Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: Bastian on April 01, 2013, 07:56 pm
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Hello all,
I wonder if someone here self medicates his/her mental health with Opiates?
Again and again I find the information that Opiates were used before the antipsychotics came out.
The "funny" part is - antipsychotics have much more side effects - especially in the long run - and Opiates showed to help even in some cases which didn't response well to
antipsychotics.
What would be the best Opiat for that?
Morphin?
Oxycodone (?? strong enough?)
Opium?
Heroin?
How much could/should one take daily to be in the comfort zone?
I don't mean "high times" - I just mean beeing OK and less mental health issues.
If someone can tell me something about it - I'd be happy!
Thank you
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I didn't know opiates were used to treat schizophrenia, I knew they were used as sedatives for anxiety and agitation but were they actually treating schizophrenia with them or just using them to sedate the schizophrenics? I wouldn't recommend using morphine, heroin, and oxy for everyday use, I'd go with methadone or buprenorphine but I don't know if it'd work.. Morphine was the main opiate used as a sedative in the old days though so maybe it's the one that works best. I would take some morphine ER orally if I were to use it everyday and maybe start with 30mg a day or less orally.
Maybe even lesser opiates like dihydrocodeine would work, I'd try with those first to see if it works. If a less strong opiate works, I don't see why you should take morphine or heroin for self-medication.
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I have read that Suboxone (buperenorphine) has been used in medication resistant depression. I used to take anti-depressants but now that I take a maintenance dose of suboxone I no longer need an anti-depressant. I take about 1mg of suboxone once a day and have not had issues with depression and anxiety like I have in the past.
If your serious about trying an opiate I would go with suboxone as the half-life is long and if you take a low dose, 1mg, it will be affordable.
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Yes, opiates have been used to treat mental illness in the past. They used insulin shock, submerged people in ice water also but I wouldn't recommend it.
Anyway, I have seen opiates work on people with depression and bipolar. It does have obvious problems with addiction which in turn would then make people more depressed.
If the addiction was not so bad I would agree with you 100%. But it can get way out of hand very fast if not very very careful which is hard to do when self medicating.
Do not underestimate this drug. The withdrawl if something happens and you cannot get it are from hell. However, like anything in life you have to consider the pros and cons. How bad is your illness? If a person is so unable to function or a risk to themselves or others than its possible the gains are worth the risks.
I would stay away from methadone and suboxone as the half life is very long they are much more addictive and withdrawl is very long. With other opiates the worst is over in about 4 days. Meds like subs can last weeks. Plus methadone is very hard on your body but other opiates aren't as long as there is no tylonal.
All I can tell you is that this has very real risks and can turn your life into a living hell. But it can treat mental illness effectively and could help someone function when everything else fails. Just please be informed of the risks and stay safe.
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More side effects doesn't mean lesser side effects. Think of the addictive potential and how opiates will worsen your condition dude.
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Antipsychotics have way worse side effects than opiates, but maybe there's something less addictive than opiates that would still be better than antipsychotics. I understand he doesn't want to take antipsychotics because those are really awful! If he's not abusing, an addiction to opiates wouldn't be so strong so it could be a better way to medicate.
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self medicating is not the best idea especially with opiates.
what if something goes wrong and you cant get your meds in time? Your left with symptoms of schizophrenia and opiate withdrawal!
I think that's not worth the risk..
Tell your doctor that the anti-psychotics don't work, they make you feel like shit and you want something else!
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morphine was used effectively.
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Hello all,
thank you for your replies!
Yes antipsychotics... I feel like shit and the mental problems not gone... I take one of the most potent antipsychotics...
Of course I can talk to my doctor "it doesn't help" - but my experience is - he says "take more"... so I take 3times more than in the beginning - and still have the feeling :
1. Its not enough
2. It causes additional mental health problems - but how argue as a patient with an "expert" (doc)?
It makes me very very depressed, almost suicidal at times - some peaks of my schizophrenia are gone - but trough the strange conciousness from the antipsychotics I have MORE problems than before - and this for lowering the peaks only A BIT!
I'm already at the point that it feels like hell...
That's why I search for alternatives, and to be honest - a bit warmth (opiates) is something a human with those problems should be legal to use - anything else - and the antipsychotic thing is like worsening everything and put the patient in "mental-prison".
Some of the side effects can be, that you remain an mental zombie even after "withdrawal" from antipsychotics.
The problem with opiats is, that I could invest max 250$ /month and I'm totally aware of addiction and the problems I would have to face...
Sadly in my country, doctors only give opiats/morphine to cancer patients or in some cases to very very hard pain patients. (I'm a pain patient, too)
So its almost impossible to get it from the doc...
They prescribe antipsychotics "off label" without an end... easy
But they would never prescribe morphine "off label"....
F*****ing system!
I tried poppy tea once - and it was too much - never expected this kind of strong... but the warmth/lightning feeling in bed was great...
But to me it was a bit too trippy - perhaps a first-use-experience?
I think this mix of substances within poppy tea is not so good - because you can't always have poppy tea - finding a source...
So in the end - I don't know if morphine or something else would help me - and I would never start that journey without beeing sure having enough - never a day without.
Morphium seems to be too expensive to me - but I only know the prices from silk road (which - for weed n hash - seem to be about 20-100% higher than on the street).
- about 100$ for 100mg?!?!? thats 100$ all three days...
Oxy would be OK - its affordable
Heroin seems to be most easy available - but also too expensive
Subutex affordable?! hmmm if 1mg is enough- yes... but the 5x8mg ive seen also 100$
sorry but have to say one thing again:
F****ing system
Thank you for your answers!
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There's morphine sold at $190 for 10 100mg pills (I've found that morphine is the cheapest opiate on SR). Oxy is extremely overpriced here... $1 for 1mg is way too much. But the country west of where you are has very cheap codeine over the counter (codeine is kinda shitty IMO but it's worth a try).
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yeah fucking system.. why wouldn't they prescribe morphine/diamorphine or something similar to person who is in mental agony but force down some antipsychotics down his throat while they make situation even worse
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Hello all,
thank you for your replies!
Yes antipsychotics... I feel like shit and the mental problems not gone... I take one of the most potent antipsychotics...
Of course I can talk to my doctor "it doesn't help" - but my experience is - he says "take more"... so I take 3times more than in the beginning - and still have the feeling :
1. Its not enough
2. It causes additional mental health problems - but how argue as a patient with an "expert" (doc)?
It makes me very very depressed, almost suicidal at times - some peaks of my schizophrenia are gone - but trough the strange conciousness from the antipsychotics I have MORE problems than before - and this for lowering the peaks only A BIT!
I'm already at the point that it feels like hell...
That's why I search for alternatives, and to be honest - a bit warmth (opiates) is something a human with those problems should be legal to use - anything else - and the antipsychotic thing is like worsening everything and put the patient in "mental-prison".
Some of the side effects can be, that you remain an mental zombie even after "withdrawal" from antipsychotics.
The problem with opiats is, that I could invest max 250$ /month and I'm totally aware of addiction and the problems I would have to face...
Sadly in my country, doctors only give opiats/morphine to cancer patients or in some cases to very very hard pain patients. (I'm a pain patient, too)
So its almost impossible to get it from the doc...
They prescribe antipsychotics "off label" without an end... easy
But they would never prescribe morphine "off label"....
F*****ing system!
I tried poppy tea once - and it was too much - never expected this kind of strong... but the warmth/lightning feeling in bed was great...
But to me it was a bit too trippy - perhaps a first-use-experience?
I think this mix of substances within poppy tea is not so good - because you can't always have poppy tea - finding a source...
So in the end - I don't know if morphine or something else would help me - and I would never start that journey without beeing sure having enough - never a day without.
Morphium seems to be too expensive to me - but I only know the prices from silk road (which - for weed n hash - seem to be about 20-100% higher than on the street).
- about 100$ for 100mg?!?!? thats 100$ all three days...
Oxy would be OK - its affordable
Heroin seems to be most easy available - but also too expensive
Subutex affordable?! hmmm if 1mg is enough- yes... but the 5x8mg ive seen also 100$
sorry but have to say one thing again:
F****ing system
Thank you for your answers!
Unfortunately yes doctors just increase the dose if you complain that the meds don't work. Or add more pills. So I hear your frustration.
Have you ever taken opiates before besides the tea once.
I am just worried about the potential for addiction for you.
Sounds like you have a tight budget to work with and opiates are very expensive.
How much do you think you will need to start with.
I wouldn't suggest buying them on the road as they are a lot more expensive. You could get perk 5 $3-$5 each and 10s around 7 each on the street but the tylonal in those is not good for you. You could get Oxy 30's (which don't have tylonal) for 15- 20 each (depends on where you live) on the street. Cut in 1/4 which is 7.5 mg Here on the road the same is 35-40 mg each which is absurd. Plus shipping. The cheapest is prob h both here and the street. I have never done it but thought about it a few times for pain.
I don't differentiate between physical pain and emotional pain for opiates. If your suffering is alleviated by it than it should not be denied to a person. I agree with you there.
I had heard about opiates alleviating depression but when I became injured and took percecet for pain it completely wiped out my depression and have not needed anti-depressant meds for 8 years now. So it can work and since I would take it for pain anyway the fact that it heals my depression is an extra bonus.
I know you have to think out of the box to heal yourself. Have you tried katrom at all to see if that helps. You can get that on the clear net.
I am kind of torn here because if things are that miserable for you I don't want to talk you out of anything if it will help you. I know what it is like to be desperate for something that will work. On the other side I have seen opiates destroy lives. Just always be safe and take as little as possible.
Like I said before what happens if you suddenly can't get it. You would be very screwed. Don't underestimate what the withdrawl is like.
I hope things work out for you and please stay safe.
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Hey Zerik, thank you for your reply!
I have Kratom ;-) but I didn't try it yet - because I'm careful with "up-energy-boosts". They say Kratom is energy-stimulant in the beginning and sedative after that.
I don't drink coffee, black tea .... nothing which boosts my energy - I always had panick/paranoid Attacks from that.
There are few reports that some Thais went schizophrenic because of Kratom - but it seems more like a propaganda - because those 4-5 cases also had other drugs and addiction.
If kratom would work for me - it would be the best solution - because of the legal availability where I live - and it is cheaper.
But like I said - I'm afraid of the stimulating energy in the beginning - I need more sedating/relaxing things
I never took opiats before (except the poppy tea) but long ago - smoking weed and hash in the past - I had a kind of hash for a while which was not normal.
Everyone who tried it said afterwards - that there must be something within ... perhaps opiats...
And to be honest - when I think about it - I feel craving...
I try to describe the effect:
1. Everyone who smoked it (all regular stoners) felt asleep by no later than the second "head" - mostly after the first... no chance to stay active
2. After one was inured to it, it took yourself to a place within yourself of total silence, of peace and calm... like I said still craving a bit
Perhaps it was "impure" with opiats - or just sleeping pills or something like that
All the best
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what about benzos?
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what about benzos?
Well - it might sound strange - but Benzos no longer work for me. 4/5 everything fine, but it started - no matter if lorazepam or Valium - that the effect was trippy and more stimulating - especially with antipsychotics.
Closing the eyes and than it begins - a movie starts like taking some psychedelics.
And with time, benzos can cause the problems which they should fight: Adverse effects like more fear, panick attacks and so on...
That's nothing I want to end up with- especially if I would be addicted to it and can't stop immediately because I could even die... no thanks
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I don't know that about katrom and if the stimulate effect of it would exacerbate your symptoms best to avoid that.
Since you have zero tolerance you could probably pick up some hydro (viciden) on the cheap. Has a lot of tylonal in it but but to just try for a couple of days shouldn't hurt if you don't have any medical problems.
If it is something that will work you would notice a difference in a couple of days at most. It isn't like psych meds that have to build to a therapeutic dose over weeks or months.
Just stay with the lowest dose possible to minimize any withdrawl and save on your wallet.
Seems like you have done your research on it and I hope you understand the dangers.
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i was thinking about this.. and i think you should consult another doctor before jumping into opiates. Maybe someone more open minded will treat you with better medication.
I think 250 a month is not enough for long term. Tolerance always builds up. The costs always go up.
Go find another doctor and tell him everything. Tell him your old doctor is not helping you and your condition is getting worse. And the stuff he is prescribing makes you suicidal.
Opiates (if they work for you) are only a short term solution if you cant get them prescribed.
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I don't know that about katrom and if the stimulate effect of it would exacerbate your symptoms best to avoid that.
kratom is not very stimulating. lower doses are more energizing while higher doses are more sedating. its stimulant effects are comparable to coffee but smoother and longer lasting. i don't see why kratom would exacerbate the symptoms of schizophrenia. it's a healthier alternative to the traditional opiates.
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I don't know that about katrom and if the stimulate effect of it would exacerbate your symptoms best to avoid that.
kratom is not very stimulating. lower doses are more energizing while higher doses are more sedating. its stimulant effects are comparable to coffee but smoother and longer lasting. i don't see why kratom would exacerbate the symptoms of schizophrenia. it's a healthier alternative to the traditional opiates.
Well... it is hard to understand the psychological reactions from some "Schizophrenics" - even for them selfs. So I can imagine Kratom could worsen the condition, because (in my case) even benzos have a "trippy" effect sometimes...
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Niacin AKA B3 is higher dosages.. PLEASE google it!! They have been doing some really great work and moving people from group homes and institutions to being able to live on their own by stopping all other meds and just taking Niacin .. The people in the study mostly ended up between 2000mg and 5000mg per day.. Start out low and work your way up to what "feels right" You will know when you hit it andmake sure you get the "flushable" kind..
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Wow pretty interesting Blue Girl.. Vitamin B3 treating schizophrenia is pretty surprising. You should look into that Bastian, it probably has far fewer side effects than opiates.
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Codeine and H have worked best for me to overcome or adjust psychosis.
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what about benzos?
Well - it might sound strange - but Benzos no longer work for me. 4/5 everything fine, but it started - no matter if lorazepam or Valium - that the effect was trippy and more stimulating - especially with antipsychotics.
Closing the eyes and than it begins - a movie starts like taking some psychedelics.
And with time, benzos can cause the problems which they should fight: Adverse effects like more fear, panick attacks and so on...
That's nothing I want to end up with- especially if I would be addicted to it and can't stop immediately because I could even die... no thanks
Not to mention that benzo addiction is significantly worse than opiate addiction, i think opiates could work in your situation but start with the weakest you can either codiene or hydrocodone. You have expressed concerns about stimulation so i think i should let you know many people find oxycodone and oxymorphone to be somewhat stimulating especially at lower dosages. You should stay away from methadone and suboxone as they are much harder on your body and more addictive than normal opiates. Have you considered low dose use of ketamine? IMO ketamine is the most effective antidepressant and its very safe in moderation. The doseage you would use would be 10-30mg every few days, that would be very cheap and you shouldn't experience any effects other than anti depression and maybe a more positive mood overall. GHB would also be another drug to look into and its without a doubt one of the best and safest drugs out there.
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anyone who uses opiates is a fucking moron. enjoy being a heroin addicted junkie for life. Skinny as fuck. Needle scars all over your body. Dead by 40 of a drug OD.
Thats the path you morons are on.
Start with pharmecaeutal opiates, you'll eventually find that you can't get high on them any more because of the tolerance, so you'll turn to the most potent one of them all--heroin. And then your life is screwed. :laughs:
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anyone who uses opiates is a fucking moron. enjoy being a heroin addicted junkie for life. Skinny as fuck. Needle scars all over your body. Dead by 40 of a drug OD.
Thats the path you morons are on.
Start with pharmecaeutal opiates, you'll eventually find that you can't get high on them any more because of the tolerance, so you'll turn to the most potent one of them all--heroin. And then your life is screwed. :laughs:
Way to be a judgmental asshole on a anon website. Not everyone who using a opiate will turn to recreational heroin, i have been dependent on opiates for a while now and have never once tried heroin and i simply dont abuse opiates. a decade of opiate use is safer and easier on your body than one weekend of binge drinking. Just keep you opinions to yourself if they are not helpful.
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To self-medicate with Ketamine you have to take it once every 7 days, not everyday, keep that in mind. And a K-hole dose each time, or a similarly kinda large dose. I know it works wonders for depression but psychedelics for schizophrenia? Doesn't seem like a very good idea to me... But it may work.
As for opiates, I'd recommend dihydrocodeine (DHC), not hydrocodone (too euphoric and pretty stimulating) and codeine is really shitty and full of side-effects. DHC is kind of like codeine except it has way less side effects and no ceiling effect. It's easier on your body too. It's pretty sedating too so it seems like the best option to me...
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To self-medicate with Ketamine you have to take it once every 7 days, not everyday, keep that in mind. And a K-hole dose each time, or a similarly kinda large dose.
Actually, in the recent studies that are finding a strong anti-depressive effect of ketamine lasting 1-2 weeks, they are using low dosages of the drug. 30 times less than the recreational dose.
So no, k-holing isn't necessary.
Personally, I take only enough to notice the effects of the drug. And I don't need to re-dose for about 10 days.
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To self-medicate with Ketamine you have to take it once every 7 days, not everyday, keep that in mind. And a K-hole dose each time, or a similarly kinda large dose.
Actually, in the recent studies that are finding a strong anti-depressive effect of ketamine lasting 1-2 weeks, they are using low dosages of the drug. 30 times less than the recreational dose.
So no, k-holing isn't necessary.
Personally, I take only enough to notice the effects of the drug. And I don't need to re-dose for about 10 days.
I thought the doses used in the study from the article I read about were pretty large, it wasn't so recent though. And yeah it did say every 7 to 10 days, but I just said that to let him know that it's not everyday.. You can figure out yourself what dosing schedule works best for you. And every 7 days is most convenient because you could do it like every weekend, I imagine some people can't/won't do it during the week.
Thanks for the input though, I really thought you had to take a good dose.
Have you had good results by the way?
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Have you had good results by the way?
Have you had good results by the way?
ketamine is working better than anything else i've ever tried. it works for 7 days or more. :) i hope that it will soon be regularly prescribed for people suffering from severe depression. I know someone who is very depressed who could use ketamine, but she has it stuck in her head that all illicit drugs are "bad", and will only use prescription medication, which only makes her deteriorate furhter. if ketamine were prescribed, people like her could be saved :( :( :(
But this thread is about schizophrenia. I have no idea if ketamine would be good for schizophrenics are not. It certainly works for bipolar depression.
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Have you had good results by the way?
Have you had good results by the way?
ketamine is working better than anything else i've ever tried. it works for 7 days or more. :) i hope that it will soon be regularly prescribed for people suffering from severe depression. I know someone who is very depressed who could use ketamine, but she has it stuck in her head that all illicit drugs are "bad", and will only use prescription medication, which only makes her deteriorate furhter. if ketamine were prescribed, people like her could be saved :( :( :(
But this thread is about schizophrenia. I have no idea if ketamine would be good for schizophrenics are not. It certainly works for bipolar depression.
Thats a good point i dont know enough about schizophrenia to be able to say if it would work or not but i think its worth looking into. As for dosage im pretty sure it was threshold doses like under 30mg once a week or sometimes even longer. Another nice thing about ketamine is you dont have to wait for it to build up in your system like most anti depressants so it can be used as a short term crutch if things got really bad. I wonder if mxe has any of the same property's as ketamine?
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Try railing some zanex. Thats what i do.
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Thats a good point i dont know enough about schizophrenia to be able to say if it would work or not but i think its worth looking into. As for dosage im pretty sure it was threshold doses like under 30mg once a week or sometimes even longer. Another nice thing about ketamine is you dont have to wait for it to build up in your system like most anti depressants so it can be used as a short term crutch if things got really bad. I wonder if mxe has any of the same property's as ketamine?
Any NMDA antagonist could potentially alleviate depression, ketamine's antidepressant effect is because NMDA antagonism reverses neurological damage caused by stress and promotes neuronal growth, from what I've read. That's why it works for so long even though ketamine's half life is so short. Some dissociatives are more effective than others at that though, DXM wouldn't work as well I think, it's more complicated than that but it's what I remember from the article.
Some people reported positive results from MXE so I think it works too. It's too bad it isn't used more widely... SSRIs really suck at treating depression.
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Thats a good point i dont know enough about schizophrenia to be able to say if it would work or not but i think its worth looking into. As for dosage im pretty sure it was threshold doses like under 30mg once a week or sometimes even longer. Another nice thing about ketamine is you dont have to wait for it to build up in your system like most anti depressants so it can be used as a short term crutch if things got really bad. I wonder if mxe has any of the same property's as ketamine?
Any NMDA antagonist could potentially alleviate depression, ketamine's antidepressant effect is because NMDA antagonism reverses neurological damage caused by stress and promotes neuronal growth, from what I've read. That's why it works for so long even though ketamine's half life is so short. Some dissociatives are more effective than others at that though, DXM wouldn't work as well I think, it's more complicated than that but it's what I remember from the article.
Some people reported positive results from MXE so I think it works too. It's too bad it isn't used more widely... SSRIs really suck at treating depression.
do you know if memantine would work? that would be the best long term option if its effective.
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I didn't know much about memantine before but it's probably not as effective. I don't know if it'd be the best long-term option, its side effects aren't that great and you'd have to take it everyday, as opposed to ketamine. Memantine touches more receptors than ketamine which is probably why you can't take enough for it to work a long time, or you'd get too many side effects. It's probably unscheduled for that reason.
Alcohol also works as an NMDA antagonist for example but it doesn't share ketamine's antidepressant effects at all.
Memantine has been associated with a moderate decrease in clinical deterioration with only a small positive effect on cognition, mood, behavior, and the ability to perform daily activities in moderate to severe Alzheimer's disease. There does not appear to be any benefit in mild disease.
That's from wikipedia but there are enough references to back this up. The mood improvement is only small and that's only for severe cases of Alzheimer's. The fact that it's almost nonexistent in mild disease may point out that its antidepressant action wouldn't work on people not suffering from the disease... But it may work, just to a lesser extent than ketamine I think.