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Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: Dopamin on January 23, 2013, 12:29 am

Title: Neurotoxicity of Alcohol
Post by: Dopamin on January 23, 2013, 12:29 am
Hey,

I just did some googeling but found nothing on the subject. In a discussion about MDMA a person often reaches the topic of neurotoxicity. But what about alcohol? I heard no one ever say something like: Alcohol makes holes in your brains etc... Is it possible that recreational drug users are generally better informed about their DOJ then the usual drinker? Also, addiction to alcohol is a far less common topic then addiction to illegal drugs. These are just my impressions. 
Title: Re: Neurotoxicity of Alcohol
Post by: catfishinmysocks on January 23, 2013, 01:50 am
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/143698-How-is-alcohol-neurotoxic ?
Title: Re: Neurotoxicity of Alcohol
Post by: Ben on January 23, 2013, 02:06 am
While i do enjoy my alcohol, objectively its a pretty horrific drug.

If you disregard the legal status, alcohol is addictive, damaging, fattening, and often leads to risks to non-users as well (drunk driving, fihgts and such). If the criterium for legalizing a drug would be 'not more dangerous than alcohol', substances like cannabis, xtc, benzo's, lsd and a whole lot more would qualify for immediate legalization.

Tradition is an important factor there though. Things like sugar and salt would miserably fail food safety requirements as additives compared to what is required of newly developed substances as well, yet no one gives a damn about that.
Title: Re: Neurotoxicity of Alcohol
Post by: CiscoYankerStuck on January 23, 2013, 02:10 am
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/143698-How-is-alcohol-neurotoxic ?
Cool post. Thank you.
Title: Re: Neurotoxicity of Alcohol
Post by: nmnmnm on January 23, 2013, 04:33 am
While i do enjoy my alcohol, objectively its a pretty horrific drug.

If you disregard the legal status, alcohol is addictive, damaging, fattening, and often leads to risks to non-users as well (drunk driving, fihgts and such). If the criterium for legalizing a drug would be 'not more dangerous than alcohol', substances like cannabis, xtc, benzo's, lsd and a whole lot more would qualify for immediate legalization.

Tradition is an important factor there though. Things like sugar and salt would miserably fail food safety requirements as additives compared to what is required of newly developed substances as well, yet no one gives a damn about that.

If these drugs were legal, there would be a lot more widespread problems caused than are caused by alcohol because people fail to show self control, myself included.
Alcohol isn't that good a drug, which means most people don't use it 24/7. It has nasty side effects that deter the user such as dehydration and sicknessand it tastes disgusting.

Cannabis probably isn't any more harmful than alcohol. I can't smoke it anymore but that is only because of my past (over) use of other drugs.
MDMA is a better, more euphoric drug than alcohol and when used in the long term would cause serious depression.
Benzos give less side effects than alcohol which would lead to their daily use and would be much more easy to get addicted to than alcohol.
LSD, if sold legally, would be used regularly by some and this could result in mental problems for some individuals.

I did think at one point they should legalize drugs. I would like to believe I would show self control and do what was right for me but I don't think that would be the case.
Title: Re: Neurotoxicity of Alcohol
Post by: Dopamin on January 23, 2013, 02:09 pm
catfishinmysocks, thanks a lot. gotta dig myself through the thread in a calm moment.
Title: Re: Neurotoxicity of Alcohol
Post by: sdesu on January 23, 2013, 06:24 pm
I will try to look for a link to the study, but the results showed that excessive consumption of alcohol decreased grey matter in the brain even after a relatively short period of time (</= 18 months).

sdesu
Title: Re: Neurotoxicity of Alcohol
Post by: Wazup7 on January 23, 2013, 07:32 pm
...
I did think at one point they should legalize drugs. I would like to believe I would show self control and do what was right for me but I don't think that would be the case.

I have to agree with nmnmnm.  I love me some drugs--use them all the time.  I think that there are a huge number of illegal substances that pose a very small danger to people, as compared to alcohol and tobacco. 

But I don't necessarily agree that just because, for example, cannabis is safer and more benign than alcohol, that it should be made legal based on this fact.

Because if one thing is clear, it's that people do *NOT* act in their own best interest when it comes to the foods and substances they ingest.  I mean obesity is such a huge problem that some governments have tried to legally limit the sales of unhealthy foods and beverages, such as NYC limiting the size of soda containers.  If people could be trusted to use their own best judgment with the things they ingest, then I would be 100% in favor of legalizing everything based on the criterion "If it's safer than alcohol, it should be legal." 

But I know for a fact that if cannabis was blanket made 100% legal today, there would be people who would abuse it.  There would be people who begin using it for the first time, and become habitual smokers.  There would be people who have jobs in Safety fields, who would now be high every day.  If LSD were made legal, there would be people who will trip way too often, and this would lead to mental health problems.  There would be those who use their legal drugs at inappropriate times, or in an inappropriate manner.  These problems are all present when these substances are illegal--they will only become more prevalent if there were no legal restrictions.  If something is able to be abused, then people will abuse it, and legalizing these substances will only open the door for more widespread abuse.

For the most part, I think the current legal status of most substances is acceptable.  I would like to see more restrictions on alcohol and tobacco, rather than less restrictions on other substances.  But for cannabis and LSD, I have no qualms with the fact that they are Schedule I.  I still buy them and I still use them, but I consider myself more responsible than others in regards to using these drugs.

As to the OP, I am of the belief that alcohol consumed in moderation poses a very minimal danger to the user, physically and mentally.  I have known individuals that drink 2-3 drinks a night, every night, for 80 years, and they are still alive and strong (as strong as anyone pushing 100 years old can be).  I think there have been studies that concluded that light to moderate alcohol consumption has certain health benefits, and other studies that show that 3 beers a day is healthier all around than 3 sodas a day. 

Personally, for me a good night's sleep is enough to bring me completely back to baseline after having a few drinks.  If I have more than a few, then a good night's sleep in addition to a day of healthy activities and foods is enough to bring me back to baseline.  That fact enforces my idea that alcohol is not dangerously neurotoxic.  With MDMA on the other hand, I usually feel very down the day after a roll, and this general depressed feeling usually lasts for about a week after the roll.  The fact that the after-effects last so much longer than those of alcohol makes me think that the nuerotoxicity of MDMA is worse than alcohol--the chemical changes it produces are broader and require more recovery time than alcohol. 

Just my thoughts--I'm not an expert and I haven't actually read up on alcohol nuerotoxicity, I only have a basic knowledge of MDMA toxicity (free radicals and oxidation from the dopamine).  But even with that knowledge, I will still continue to responsibly use these drugs as I have been in the past.  Knowledge is power.
Title: Re: Neurotoxicity of Alcohol
Post by: catfishinmysocks on January 23, 2013, 11:25 pm
Good post Wazup, +1.

I am uncertain of my stance on legalization/control of substances but I share a lot of those sentiments and have similar experiences with alcohol vs. MDMA. It does a whole lot more to your brain than MDMA does.
Title: Re: Neurotoxicity of Alcohol
Post by: Ben on January 24, 2013, 02:12 am
People knowingly and willingly ingesting substances that will harm them is a problem indeed. This is true of alcohol, cigarettes, and even high calorie foodstuffs as you pointed out.

I would argue that there is litte difference between legal and illegal substances where this is concerned though.

With alcohol, many will keep it to 2 or 3 drinks before driving home. A few people will drink a lot more, and then still attempt to drive home, posing a risk to both themselves and society at large.

In case of alcohol there is a very strict definition to what is acceptable in traffic in most european countries. Commonly this is an alcohol level in the blood of no more than 0.05%. With illicit substances there are no such established limits however, and there is no reliable testing equipment available either. The lack of clear definitions complicates things sometimes. How much pot can you smoke before its unsafe to drive a car? I'm sure a milligram would be just fine and an ounce would  not be, but a real limit needs to be established.

This poses the question of tolerance having is effects too though. Someone used to drinking alcohol could be able to control a car at much higher levels of alcohol compared to a novice drinker. Making judgements in such cases would need a new form of testing: for actual function instead of for some predefined  blood level.