Silk Road forums

Discussion => Newbie discussion => Topic started by: Davey Jones on January 22, 2013, 08:17 pm

Title: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: Davey Jones on January 22, 2013, 08:17 pm
What do you all think it would take for LE to make a case against someone for shipping or recieving shit in the mail?  I figure if we nail it down and just avoid their methods we're good.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: surmer on March 29, 2013, 03:26 pm
Fictitious name at fictitious address. I haven't been busted yet.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: Trivial on March 29, 2013, 03:52 pm
Only one case I have heard of anyone getting busted from SR was that guy in Australia. He didn't use PGP and cops were checking his mail for a few weeks prior to busting him. Overall he was a really sloppy dealer and very insecure with his dealings.

Guess the best thing to take from this is be secure and use PGP.  Anytime using anything electronic assume you are being recorded and it will be used in court. Shit is pretty easy after that.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: xweed on March 29, 2013, 04:11 pm
Yes, good advice. /\ /\

 :P :P :P :P :P :P  Spammin for justice!
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: CRWHITLOCK on April 03, 2013, 07:29 am
Making a case against someone receiving is much different than making a case against someone sending. Receiving they would need a lot of prove that you actually ordered the package. You would need to sign for it or they would need to come into your home and find the package. They need a warrant to come into your home. If they ask for permission it's not going to sound like asking, it's going to sound like telling. Their going to say things like "You need to let us in", or "We want to come in and talk to you" etc. If they have a warrant to enter your home, they won't do anything other than throw the warrant in your face, push you aside or cuff you, and barge right in. NEVER let them come in with bully tactics though. If you answer the door and they don't show you a warrant within 10 seconds, odds are they don't have one. Stand your ground and say I want to see your warrant. If they don't have one, tell them very directly that they do not have permission to enter your home without a warrant. Shipping is a whole other matter.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: nameviolated on April 03, 2013, 07:34 am
Only one case I have heard of anyone getting busted from SR was that guy in Australia. He didn't use PGP and cops were checking his mail for a few weeks prior to busting him. Overall he was a really sloppy dealer and very insecure with his dealings.

Guess the best thing to take from this is be secure and use PGP.  Anytime using anything electronic assume you are being recorded and it will be used in court. Shit is pretty easy after that.

From what I read the cops were onto him when he received a bulk package in the mail from the Netherlands and they let it go through and started checking all his mail.  This went on for a few months before they busted him.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: dothedamnthing on April 03, 2013, 07:38 am
What it comes down to is the burden of proof. That is on them. They have to prove that you ordered those drugs. As long as you're smart enough to not give them the evidence to be able to do that (which isn't hard), then you should have no issues. Don't sign for anything, keep a clean house and computer, and deny deny deny.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: Davey Jones on April 04, 2013, 09:05 pm
Well, doing the homework on how le operates is what I'm doing.  Plus, consulting with an actual attorney on the ins and outs.  The way things are these days le may or may not go by the law.  I don't trust em, thats for sure. The bastards
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: sidiousxl on April 04, 2013, 09:19 pm
I've been curious about this topic as well.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: CannabisCrew on April 05, 2013, 03:19 am
What about LE who order products from vendors hoping they can pull prints from the insides of a package containing illicit drugs? Surely if there are usable prints inside the plastic/mylar/foil bags they will immediately forward that info to the local DEA office within that jurisdiction, no?

Maybe I'm just paranoid from smoking too much but it seems to make sense. Catalog the large dealers, order some of their products and hope they made the mistake of leaving identifiable prints within the packaging. This would guarantee an investigation if the target was a well established vendor.

-CC
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: RaoulDuke42 on April 05, 2013, 03:23 am
Getting caught through fingerprints requires having a record, doesn't sound particularly reliable.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: cantharidin on April 05, 2013, 04:31 am
Only one case I have heard of anyone getting busted from SR was that guy in Australia. He didn't use PGP and cops were checking his mail for a few weeks prior to busting him. Overall he was a really sloppy dealer and very insecure with his dealings.

Guess the best thing to take from this is be secure and use PGP.  Anytime using anything electronic assume you are being recorded and it will be used in court. Shit is pretty easy after that.

From what I read the cops were onto him when he received a bulk package in the mail from the Netherlands and they let it go through and started checking all his mail.  This went on for a few months before they busted him.

Exactly- I've heard people use this bust as an example of SR usage getting someone busted, but it's not that in any way. This guy got busted by an old-school route - receiving lots of packages from drug countries. After he was busted, I'm sure LE wrung out the SR aspect from him, but they did not get to him by following SR or bitcoin tracks. Of course it's in LE's interest to make it sound like they busted SR, just to scare the rest of us.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: Litescape on April 05, 2013, 04:48 am
Getting caught through fingerprints requires having a record, doesn't sound particularly reliable.

This is true. Have you ever had your fingerprints taken? I know I haven't (as I've never been arrested.) So, unless you've been arrested before, then you don't need to worry about fingerprints. That being said, I don't really believe that the DEA or whatever 3 letter organization involved is going to search every inch of a seized package for fingerprints, as the person who sent it (you) is not the only person who would have left fingerprints on the thing. Think of all the postal workers that had to handle your postage.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: RaoulDuke42 on April 05, 2013, 04:51 am
LE likes to catch the big fish, so finding fingerprints on the interior of packages might work for them, but if the vendor is using varying packaging/returns it would be beyond a headache to try to figure out how to link everything up.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: CannabisCrew on April 05, 2013, 03:20 pm
LE likes to catch the big fish, so finding fingerprints on the interior of packages might work for them, but if the vendor is using varying packaging/returns it would be beyond a headache to try to figure out how to link everything up.

Well, if you've been arrested before your fingerprints are on file. They would know your name and getting an address wouldn't be difficult after that. I don't believe LE would start busting down doors with a search warrant but at the very least you'd be under full blown investigation. They may at that point get a warrant to intercept your SMS and phone calls as they build a case against the vendor.

Am I just paranoid or is this a very REAL possibility? Seem plausible.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: surmer on April 06, 2013, 02:45 am
I don't think people realize how sophisticated Silk Road is in the eyes of prosecutors and investigators. We have entered into a realm of organized crime that is beyond deniability. We are, to some, Enemies of the State. These are cyber crimes, financial crimes, and for a not too far-fetched case, national security crimes--utilizing USPS and other government services for crime. Once the first terrorist or true Enemy of the State sends a biological weapon via Silk Road, then we have all committed ourselves to the consequences of such a monumental and intensive investigation.

I'm talking Guantanamo Bay level responses. Cuba does have a warm climate. However, the U.S. 30 year lease is almost up.

That's right. Once North Korea or some Christian bastard gets their hand on some sarin gas or anthrax powder, or invents the biological weapon that makes the Walking Dead a reality, then we might as well start praying, because nothing else will save us from the supercomputers hidden in the Colorado Mountains where DARPA once lived. Fingerprints are the least of our worries. If it becomes a national threat, then Homeland and the NSA will have every right under the Patriot Act to shut it all down. Servers or not, there is enough information trafficked through exit nodes, that a few presidential handshakes, and every developed nation will share their exit node database--or sell it at a price... or simply steal it--couldn't stop.

If you are the "occasional user", then you will obviously be a minnow in a sea of sharks. You may be fine... You might not be. How many innocent Arabs were scooped up under the label of Terrorist and shipped to Guantanamo? Oh, you haven't been keeping up with Human Rights Watch and all the WikiLeaks publications? Too bad, because it's a fucking scary truth.

Get your heads in the game, mother fuckers.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: Aystar on April 06, 2013, 02:51 am
The aus was an example to the downside of street dealin...but whats the process the UK le go through does anywun know?
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: CRWHITLOCK on April 06, 2013, 08:07 am
The term "make a case" is very general. LE could charge anyone with anything at anytime. Whether or not they make the charges stick and actually convict a person on something depends a lot on how the accused fights the case. People with the resources to hire a very good attorney, keep their mouth shut, can often beat cases that people without resources couldn't beat. I would say one of the biggest factors is how the accused handles themselves. A huge percentage of cases are made off of the person talking themselves into trouble. Never talk to the police. It can't help you, it can only hurt you. You stand a much better chance at beating the case if you don't say anything.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: surmer on April 06, 2013, 09:03 am
1. Wait  :( if we are posting on a public forum, then we are not keeping our mouths shut.

Security analysts, whether CIA or Homeland Security or FBI or IRS or <endless string of authority>, are required by both their job description and their ideology to read these posts. Prosecuting attorneys probably spend some of their time trolling for rare thoughts to gain better profiles or each and every one of us. Do you see the level of PsyWar in which we're now competing? Open your eyes to what's really going on... but don't stop opening them. Just as Tor has many layers of routing encryption, life has infinitely more complex layers.

2. Security Analysts and Analysis

A lot of what we say and do is input for intelligent computer programs. The output depends on the human aspect of programming. It is much easier to search for explosives--and the list of nitrogen compounds or chemical terms essential for securing and manufacturing--and drugs and destabilization (threats to national security). Before the computer program can perform an intelligent search, a human has to read these messages. They have to understand how we think and perform in forums.

If you compare this forum with that of a woodworking forum or gardening forum, you will see that the dynamics do not vary much. There is always a social group that will develop a kind of leadership. The more knowledgeable members stand out, earning respect for their wisdom, and demonstrating leadership. What is different about this forum, is it contains members of organized crime--although through Rothbardism  and not through blood rites or cultural traditions. The crime organization is Anonymous: anonymous criminals that are evading taxes and conducting illegal businesses. For certain authorities, we are enemies of the state. When you realize the level of complexity you are dealing with when you operate on the Silk Road, then you will realize what is at stake.

There is much more than profits or personal freedom at stake. It is liberty for one and justice for all. I am speaking not only to Americans, but to every red blooded human alive and well--able to think and do for those less fortunate than ourselves.

3. Human Learning

I have stirred up a lot shit and come off as a bottom feeder to some intelligent members here, community members, long-timers. The point I have been trying to make is about how we learn. We learn from mistakes. Mistakes are what teach us the most about a situation. "Don't talk to the Cops" tells us not to divulge information beyond who we are (personal identification) so that there will not be any incriminating evidence against our individual identity. If you cannot be linked back to this website, then there is certainly more freedom in what we say and do here.

So, one thing I might suggest is to begin thinking more like a prosecutor, more like an investigator. What would it take to stop Silk Road? What would it take to put every bad mother fucking vendor in prison? In a cage? Dank and dark, so spoiled with disease that no one will ever survive....

4. Enemies of the State

If we are all portrayed as enemies of the state, somehow different from a law abiding human demographic, then it will be easier for Silk Road to be taken down in the inevitable event of capture... Remember, however, that even if the servers are captured, or even a single vendor, that through the pirate lifestyle of the Silk Road--deleting messages, using GPG for EVERY COMMUNICATION that might reveal personal identity, and generally staying on top of the game (THIS Human-Computer-Human GAME)--there are limits to authoritarian power. We have invested time into securing our personal identity and personal liberty, but there are deeper mechanisms at work here. When you realize that, then you will see how revolutionary the Silk Road and BTC is becoming.

Enemies of the State, like bin Laden... That's a scary classification. To clever investigators and politicians, that is an accurate and legal title to hand out to anyone on the Silk Road. The title is also very accurate in light of our technological advancements in criminal techniques--and it will remain criminal until Americans (or any culture) get educated about how crime works... because it is either too profitable for LE to change the current model of ignorance and enforcement or it is too expensive (personally or organizationally) to get over the learning curve. Open Source never sounded so dangerous, but that's what it is. It has created a stumbling block for national security.

America now faces a possible war with North Korea. One thing America is good at when it comes to war is propaganda. Imagine the possibility of the Obama Administration, and/or the next administration(s), begin to cash in on the black market that is the Silk Road. I've mentioned in another post about the price of cocaine and its relation to security with regard to the War on Drugs. It is too profitable for the outright and immediate legalization of drugs for politicians and LE commissioners to adopt and amend. Crime warlord of Mexico and Colombia exist because America keeps the price so high... a 5000% increase in value due to trafficking risk as compared to production and actual fuel costs.... sometimes more.

Do you see how the true enemies of the state are revealed when we observe more and more information? This is the information that prosecutors and investigators are not paid to think about. Their only mission and task is to catch bad guys, not think about Right and Wrong. They are foot soldiers in a War on Drugs, fodder for the machine that is Corruption.

If you want to sidestep the label of Enemy of the State, then you need to invest your time and money in education and personal security. That is the first step in changing America for the best. The second critical step to surviving in a hostile market is to avoid being physically hostile. ALWAYS use nonviolent means to acquire your personal wealth.
Title: Re: What would it take for LE to make a case?
Post by: Davey Jones on April 07, 2013, 08:07 pm
If le found a print on the inside of a parcel, that could be construed as probable cause to look into it furthur.  If they have your prints on record that is.  Being careful is just a given to attain longevity in the game.  I never talk turkey over the phone or in person with anyone.  I never say "A quarter ounce of this blow is 350$" or "Is this good coke?"  No way man.  I use different names for different things and the people I know are aware of what I'm really saying.  All it takes is one time making a mistake with the wrong person.  One red flag I look for is when a person people know gets busted and then they're out on bail but coming around with some new person nobody ever heard of or knows, then people start getting busted.  Thats why I don't deal with just anyone, even if they have the money.