Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: moonlies on May 27, 2013, 03:17 am
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I also posted this in the newbie forum: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=163174.0
BTC and SR Financial Advice from a former major national bank employee:
I typed up the most relevant information, but feel free to ask many, many questions. I did NOT work at BofA, so this advice may not completely apply to those who use BST, but is generally applicable across all large national banks.
Here's the story:
I used to be a bank teller. I was hired by a large, national bank that is nationwide and must follow all governmental regulations typical of a large financial institution. I acquired some knowledge during my employment that may be of use to the people of Silk Road regarding Bitcoins, and the way the government tracks money as well as specially designated "drug traffickers" and "terrorists" using these large bank systems.
The United States government is very interested in tracking the financial behavior of "narcotics traffickers" and "terrorists", and it does so with the help of large national banks. The US government does this with a database of people that are designated "narcotics traffickers" or "terrorists". I still do not know what you have to do to get on this list (or why you can be on the list and not in prison…?), but the list exists and I have encountered these individuals on only a few, but very rememberable occasions.
Yes, there is a list of people who are considered "drug traffickers" or "terrorists" that is given to all branches of all large national banks by the federal government. I am not sure from which department of the federal government, but this list carries names that the United States government to be considered either "narcotics traffickers" or "terrorists". (an example of this would be the Boston bombers, both of these individuals were on this list under "terrorist", though I am not sure how heavy their "watch" was). These are the only two qualifications to be on this list. If your name is on this list, the agency involved is notified every time you do a transaction at one of these large national banks, and there are simply some transactions you are not allowed to do. The degree of this depends on how heavy the government has placed its "watch" on you. I am not sure of the different levels or the qualifications for these different levels of "being watched", only that they do exist.
First of all, it was communicated to me during my employment that these lists are not particularly difficult to be on, and once on the list it is very difficult, and near impossible to get off. Usually by the time you realize the government has you on this list you are in a prison cell.
Tellers are instructed through every step of every transaction by their computer screen. The computer will immediately notify the Teller if the individual in front of them who has properly identified themselves is on this list. From here, the computer system will either advise the teller to place a "watch" on this transaction so it can be reviewed later by the proper authorities, to do nothing, or the computer system will essentially lock the teller out of doing anything and force a manager to be involved.
I do know that it is absolutely possible for the bank to watch all transactions on an account and keep lists and lists and files and files of all deposits. That deposit slip that you fill out at the bank and give to the teller with all the "fake" info? That slip is scanned by an image capturing device and the paper itself is designed to pick up fingerprints. Next time you're talking to the teller, look directly above your head. There is at least one camera pointing at your face at any time in a bank, guaranteed. That deposit slip is also time stamped, so if ANYONE (the bank, the authorities, etc.) wants to see who really made that deposit they can, regardless of what "fake" info you used.
It is not illegal to buy Bitcoins, but that doesn't mean that the US government can't ask the banks to watch specific accounts of individuals and corporations who may be suspected of being involved with drug trafficking. I do not know for sure, as I was terminated before I could look up a BTC vendor account, but these accounts may be easily flagged by the bank for further review of all transactions. The bank is not on your side, they are on the government's side as the government is the entity that regulates the banks, which in essence controls how much money they can make. Banks like money, so banks willingly comply with all government agencies.
In this same vein, the US is huge and very, very full of itself and money. In other words, unless you are doing very very large BTC transactions very often, or very very frequent transactions that are close to the minimum amount the US government typically cares about ($10,000), then the government could care less about your BTC even if you ARE using them to buy drugs, simply because it isn't cost effective for that particular agency to go after you. Your local police department on the other hand has a budget just for that, and I'll bet money the two agencies can communicate if they wish.
Essentially I'm warning you all to stay cautious. This post is not in response to a large bust, a new banking regulating regarding digital currency, or any other new policy. This post is in response to me finally not being employed for long enough to feel safe posting this.
Here's what you CAN do at the bank to increase your anonymity: AKA (( TL;DR ))
- Leave most of the deposit slip blank and let the Teller fill it out. This limits how much you're touching the actual slip (and puts the Teller's fingerprints on it) and increases the amount of plausible deniability you will have in court that you knew the money was going to illegal activities
- Wear a hat and clothes into the bank that you don't normally wear, do ANYTHING that isn't TOO obvious and could actually be cause for further scrutiny that alters your appearance. Common sense here. No fake beards unless you can pull it off. Don't get yourself into more trouble doing this. Sometimes I feel like it's better to blend in with a large crowd then to have a great disguise that you can pick out of any crowd…
- NEVER deposit more than $2,500 in one time, and ONLY deposit using cash. This prevents any paperwork being filled out about your transaction.
- Use many different bank branches. Don't let the Tellers begin to recognize you or the type of transaction you do. They are trained to do so.
- NEVER provide any form of ID at all to anyone in the bank. Don't tell them your name, or anything about you. If you are an account holder of this bank, go to a branch you never use where they won't recognize you as a customer. If they ID you as one of their customers or account holders, your transaction will be saved under your name. You don't want that.
Now, I have a PLETHORA of other info, so ask away friends, lets let this thread be as helpful as the Janetreno post office intern thread. 
Questions already answered from newbie thread:
Do major banks have any interest in flagging transactions under 5,000 USD originating from BTC trading companies (like mtgox or campbx).
Yes. Banks and the US government are well aware of the anonymous benefits of BTC. They don't like it. They are also aware that one of the many (but very popular) uses for BTC is drug smuggling. SR isn't the only one.
They have INTEREST in these accounts and transactions, but they don't FLAG them all. The flagging comes as a result of IDing the individual, the amount of money involved in the transaction, or if the accounts involved are already flagged.
*originating from or going to
PS Would direct deposits from mtgox to my personal bank account be scrutinized?
Yes, especially if the amounts are large or the transactions are regular or both. What it would take to receive the first stage of scrutiny or "flagging", I'm not sure...probably a conviction or criminal record, or if you are already under investigation. Frequent abnormal account behavior can also be grounds to flag the account. The account holder may have NO IDEA that their account is flagged, and in most cases the bank won't tell you if the account is "flagged"
i wonder how DPR can do the laundry of all the money that comes to his hands..
i remember seeing in a news website that he was almost caught some time ago. Hope he is safer now.
As far as who is in control of the profits of SR....In my mind, DPR is an anonymous conglomerate of individuals all in communications with each other and managing the site in such a way that would make it very hard to narc on each other, while still making them relatively rich in short periods of time. Think rich compared to college students. Enough money to do whatever they want today, but not enough to save hundreds of thousands in offshore bank accounts. BTC simply cannot be cashed out like that.
Cashing out BTC is difficult, whatever DPR is doing he's doing it slow and correctly or I imagine they would have nabbed him (them) by now.
Sorry that was a little off topic, thank you to the original poster of this thread for the info, very informative. So are you suggesting htat one way to tell if your account is flagged is by the teller? For example if the transactions takes longer than usual or if you notice a pattern of manager or other teller looking at what the teller you went to is doing each time?
Exactly, however tellers are trained to do most of the unusual activity reporting after the customer has left so they would have no idea. Pay attention to the teller.
As someone who never actually goes into my bank in person, am I less likely to be flagged?
Not exactly what to take of this, but no, not really. It's the type of transaction and the accounts involved usually that flag things, not the individuals involved with the transactions.
Wow great post thank you!
You're welcome. I hope this thread and eventually its repost can be a great resource.
nah, i think he (they) is (are) very very rich.
rich i mean more than 20k a month.
This is probably as practically rich "they" can be given the risks I think.
NOW! Ask away friends! :)
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I don't believe every deposit slip is "scanned for fingerprints."
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I don't believe every deposit slip is "scanned for fingerprints."
I think he was just saying the paper was scanned in for the image and the paper was also designed to gather finger prints better.
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Where are you getting your info on cashing out btc? Are you just talking about in the context of a national branch? Because there are individuals who do six figure cashouts on a monthly basis (low-to-mid fives on a weekly basis) that one could easily find by just browsing the site. They've obviously done it successfully. Hell, I think NW Nugz falls under that category (or not too far away, at least). That statement is no good for your ethos, especially when providing an "advice" thread. You even mentioned you weren't even able to look up any solid data on btc transactions before you were terminated, so preferably stick to what you know. Don't go outside the realm of the banks, specifically the ones you know (and I don't even know what vendor would use banks that aren't offshore).
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Hell, I think NW Nugz falls under that category (or not too far away, at least).
No, I think I just appear "Larger than life" on the SR camera :-)
I don't see this guy giving "cash-out" advice, really. Just basic useful details we should appreciate hearing. I think his main advice is targeted at Btc buyers who want to make anonymous deposits into accounts they don't own.
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Hell, I think NW Nugz falls under that category (or not too far away, at least).
No, I think I just appear "Larger than life" on the SR camera :-)
I don't see this guy giving "cash-out" advice, really. Just basic useful details we should appreciate hearing. I think his main advice is targeted at Btc buyers who want to make anonymous deposits into accounts they don't own.
Exactly! This! Thanks for the clarification.
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More replies from the Newbie forum: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=163174.msg1167410#msg1167410
Say you want to deposit 20k a month. Keep it under 2500 a transaction? and split between 3 different banks?
Not a financial professional, but IMO if you are grossing 20K a month you need a front business. I don't believe any of the tactics you mentioned would distract them from the essential fact that you put 20K per month into the banking system. If that money is going into the bank, you had better pay some taxes on it and have a story about where it came from. Government officials tend to look more favorably on taxpayers -- funny how that works.
Very, very good advice!
Thanks for the info moonlies. So if i keep my btc purchases/exchanges under $1000, would you say there is a reduced chance of being flagged? Also, aren't there a lot of legit people buying btc only as an investment, especially recently with all the press it got?
That's a pretty good rule of thumb. I'd also stay below $2,500 deposited per month, depending on your method of deposit. (multiple anonymous method would allow you to deposit a higher dollar amount per month spread out among the different types of deposit).
And yes, many legit people are buying BTC. Many more illegitimate buyer and users than legitimate, tho. The key is to blend in with the legit ones.
and in your professional opinion what is then the safest way to structure deposits to avoid scrutiny. Say you want to deposit 20k a month. Keep it under 2500 a transaction? and split between 3 different banks?
As someone else also responded, if you're bringing in 20k a month, work for like 6 months, and cash out very slowly over a long period of time as anonymously as possible. Ask other vendors of similar size to you how they operate and go from there.
IMO...It is not feasable or realistic to think this kind of income can be had for very long without someone who you don't want to look at you looking at you. As I said above: if you're bringing in 20k a month, work for like 6 months, and cash out very slowly over a long period of time as anonymously as possible.
Why are you using your accounts for Bitcoin purposes? Do you have some service connected to your account like Dwolla? I feel moneygrams and similar things are much safer.
Always good advice. If you feel it is more typical to do Moneygram transactions, then do so. If you have a secure way to use bank deposits, then do that. Some people's situations will differ.
ok 2 more questions.
1. If they flag one of your accounts, is it safe to asume they have flagged all your accounts? For example. If I am on 3 accounts. 1 account soley in my name. 1 business account assigned to the business tax id # that I am on as a signer. And 1 joint account that I am on as secondary. If they flag one of them, are they all flaged?
2. Say I have an account at wells fargo that is flaged. Does that mean my account at Bank of america and chase bank are too? Do they have that level of interbank communication?
Thanks
1 AND 2 :) . This depends on the bank. Typically these "flags" are applied to any account in your name, regardless of the bank after the feds have decided to place them on you after being referred to your behavior by the bank. However, a Teller can only typically see your accounts with that specific bank, so keep your weird transactions either blended in or by themselves.
Yeah, it was probably pretty stupid for me to use my real info but I was afraid they would have some way of verifying my address and be more suspicious if things didn't line up. I should just go to some place when it's really busy so the employee doesn't have time to dick around and scrutinize.
Never a bad idea. Think of wherever it is you are conducting any transaction kind of how we on the Road view the USPS. It is important to blend in wherever possible.
I go to WalMart, and once I went twice in a week and the same girl there noticed me, and said "Paying another bill?"
I sweated a little but said, "Yeah, this one's actually for my friend" - I know Duh? I was nervous. :-[, she' was like "what a good friend you are"
Good thing it was my cats name, and an address of an apartment being renovated in my building. ;)
If there's any employee that couldn't care less about your transaction, it's a Walmart employee. ;D
Sounds like a totally normal transaction! If the teller were to report some unusual behavior, they would probably do it after you've left the bank.
Do you guys use your real info for moneygrams? I've done them twice and used my real info but laundered the bitcoins. The other option I've used is also through bitinstant. When they used to allow you to go to banks and pay and invoice that worked well. I didn't have to give the bank anything other than the code and cash, no id required plus I didn't need an account at the bank.
Read the OP!
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Put liquid band-aid on your fingertips to prevent fingerprint scanning ;)
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Quote from: SoAlone on May 27, 2013, 04:02 am
" I go to WalMart, and once I went twice in a week and the same girl there noticed me, and said "Paying another bill?"
I sweated a little but said, "Yeah, this one's actually for my friend" - I know Duh? I was nervous. :-[, she' was like "what a good friend you are""
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Probably no big deal at Walmart, but these days they are getting very picky about allowing "third-party" transactions. I would almost never say anything like "I am sending/receiving this $ for someone else".
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By all means the safest method is any anonymous type deposit. With BST and formerly Bitcopia you just have to walk in, dressed nice with maybe khakis and a polo and make a business deposit. The tellers are not stupid and look for small clues, "stop signs," that hint to them to slow down and look more closely. Everything I've read so far is a "stop sign," including:
Having the teller fill out your slip. Instead, practice using your other hand to write, or have someone else at home fill out the deposit ticket for you. If you are writing it yourself, hook your letters in different locations. Practice writing them from bottom to top. Practice bubbly handwriting. Try cursive... as long as they can read the numbers. Fill out the slip completely and correctly, the first time.
Wearing hats, sunglasses, or disguises.... this is stupid! The teller may think you're robbing them. Most banks have signs posted asking you to remove these. Just comply to avoid raising suspicion.... that is unless you're downtown in full garb maybe you can pull that off. Just make sure you blend in and play the part.
100% never use the bank in your hometown and try to not use the same teller. A very busy bank is your best option. Do not use the drive through.
Tellers do not want to have to fill out incident reports... do not oppose them. Keep conversations short and curt. Do not question the teller's questions or authority.
Always make anonymous deposits early in the day... the bank tallies up all cash deposits against an account and will be suspicious if the cumulative total is greater than $10,000. Also, do not put in $10,000, $9,999, $9,050, or anything close to $10,000. $10,000 is the secret amount at all U.S. banks where we need to KYC (identify) the initiator and fill out paperwork.
If you are making a wire transfer, have a purpose laid out. Never mention online, internet, gambling, bitcoins, purchases, or the like. When asked the purpose of a wire, your best answer would be "Making an investment."Bitcoins *could* be an investment and this is not a bad purpose. Never say that you are sending money to family or conducting business... such answers are either bullshit or too vague and will lead to an incident report. Making multiple wires in a short time frame is pretty bad too... normal customers do not do this.
Do not purchase more than $3000 in monetary instruments... this includes money orders, travelers checks, and gift cards.
FWIW I do not believe the check scanners use fingerprint scanning. This is probably the most commonly used image scanner at a bank CLEARNET LINK http://www.panini.com/sites/default/files/file/New%20Vision%20X%20Brochures/VisionX_Brochure_FINAL.pdf and also I do not believe the paper is designed to catch fingerprints any better than any other paper.
Also the list that is being referred to is an OFAC list. This is public information. CLEARNET LINK http://www.treasury.gov/ofac/downloads/t11sdn.pdf --------------LINK2 http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/SDN-List/Pages/default.aspx
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It would be interesting to use a FOIA request to obtain the "flagging"/STR information on an individual's account(s).
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All of the above is great. Bumping for knowledge to go with the USPS post!
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Subbing.
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Bumping for knowledge.