Silk Road forums

Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: harharhar on February 03, 2013, 07:38 am

Title: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: harharhar on February 03, 2013, 07:38 am
I haven't been on the road too long, but I have noticed a pretty alarming trend of "lost packages" or "must have got lost", without customs letters or anything remotely as proof for goods being sent. 

My question;
Why doesn't SR require vendors to use a tracking number?

Packages just flat don't get lost or taken, except for 1-1,000,000 type shit.  Atleast, not the rate people post about it happening here (WITHOUT customs letters, etc). 

Customer buys, money goes in to escrow
Vendor packages, gets number, puts it in to SR
SR checks if its been used before, and if its valid tracking number (they all have known formats--plus api's to check them against)

Rest of the process is normal.  They key difference here is that it prevents the seller from getting scammed since the tracking says its there, which SR can rule in favor of the seller pretty quick.  On the other side, it prevents the buyer from getting scammed /selectively scammed, because it requires the vendors to show proof of shipment.

Anyway, just wondering why tracking has not been a requirement, which number checking.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: northsouth on February 03, 2013, 07:50 am
Because tracking is more expensive, and might also raise a red flag with customs. Many customers do not want this, some customers want it, some vendors require it, some vendors don't offer it. I see no reason to make it obligatory.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: zerik on February 03, 2013, 08:19 am
There was a thread a while back where someone mentioned that vendors sent out fake customs letters instead of product earning them 1/2 the money for doing nothing.

I was surprised that was not required also. It is the only way a vendor could least prove he/she mailed something. My guess is smart vendors can prove they mailed out a package to the address given to them.
I sold on auction sites and never lost a package. I have been suspicious about this to.

Cause in some cases could be legit but others either the seller or buyer screwed up.

Unless Sr does a good job investigating I don't know how they could determine who is at fault for the loss.

I don't see tracking as a flag esp for domestic priority. Isn't unusual at all these days. Guess if either buyer or seller doesn't want it than they have to assume a certain amount of risk.

 
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: harharhar on February 03, 2013, 06:22 pm
Yeah, I don't see it as a flag either.  Almost the opposite, I would think.  I don't think they sit around and say "hmm, tracked package, lets sniff it"

I realize its more expensive, but when you are purchasing $1k of goods (at a good price, usually), I am pretty sure just about everyone would be willing to cough up $10 more or whatever to ensure their package made it. 

The only thing I can really understand as an apprehension is if the buyer had to sign.  I still think you are safe when you are signing, especially if its the usual postal worker (they have set routes, I know mine by name), 

Essentially, I wish we would see more / all vendors use some sort of tracking for packages.  This would solve virtually all disputes about shipping.  As someone above stated, I have never had a single USPS package lost since I have ordered stuff from the internet, and sold stuff on auction sites.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: Trappy on February 03, 2013, 07:48 pm
I'm with the OP.

This selective scamming thing has been around since SR first came about. Its about time it ended.


Fuck anyone who won't provide tracking.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: flaxceed on February 04, 2013, 06:26 am
I'm with the OP.

This selective scamming thing has been around since SR first came about. Its about time it ended.


Fuck anyone who won't provide tracking.

I am tempted to agree.  Maybe if someone wants no tracking they can select a "no recourse" option. 
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: grdr on February 04, 2013, 02:11 pm
Don't let them take advantage of you if first order doesn't show up request reship with tracking or proof that it was shipped or reship with a proof. Unregistered packages tend to get "lost" - postmans stealing them. I used to order for a long tijme and not drugs about 1/5 - 1/4 unregistered packages went missing.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: kushkush on February 05, 2013, 04:47 am
theres always a risk
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: BlarghRawr on February 05, 2013, 05:00 am
Domestic packages get seized without any form of letter.

But yes, no tracking = is scamming.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: zlave on February 05, 2013, 01:39 pm
Glad I read this, thanks for the warning.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: fuckingACE on February 05, 2013, 07:50 pm
Hi,
 
I am a vendor that offers tracking for an additional fee on larger orders. >5g opium >50g hash.
There are two things that should be considered when making this option mandatory.

1. cost, the shipped with tracking option for US is more than the price of gram of product and for that reason is only suitable to large orders and only then if the customer is willing to pay extra, it may surprise you but even on 100g or 200g of hash customers are unwilling to pay an extra 12 dollars

2. Security, from certain countries in the EU you can only get a tracking number if the parcel has a signature required on delivery. This is a huge security risk as you won´t know if it is a controlled delivery or actual package.

ACE
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: Slicksuit on February 05, 2013, 11:18 pm
I haven't been on the road too long, but I have noticed a pretty alarming trend of "lost packages" or "must have got lost", without customs letters or anything remotely as proof for goods being sent. 

My question;
Why doesn't SR require vendors to use a tracking number?

Packages just flat don't get lost or taken, except for 1-1,000,000 type shit.  Atleast, not the rate people post about it happening here (WITHOUT customs letters, etc). 

Customer buys, money goes in to escrow
Vendor packages, gets number, puts it in to SR
SR checks if its been used before, and if its valid tracking number (they all have known formats--plus api's to check them against)

Rest of the process is normal.  They key difference here is that it prevents the seller from getting scammed since the tracking says its there, which SR can rule in favor of the seller pretty quick.  On the other side, it prevents the buyer from getting scammed /selectively scammed, because it requires the vendors to show proof of shipment.

Anyway, just wondering why tracking has not been a requirement, which number checking.

I sent drugs in the mail before I was a vendor here, I've been doing it for a while.. Anyway, out of every package (all with almost identical packaging) the only one that ever got caught, was the one and only one I've ever sent tracked.

I can't tell you if it was down to the tracking or not, but it sure looks that way.

Plus, that means the vendor has to go in to a post office with CCTV, and in some places ID needs to be shown and what not. It just adds another risk.

At the end of the day, SR works fine the way it is. "If it aint broke, don't fix it."
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: NOTspacecase on February 05, 2013, 11:21 pm
Domestic packages get seized without any form of letter.

This is not true I just got a letter from a package us>us, it was a certified letter 100% legit.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: ProfADaemon on February 26, 2013, 06:07 am
Don't let them take advantage of you if first order doesn't show up request reship with tracking or proof that it was shipped or reship with a proof. Unregistered packages tend to get "lost" - postmans stealing them. I used to order for a long tijme and not drugs about 1/5 - 1/4 unregistered packages went missing.

What country are you in? In the USA packages don't really ever go missing. Employee theft is discovered quickly and prosecuted harshly at USPS. Any time something goes 'missing' it's usually someone trying to scam the other party by lying about having sent or received it. If something goes 'missing' that you ordered from overseas, chances are Customs seized it and is actively investigating you over time.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: masterblaster on February 26, 2013, 06:59 am
Tracking doesnt raise red flags, shitty packaging and sketchy names and addresses do. Vendors too cheap to add tracking are paying for it in scammer refunds.

Want to fix the problem? Dont do business with vendors who wont track.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: zerik on February 26, 2013, 08:19 am
You don't have to show ID to get tracking. How would a vendor prove they mailed a package and it was delivered to the address provided by the buyer.

But yea if a seller doesn't offer tracking and you want it then just use another seller.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: example76 on February 26, 2013, 04:38 pm
Tracking doesnt raise red flags, shitty packaging and sketchy names and addresses do. Vendors too cheap to add tracking are paying for it in scammer refunds.

Want to fix the problem? Dont do business with vendors who wont track.

just a point: would you like to go in to a busy builiding with cameras and shit if you were posting $10.000 worth of drugs to people? you dont know if you can trust postal workers, im not a vendor or anything but if i was i sure wouldnt want to be doing that.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: WatLanBoon on February 27, 2013, 04:12 pm
Remember to consider not all transactions are domestic.

International mail is scrutinised.more.

Some buyers WONT accept tracking.

Its not a clear cut situation
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: smogmonster13 on February 27, 2013, 05:05 pm
Don't let them take advantage of you if first order doesn't show up request reship with tracking or proof that it was shipped or reship with a proof. Unregistered packages tend to get "lost" - postmans stealing them. I used to order for a long tijme and not drugs about 1/5 - 1/4 unregistered packages went missing.

What country are you in? In the USA packages don't really ever go missing. Employee theft is discovered quickly and prosecuted harshly at USPS. Any time something goes 'missing' it's usually someone trying to scam the other party by lying about having sent or received it. If something goes 'missing' that you ordered from overseas, chances are Customs seized it and is actively investigating you over time.

Your last sentence is disturbing. I am in this boat right now. A small quantity package from a highly ranked vendor outside my country has gone missing. Do you think I need to take specific action?
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: The Advocate on February 27, 2013, 10:42 pm
I'm with the OP.

This selective scamming thing has been around since SR first came about. Its about time it ended.


Fuck anyone who won't provide tracking.

I'm with you.  I'm requiring it for every package.  Escrow or no escrow.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: MySecretAccount on February 28, 2013, 04:28 am
Ok, so pretext is that I'm no longer a buyer on the road...I do like checking the forums and doing some harm reduction and occasional devil's advocate or "theoretical challenge" questions like this. I am going to get flamed for this, but selective scamming exists largely due to the SR "owners" (who they are is unimportant...if they were trying to PLUR it up here, their chance to prove that left a year ago).  There are 3 simple elements to selective scamming, and 2/3 are tolerated by SR and could easily be fixed. The third is what I think is just obvious warning signs and/or lies that people are OK with believing because hey - magical drug mail isn't the same as USPS mail, or (mail carrier of your normal mail system).

If I come across as an asshole, sorry, but I can be these days...solutions stare this site in the face and nobody does anything. Here are my 3 reasons, and if I feel up to it, maybe later I'll post about why almost all vendors leave rogue when they finally close shop.

1. The feedback system is terrible, could be fixed, but is still the same horrible method as always. I'll elaborate:

Since vendors are allowed to make their own rules, it's pretty common for them to only allow a 5 for a completed transaction. A competed transaction can be (and often is) sub-par, OK, or above what you expected but not 5/5 amazing. This is bullshit, as if I could have left 2s, 3s, and 4s, for vendors when I was using the site, I would have done so for all but a maybe 10 of the 40 or so I used. Examples of how vendors should be rated:

1/5 - horrible, fake product, scam, etc - this is self-explanatory...complete failure on vendor side.
2/5 - below average, which likely would mean any of a few things. Shipping being advertised as 3-5 days US to US, but taking 2-3 weeks for example. Bad product, bad stealth, short orders, or any other element that makes the transaction not OK. I'd include bad or incorrect communication in here too. If you paid for priority shipping, should have received say 1 gram of product Y, and instead get 1st class or massively delayed shipping, and/or .80g....that's below average.
3/5 - OK, Average, Middle of the Road (no pun intended). If the product is fine, the shipping was about what you received, and the communication was decent, that's an average transaction. The site is SUPPOSED to have things running smoothly and quickly. I would include stealth here too - either too much (more common than people think), or nothing beyond basic product hiding.
4/5 - Above Average - this should be for a vendor who exceeds the expected transaction in one or two ways - perhaps it comes well-hidden a few days early, or the product is better than expected or slightly more than you ordered. Good communication seems like another place to excel.
5/5 - Far above expectations - while this is the only rating people use, this should be only for vendors whose transaction is better than what is their basic responsibility in every way. A 5/5/ should require immediate shipping, high-quality stealth , PGP use, and product that is top grade and exactly as advertised.

Right now all we have are people who put 5s and 1s, at least I'd guess 98%+ of the time. I understand the argument that "well it's a site where we're selling illegal gods," but - you paid $150 or $500 to do exactly that, and you made a profile that essentially is a business mission statement. If a vendor in the 90+ range was actually indicative of an excellent vendor, while a vendor in the 60, 70% range could be still very good....feedback would count. Instead, you have vendors that just blacklist anyone who doesn't give 5/5, and buyers who will still issue the highest rating possible even after say a re-ship from something that likely never came, 20 days after the expected arrival date. Simply getting your order does not warrant a 5/5.

 
2. No standardized shipping options in the listing creation tool, or weight assigned to a vendor's success rate, average delivery time in comparison to the selected shipping method (with consideration of the buyer's finalization rank). The USPS only has so many options....if SR had the 4, 5 types of shipping all vendors use (at least in the US) as the options allowed, a rank could be given to the seller's consistency per their shipping type. Example - most vendors use Priority Flat Rate in the US...that's a 3-5 day maximum delivery time from when it's legitimately in transit. If a vendor constantly has PFR boxes being finalized 10 business days after marking "in transit," it's safe to assume they don't/aren't mailing when they claim to.

3. Require vendors who use FE (which I understand but typically indicates the seller can't afford their supply and demand chain without immediate cash) to have a percentage of transactions done in Escrow for buyers of certain stat levels. If you've got 50 transactions, 0 refunds, and 1 auto-finalize, being forced to FE by any vendor is ridiculous. While FE is probably an unavoidable and necessary evil to protect vendors, having FE only vendors that have no accountability to even the highly regarded buyers is something the site shouldn't allow.

I'm sure I could go in to so much more detail, but those 3 things alone (or the lack of updating them) make selective scamming easy as hell, and probably the most profitable thing to do on SR. If you're in it just for the money, which makes the most sense?

A. Open a legit shop and make 20-50% margins if lucky, eventually hitting critical mass where your demand is above your supply and/or you can't keep the pace up. Average Vendor Lifespan here is 3 months (and dwindling) - reqad Arxiv.org if you want source info.

B. Buy a decent amount of something with high profit potential - MDMA and LSD are obvious choices. Make sure that initial feedback and listings are slow, take 3x as many orders as you can fill, and then work the forums. People will be arguing for you, and others will likely subside for a bit and when you then either make good on some "delayed" orders. List whatever you can sell and cash out + 50%

Model B is so incredibly easy due to the above reasons that it sickens me...the only reliable way to vet out vendors is to look at their total vendor timeline, # of orders, and % of positive feedback out of those orders. If it's something that they claim to be selling a ton of, the feedback should match that. The best vendor I know of on the site has clear rules, has new feedback to the exact tune of what matches his profiles' sales caims, and he only uses escrow + DCNs.

Just think about it - if a vendor has any reason they claim keeps them from following the basic rules (escrow, tracking, etc) - just steer clear. You might get lucky, but - that's what selective scamming is.

       
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: jailbirdslanger on February 28, 2013, 12:11 pm
I haven't been on the road too long, but I have noticed a pretty alarming trend of "lost packages" or "must have got lost", without customs letters or anything remotely as proof for goods being sent. 

My question;
Why doesn't SR require vendors to use a tracking number?

Packages just flat don't get lost or taken, except for 1-1,000,000 type shit.  Atleast, not the rate people post about it happening here (WITHOUT customs letters, etc). 

Customer buys, money goes in to escrow
Vendor packages, gets number, puts it in to SR
SR checks if its been used before, and if its valid tracking number (they all have known formats--plus api's to check them against)

Rest of the process is normal.  They key difference here is that it prevents the seller from getting scammed since the tracking says its there, which SR can rule in favor of the seller pretty quick.  On the other side, it prevents the buyer from getting scammed /selectively scammed, because it requires the vendors to show proof of shipment.

Anyway, just wondering why tracking has not been a requirement, which number checking.

Hey especially with USPS, it never proves in the tracking the actual address it got sent to anyway, maybe express does. It only shows city, state and zip on the Delivered part of tracking anyway, so how can tracking be an argument anyway for sellers to say they sent it. I'm not saying I would want it this way , just saynn
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: godness420 on February 28, 2013, 12:28 pm
In my country, a tracked package needs a signature, to be sended and to be received
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: TheBusiness on February 28, 2013, 12:34 pm
In any system that is truly anonymous, there will be people who exploit the system. The only way SR works is because of trust and it's a dead set wonder there isn't more scamming than there is. This is a really great community and I've seen vendors here behave 1000% better than any street dealer I've known. Has any street dealer you know offered refunds or a free re-up? It's unbelievable.

On top of that, remember that vendors are being scammed too by low life buyers pretending they didn't receive anything. Vendors work hard for their ratings, only to be threatened by these people. So it works both ways. 
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: flaxceed on February 28, 2013, 01:10 pm
In any system that is truly anonymous, there will be people who exploit the system. The only way SR works is because of trust and it's a dead set wonder there isn't more scamming than there is. This is a really great community and I've seen vendors here behave 1000% better than any street dealer I've known. Has any street dealer you know offered refunds or a free re-up? It's unbelievable.

On top of that, remember that vendors are being scammed too by low life buyers pretending they didn't receive anything. Vendors work hard for their ratings, only to be threatened by these people. So it works both ways.

Words of wisdom there, my friends.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: XXXotica on February 28, 2013, 01:45 pm
In any system that is truly anonymous, there will be people who exploit the system. The only way SR works is because of trust and it's a dead set wonder there isn't more scamming than there is. This is a really great community and I've seen vendors here behave 1000% better than any street dealer I've known. Has any street dealer you know offered refunds or a free re-up? It's unbelievable.

On top of that, remember that vendors are being scammed too by low life buyers pretending they didn't receive anything. Vendors work hard for their ratings, only to be threatened by these people. So it works both ways.


+1 definitely. I see it from both sides being a new vendor as well as someone who has bought from SR. Many people wouldn't believe how many shady/ scam/ kid/ troll messages and orders a vendor gets. There are EXTREMELY more scam buyers than scam vendors. There all pieces of trash either way but remember, majority of buyers on SR are not on the forums and are not upstanding individuals like many of the forum members are. Tracking is definitely a must though because as one of the other members stated you will pay for it from the scamming you'll get. That, and your score will be crushed considering the score system isnt that great to begin with.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: smogmonster13 on March 03, 2013, 11:23 pm
I've had perfect stats with domestic orders. I just placed my first international order, and lo and behold...it didn't show up.

I requested a re-ship and it was ignored. Instead, I was offered a 50% refund, or release payment and get the order added to a subsequent order. This seemed like a good compromise.

Thoughts? Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: come_flywithme on March 03, 2013, 11:45 pm
Since he shipped to you from abroad has he proof of posting:D
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: anonymart on March 04, 2013, 02:28 am
Packages DO get lost and tracking proves this. I have DCNs  occasionally that never get updated with information at all and this means that package got LOST bc yes belief it nor not USPS does make mistakes like everyone since is run by humans too or it means that the package got CONFISCATED or STOLEN by an employee. This is not weird, our taxes pay for people to look for packages that have drugs in them......I hope you are not so naive to not know that there is a multimillion dollar war on drugs going on.



Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: ProfADaemon on March 04, 2013, 03:04 am
Packages DO get lost and tracking proves this. I have DCNs  occasionally that never get updated with information at all and this means that package got LOST bc yes belief it nor not USPS does make mistakes like everyone since is run by humans too or it means that the package got CONFISCATED or STOLEN by an employee. This is not weird, our taxes pay for people to look for packages that have drugs in them......I hope you are not so naive to not know that there is a multimillion dollar war on drugs going on.

You've been had, sucker. Those packages weren't sent. There are many techniques for getting a delivery confirmation number to scan without sending a real package to the real recipient. It's not proof of anything.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: anonymart on March 04, 2013, 03:17 am
I haven't been on the road too long, but I have noticed a pretty alarming trend of "lost packages" or "must have got lost", without customs letters or anything remotely as proof for goods being sent. 

My question;
Why doesn't SR require vendors to use a tracking number?

Packages just flat don't get lost or taken, except for 1-1,000,000 type shit.  Atleast, not the rate people post about it happening here (WITHOUT customs letters, etc). 

Customer buys, money goes in to escrow
Vendor packages, gets number, puts it in to SR
SR checks if its been used before, and if its valid tracking number (they all have known formats--plus api's to check them against)

Rest of the process is normal.  They key difference here is that it prevents the seller from getting scammed since the tracking says its there, which SR can rule in favor of the seller pretty quick.  On the other side, it prevents the buyer from getting scammed /selectively scammed, because it requires the vendors to show proof of shipment.

Anyway, just wondering why tracking has not been a requirement, which number checking.

Packages DO get lost and tracking proves this. I have DCNs  occasionally that never get updated with information at all and this means that package got LOST bc yes belief it nor not USPS does make mistakes like everyone since is run by humans too or it means that the package got CONFISCATED or STOLEN by an employee. This is not weird, our taxes pay for people to look for packages that have drugs in them......I hope you are not so naive to not know that there is a multimillion dollar war on drugs going on.

The idea of selective scamming sounds pretty paranoid to me and quite frankly all that selective scamming will do is lead to the vendor losing all his/her money and not growing in prosperity, is a very bad business model. As vendor you will make a lot more money not scamming anyone than you would scamming or "selective scamming."

Last custom letters only apply to international shipping. Overall almost all my packages arrive fine and the times there is an issue is usually bc of fake name or incomplete address but yes occasionally is bc it got stolen or confiscated or lost and when that happens I normally reship and package always makes it but I lose money.
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: XXXotica on March 04, 2013, 01:31 pm
SR isnt perfect on either side of the fence and never will be. Is the Government or the World, in general, perfect? No, so it baffles me when people believe an underground drug market will be 100% perfect. Theres loopholes everywhere in life, that doesn't exclude SR. Instead of trying to make something you have no control of perfect, why dont we just use our better judgement and protect ourselves using wise decision as mush as possible. There will always be low-life scammers, there's no way around this people. BE WISE
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: flaxceed on March 04, 2013, 04:52 pm
SR isnt perfect on either side of the fence and never will be. Is the Government or the World, in general, perfect? No, so it baffles me when people believe an underground drug market will be 100% perfect. Theres loopholes everywhere in life, that doesn't exclude SR. Instead of trying to make something you have no control of perfect, why dont we just use our better judgement and protect ourselves using wise decision as mush as possible. There will always be low-life scammers, there's no way around this people. BE WISE

+1
Title: Re: Fixing scamming / selective scamming
Post by: laplace on March 07, 2013, 05:40 pm
Because tracking is more expensive, and might also raise a red flag with customs.
AFAIK customs has no access to tracking. Tracking is run by the agency doing the shipping (e.g. USPS, FedEx, UPS, DHL, ...).