tapered from 400mg/ day to 50mg/day in about 3 months, quit at the end with no more WD. For me the taper was easy because Tramadol never got me high, but if you enjoy it recreationally it might not work for you to taper with. Also be careful and do your reading because it doesn't play well with other chemicals.
-- Mentally, if you find yourself in severe withdrawal, I find this tip to be helpful. Once you start tossing and turning at night, GET UP. Don't try to sleep if you can't, because its a sure way to break yourself down mentally. I've spent days in a row sleeping for 2 hours or so (and considering myself lucky for that) and reading, doing yoga, watching movies or something the rest of the night. Still tired as all hell, but you will be no matter what, and not having the frustration involved with tossing and turning is really very helpful.
-- Internet forums where other people are WDing I found great. One was called subsux.com and reading through other people's experiences and successes was another great mental strategy, even if I was only going through WD waiting for my next dosage with no intentions of quitting.
I've heard of a million other tips and strategies, but I found those are the only ones that ever work for me. Some people swear by loperimide, but I've never gotten any relief from it. Benzos seem to be a little helpful, but I lead such an active life I can't really take the zonk-out involved with benzos and still survive.
So what have you used? Has anyone ever held down a job in severe WD? What were your strategies?
Has anyone ever had experience with clonidine? Does it bring you to like a baseline free of WD or is it just a partial symptom reliever?
If you were going to quit opiates and had SR as a resource to make it as painless as possible, what would your strategy be?
Thanks guys,
RR
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Very interested to hear some replies.
Same boat, op. Except I am on opiates and not suboxone...but regardless, I do feel as though it has made me a more pleasant, happy person. I'm not nearly as depressed as I used to be (and at this point, it's not even about getting high-it's more about mood maintenance and not wd of course)
Anyway.
Excited to see what others say.
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Might as well weigh in on this.
I did all up 4 years on Subutex and got clean, relapsed after a couple of years and did Methadone (2nd tme) and took 2 years again, but have to take the final stages much MUCH slower.
The reality is, if your honest with yourself nd you are still (even just rarely) going to use, Methadone at least isn't an antagonist and will mean opiates still work.
As far as WD, well, yes, I have been to work in every and all stages of WD and DEFINITELY do not rec it, if you can't get time off sick, then don't do it. Even rapid detox from done or subutex is a bad idea, esp if your job lends itself to ppl noticing your not ok. Not worth losing your job, since that is important to getting better and reentering society as a "nrml" person again.
All in all, its sucks to say this, and many don't agree but Methadone works best for me, if you have a definite will and want to do it fast subutex has its place, but for me, after 12 years, I'd rather have the "back up" that methadone gives you that subutex doesn't.
Either way, its just a fcuked situation and about the hardest thing you'll ever do in your life, so approach it with that in mind, getting clean, even if you relapse is a MAJOR achievement, that anyone having gone through can appreciate, but no one else can ("why dont you just stop taking the drugs?" - retards).
All in all, I ended up taking a job away and removed from old friends and the plethora of dealers, I did it MUCH easier than it ever was in my home city.
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SaintGab: I agree on the depression part. I forgot to even mention that at the beginning, but opiates are by far the best anti-depressant I've ever experienced, to the point of instantly being 'normal'. Ceasing would mean dealing with my mental problems that I've never dealt with, which is yet another reason on the 'against' side of the argument.
Tell: So you went Sub ----> Done ----> clean? When you detoxed from Sub the first time, how did it go? What was your strategy? Same for Done, and was it easier to detox from Sub or Done? I've actually steered clear of Done because getting clean has been a goal all along (just constantly pushed back) and I heard it was so much harder with the done that I never wanted to switch over, even though it may be more cost-effective. I've heard too many people say "Methadone is a life sentence". Totally agreed that it's the hardest thing ever. Especially with long-term opiates it seems so a different beast. I've thought about switching to short acting opiates and then detoxing from them, but ended up thinking I'd just use it as an excuse to get high all the time and do more damage than good.
Thanks for your replies, guys. I'm thinking we can get a lot of opinions and advice on this topic here. Every opiate use has their strategies and stories.
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Yeah, I didnt switch from subs to done, I got clean both times.
As long as you accept doing it fast is hard, and this all depends on dose, but over a year I got down til my dose was so low its almost not there. Like 2.5mg.
The reason ppl call it a life sentence is 90% of ppl on done, choose that over subutex as they don't wan't to seriously stop, and like having it as a fall back, for when they run out of money/ want a break. If your serious, gradual reduction works ok for both, and its just a completely fucked sleep cycle for 3 - 5 weeks once you get really low/ stop, as well as restlessness.
I suggest arranging it so when you stop, you are somewhere where theres no work and you couldn't get on if you tried, at least the first two weeks.
Yeah, having said that I still play with it once a month on average, I fear I always will, but thats managable in my eyes and I'm in no risk of having a habit again.
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Sounds like you might benefit from some ayahuasca. Look up the many cases of severe heroin addicts doing ayahuasca once and never doing heroin again. I've never been through it myself, but apparently the experience kicks your ass a little bit (which is usually what we need in these situations) and then provides you with an understanding which which will transcend your habits. It's not the physical properties of the medicine which enable heroin addicts to quit cold turkey, it's the mental aspects. From what I understand, it's like doing the ultimate all natural anti-depressant, because the understanding of yourself and your life stays with you after the experience, and that is what enables you to stop doing what no longer serves you, and in fact, the ayahuasca is said to spell things out for you so profoundly that you won't really have a choice about it as this new understanding integrates with your personality. If anything you are engaged in does not serve you in a constructive way, ayahuasca will let you know, and let you know to a degree that doesn't allow you to do it anymore.
There's plenty of info online. Look into it more if it interests you. And of course, it looks like you can get yourself a nice ayahuasca brew kit right here on SR :)
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I did the Suboxone taper and it took me about 14 months. I started at one 8mg film per day. The key to the taper is to reduce the dosage very slowly. When I mean slowly, I mean like 0.25mg per step until you get down to 1mg per day, and then 0.125mg per step until you get down to 0. If you are using the pills you should seriously consider switching to the films which are much easier to divide and control the dose. When I would reduce the dose I would stay at the new dosage for about 7 to 10 days. At the very end I was cutting the 2mg film into 16 tiny little pieces. It is a pain in the ass to cut them that small but it is definitely feasible. Once I got down to one 2mg film per day, I think my taper from there went something like this: 2mg > 1.75mg > 1.5mg > 1.25mg > 1mg > 0.875mg > 0.750mg > 0.625mg > 0.500mg > 0.375mg > 0.250mg > 0.125mg. As I said, I stayed at each step for about 7 to 10 days, so using that schedule you are looking at about 120 days. Believe it or not, I could tell a difference at each step but it was VERY mild. I only felt a little tired and depressed. When I finally finished the taper and stopped taking the Subs altogether I felt a little depressed and had a lack of energy for about a month. I did some research and got my Doc to prescribe some Wellbutrin which is an antidepressant that helps boost dopamine and that helped out quite a bit. I think the problem with Suboxone is that people don't realize just how powerful of an opiate it really is. I can't remember the exact numbers but on a mg per mg basis when compared to morphine it is something like 100 times more powerful. So you have to reduce the dose very gradually in very small increments like I did. I hope that helps. If you have any more questions just send me a message.
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dont switch to benzos, after about a month those become about as tough as opiates to get off of. if you can get your hands on 5-10 of the 10mg valiums to get yourself through the first few days, or a couple of xanax bars, by all means do it though - they will just knock you out and get you through the toughest part, which is the first few days. which is what you will need help with the most
there will be not much to do besides suffer while you are awake and detoxing, try to keep yourself distracted, smoke some weed, try to sleep as much as you can, remember to stay hydrated. drink gatorades or water, in small amounts. try to eat small meals. if tramadol or codeine help you ween off of it, that may be good, but that 'weening off' strategy usually doesn't work in the long run, it just justifies continuing to use - which is not what your OP wanted
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RonJeremy: Was there anything in particular that helped with limiting your suboxone doses? I think that way is the best way, but I've had so much trouble with justifying extra suboxone for (insert any reason here).
I know there's no magic solution, and you just have to stick with it, but if anyone has tips for keeping to a taper schedule that would be great info too.
In William S. Burrough's book, "Junky", he talks about the "chinese taper" in which you water down your stash so that your taking less and less every day... I forget the specifics. But he talks about how you always justify a little extra... then your almost out so you figure go out with one last hurrah... just always there's some way to justify extra to yourself. And it really is true in the minds of most opiate addicts I think, that there's always this devil on your shoulder saying "Hey. You should totally take more. Remember how great being really high is? Isn't feeling great great?"
Eighty: I've found weed to be a mixed bag in intense WDs. Usually it doesn't help me sleep, and sometimes it just brings out a massive amount of anxiety and makes things that much worse. Still, I've heard others get much relief from it, and I'm not a regular weed smoker anymore so it tends to produce anxiety in me whenever I smoke it under any circumstances.
Has anyone ever switched from LTO to STO and successfully had an easier WD??
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TR0N: I wanted to reply to your Ayahuasca suggestion and forgot to in my last post. I've always believed there was something magical in hallucinogens... I remember playing a game with my friends when we were younger where you would tap into your friend's brain and 'guess' something you had no way of knowing. Most commonly we'd do what color/pattern briefs are you wearing [not gay], and it worked with a surprising frequency.
However, I do feel that once I really got into opiates, and the dawn of youth left me, hallucinogens lost a lot of their magic. I did shrooms back in december... first psychedelic in forever, and it just felt different, like I was experiencing without being effected, like watching a movie with all of my senses. Still enjoyable, but no brain re-wiring like I used to get in the past. I tried to get into where my brain was all junked up but ended up only wanting to listen to music and watch the insides of my eyelids.
Still, I have heard good things about huasca, and I imagine it's different from other pyshcedelics. I checked out the road's huasca when I read your post (waiting now for btc to clear) and it's doable, would just need to clear a few days and find someone to help me tap into things, an old buddy or something. Thanks for the suggestion though, it's a really good one.
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Never tried sub. I've kicked opiates twice. Both times using Cimetidine, Loperamide, Clonidine, and Doxylamine Succinate. So basically I start off with about 3 Cimetidine about an hour before my Lope. Then 60mg Loperamide. Though I have seen others use up to 100mg a day. If I'm really anxious I pop 1-2 0.1 Clonidine but I generally only need them for a few days. At night to sleep I take 4-6 Doxylamine Succinate and generally get about 4-6 hours of sleep which for withdrawal is pretty good. I also throw in a few senna tabs and 2 colace everyday to counteract the Lope, and drink some extra water to keep the plumbing working ;) All of this is OTC except Clonidine, if you have a wallyworld you gan get 144 (2mg) lope for like 8.98$ and the Cimetidine is $5 for 60 pills, you get 32 doxy for $4. Ive seen some people use benadryl for sleep but that has always made my restless legs way worse. Clonidine I ganked from work but Ive seen it for sale on SR. I taper the lope every other day til I'm down to none. The first few days on this regime withdrawal is super minimal and then non-existent for me except the mental aspect. I think a few days with benzos would be super helpful.....I just never had the opportunity to score them when I've quit.
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I got clean with suboxone. It was years ago, so I can't remember the exact dosages/taper.
It came down to being willing to get through the withdrawals (because there were still some at the end). There's also a cognitive/behavioral component that can't be overlooked. 12 steps suck, but they're one thing to latch onto if you need a cane.
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Might as well throw my .02 BTC out there. I had been addicted to oxycontin for 4 years (mainly due to easy access because of my Dad being prescribed them) and just recently kicked the habbit. I've only been clean for around 2 months now, and I know that doesn't seem like a long time but its a great achievement for me. I know this probly won't work for everyone but, when I discovered The Silk Road I immediately got interested in psychedelics. So I jumped at the chance to order some LSD and magic mushrooms. After the third or so time of doing LSD and the second time of doing magic mushrooms I can honestly say I don't even crave oxycontin anymore! Yesterday I drove my moms van to school and noticed she had left a whole bottle of 120 oxycontin 60mgs in the console. If that happened a few months back I would've raped that whole bottle! LSD and magic mushrooms are an enlightening experience, but I didn't know they had the power to allow me to kick my evil opiate addiction too. Hope this helps!!!
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MXE (and maybe also ket) seem to have worked for some heavy opiate addicts. I think many share their success with mxe on opi wd on bluelight.
Also switching to loperamid for a period seem to work wonders when tapred properly.
Maybe benzo if you havent had probs with it before, can get a weeks supply and make sure you dont eat more than necessary for max 1-2weeks.
And then theres Ibogaine, but thats a whole diff story ;)
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RonJeremy: Was there anything in particular that helped with limiting your suboxone doses? I think that way is the best way, but I've had so much trouble with justifying extra suboxone for (insert any reason here).
I know there's no magic solution, and you just have to stick with it, but if anyone has tips for keeping to a taper schedule that would be great info too.
I never got much of a buzz from taking a Sub, the only thing it really did for me in that regard was to give me a little energy boost, so I didn't usually justify taking an extra dose unless I felt that I might relapse back to OC's. As far as tips for sticking with it, I would say that the best thing to do is to develop a plan like I did in terms of gradual dose reduction and number of days. So like when I got down to 1mg I pretty much decided that from that point on that I was going to reduce the dose by .125mg every 7 days starting on a Monday. So it was easy to remember that the following Monday I had to drop down again, and the Monday after that drop down again, and so on. There were times when I got through the 7 days and I just felt like I could not make the next step down so I just decided to maintain that dose for another 3 or 4 days which is where the "7-10 days" part came in. I tried to stay vigilant at each step and at least maintain myself at the lower dose and not go back up to a higher dose which was sometimes hard but seemed to help. Another interesting aspect of tapering off opiates is that your testosterone levels must rebound at each dose reduction because I would be horny as hell and would attack my old lady in bed and give her the high hard one. That in itself was somewhat of a motivator. Lol! I know it is very tough man but it can be done. I can not stress enough with Suboxone though that you taper it down very gradually. Like I said, my last dose level was 0.125mg (1/16th of a 2mg film) and I still felt some slight discomfort.
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its rough
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I did subs for bout 3 yrs. I think they're very good for helping stay clean, One thing they do is make it a pain in the ass if you wanna cheat and give yourself a day to get high, because of the opiate blocker part, I always had to stop subs for 4 days B4 I could get a buzz on. That 4 days varies for different people but for me, that was 4 days of withdrawel all for getting high once, it just waswn't worth it, although I bstill did it every once in a while. I think I fucked up staying on them for so many years, If I ever do it again I'd try to jump on them and get off quick, maybe 3 months.
Another thing for me personally, is Sub has horrible WD's . Maybe not quite as intense as real , getcha high opoids, but, the freaking WD's just lingered and lingered.
So, my opinion, is Subs work but yer better ofrf using them as a short term deal.
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Can only speak as someone who reduced as intended and successfully came of done and subutex that I found Subutex WD worse than methadone.
Here they are the same price so there was no other factor swaying my decision.
There was a clear 3 years in the middle, before I screwed up, so not like I switched one for the other.
I'd consider whether your likely to successfully NEVER touch opiates again once your on your chosen program, if the answer is no, then either is fine. If the answer is maybe, subutex is a nightmare.
Methadone allows you to be a normal member of society and hold down a job, mortgage etc etc and have the fall back that if you ever do mess up, you don't have to STOP for 3 or 4 days (thereby ruining all progress to date) to make it work.
Its a hard thing, but after 10 years I'm a little better at understanding myself, what my triggers and drivers are and it enables slightly colder realism on where your at.
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@RudolfRassendyll : very interesting. Glad you liked the suggestion, and yes, all my research about ayahuasca indicates there is something indeed special about it. Just make sure you do your own research and know exactly what you are in store for so as to best prepare and get the most out of it. I wish you luck, and if you do decide to give it a go be sure to let us know how it goes!