Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: BenJesuit on April 10, 2013, 02:15 pm
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Question: If vendor cancels order within 1st 4 days of your order that hasn't been shipped (still in processing), you can't leave feedback? I thought you could but couldn't find confirmation one way or the other. SR rules change every now and again. Even us old timers can't keep things straight.
Anyone recently have experience with this subject?
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as soon as the vendor accepts order the customer can leave feedback, even if it is cancelled after it was accepted,
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Who's the vendor out of interest? I think I've had an order cancelled on me but I'm not sure. All options have been greyed out.
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Ok. So then by accept you mean market in transit or confirm? But before that point (before vendor marks in transit or confirms order), if the vendor cancels, the buyer can't leave feedback?
I ask because I had an order cancelled on me that was in processing (first time) and I don't see where I can leave feedback. I'm guessing if this is the case, it's a good thing since scam buyers would use this as a weapon leaving little protection for the vendor.
@sharonneedles, can't say yet which vendor because the reason they cancelled on me is that they fear veteran buyers who leave feedback of less than 5/5 to use as blackmail since veteran buyer feedback carries more weight. But I'm in the process of working something out with the seller.
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Who's the vendor out of interest? I think I've had an order cancelled on me but I'm not sure. All options have been greyed out.
Hm, there shouldn't be any options for the first 4 days, unless it's after it was marked in transit? Can they do that? I thought the order just disappeared. I do get the cancel option before 4 days sometimes... can't explain it.
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Who's the vendor out of interest? I think I've had an order cancelled on me but I'm not sure. All options have been greyed out.
Hm, there shouldn't be any options for the first 4 days, unless it's after it was marked in transit? Can they do that? I thought the order just disappeared. I do get the cancel option before 4 days sometimes... can't explain it.
I'm referring to the vendor side of the equation. They can cancel an order literally at anytime. But it seems if they cancel your order in the first 4 days and it hasn't been marked as "in transit" but says "in processing" you cannot leave feedback. Just as it doesn't appear that after 4 days when the buyer's cancel link goes live and the buyer cancels, feedback can't be left.
BTW, your cancel like is clickable is on day 5, your order is still in processing.
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Bump to get more opinions. The answer to this question should be put in the wiki.
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Excellent question......I also have one to go with that. Why does a veteran buyer's feedback carry more weight?.....Can anyone explain that to me.....and are you talking if you have to go to resolution center?
Is there a SR rating system.....where your feedback is worth more....the more transactions you have?
I ask because I had an order cancelled on me that was in processing (first time) and I don't see where I can leave feedback. I'm gucan't say yet which vendor because the reason they cancelled on me is that they fear veteran buyers who leave feedback of less than 5/5 to use as blackmail since veteran buyer feedback carries more weight. But I'm in the process of working something out with the seller.
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It's explained somewhat cryptically on the wiki. http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/wiki/index.php?title=Feedback_Score
But we've had a veteran or two pull that nonsense. The most recent one we tried to reason with. Started off extremely strong and belligerent making a list of threats and demands. Claimed we sent him bad product even though the last 20+ transactions of the same product had a 5/5. Turns out at the end he wasn't just a veteran buyer but also a vendor. We gave him nothing nor gave into his demands.
These veteran buyers never take things to resolutions. They just leave a 1/5 then send a PM with a list of demands in order for them to change to a 5/5. Their goal is to either get a refund outside of SR resolutions or get free product. They are ruining it for other veteran buyers because many vendors don't want to be bothered with them due to the risk. New, relatively new, <90 rating or low transaction vendors need to avoid these characters. If you see >$10K spent and >50 transactions, cancel the order on sight and before you mark in transit. Don't bother taking the risk. The effect of their 1/5 can last for weeks if you don't give in. And because their 1/5 carries so much weight, they can order your lowest priced product (thinking they will get more later for free or a refund) and still have a big impact on your rating. Let veteran buyers deal with veteran sellers whose stats they can't materially affect.
Or if it's too late to cancel, you can opt to give in to these veteran buyers calculating the loss of sending out more product to them versus the loss in sales the impact of their 1/5 might have.
So that sort of answers the question. If a vendor cancels before marking in transit, the buyer can't leave feedback. If a vendor cancels after marking in transit, the buyer can leave feedback. The reason why a vendor can cancel before shipping and the buyer being locked out from leaving feedback is because the vendor can only see the buyer's stats after an order is placed. Imagine if SR allowed rejected buyers to give feedback for cancelled orders that haven't shipped? It would be like the fury of a woman scorned.
Vendors have a right to do business with whom they will. It used to just be, don't sell to LEO or Newbs. Not's it's avoid the SR vets too.
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It's explained somewhat cryptically on the wiki. http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/wiki/index.php?title=Feedback_Score
But we've had a veteran or two pull that nonsense. The most recent one we tried to reason with. Started off extremely strong and belligerent making a list of threats and demands. Claimed we sent him bad product even though the last 20+ transactions of the same product had a 5/5. Turns out at the end he wasn't just a veteran buyer but also a vendor. We gave him nothing nor gave into his demands.
These veteran buyers never take things to resolutions. They just leave a 1/5 then send a PM with a list of demands in order for them to change to a 5/5. Their goal is to either get a refund outside of SR resolutions or get free product. They are ruining it for other veteran buyers because many vendors don't want to be bothered with them due to the risk. New, relatively new, <90 rating or low transaction vendors need to avoid these characters. If you see >$10K spent and >50 transactions, cancel the order on sight and before you mark in transit. Don't bother taking the risk. The effect of their 1/5 can last for weeks if you don't give in. And because their 1/5 carries so much weight, they can order your lowest priced product (thinking they will get more later for free or a refund) and still have a big impact on your rating. Let veteran buyers deal with veteran sellers whose stats they can't materially affect.
Or if it's too late to cancel, you can opt to give in to these veteran buyers calculating the loss of sending out more product to them versus the loss in sales the impact of their 1/5 might have.
So that sort of answers the question. If a vendor cancels before marking in transit, the buyer can't leave feedback. If a vendor cancels after marking in transit, the buyer can leave feedback. The reason why a vendor can cancel before shipping and the buyer being locked out from leaving feedback is because the vendor can only see the buyer's stats after an order is placed. Imagine if SR allowed rejected buyers to give feedback for cancelled orders that haven't shipped? It would be like the fury of a woman scorned.
Vendors have a right to do business with whom they will. It used to just be, don't sell to LEO or Newbs. Not's it's avoid the SR vets too.
That's fucked up, do they send all this in SR messages? That's not against the rules or something? How do they calculate how "powerful" the buyer is?
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Thank you for your response.......I just had one of those guys do that to me.....wanted a 25% discount....said if he did not get it he was leaving a 1/5 and then go on the forums and tell a BS story.
My guy...ordered on a Thursday...got pissed his order did not ship till Monday....USPS tried to deliver it on Wednesday....he got it Thursday...he started selling my product....and refused to finalize....said he had 17 days do that....we are now at resolution right now.......the guy cussed me out in every message...tried bulling me....had his buddy message me about it.......it was brutal.....
I contacted vender support the very same day.....and have messaged them about every other day.....really i do not understand it....he got his exact order in 7 days......and I did something wrong. :-\
In my book.....SR should toss those buyers out on their ass.....they are terrible buyers.
Thanks for the information.
It's explained somewhat cryptically on the wiki. http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/wiki/index.php?title=Feedback_Score
But we've had a veteran or two pull that nonsense. The most recent one we tried to reason with. Started off extremely strong and belligerent making a list of threats and demands. Claimed we sent him bad product even though the last 20+ transactions of the same product had a 5/5. Turns out at the end he wasn't just a veteran buyer but also a vendor. We gave him nothing nor gave into his demands.
These veteran buyers never take things to resolutions. They just leave a 1/5 then send a PM with a list of demands in order for them to change to a 5/5. Their goal is to either get a refund outside of SR resolutions or get free product. They are ruining it for other veteran buyers because many vendors don't want to be bothered with them due to the risk. New, relatively new, <90 rating or low transaction vendors need to avoid these characters. If you see >$10K spent and >50 transactions, cancel the order on sight and before you mark in transit. Don't bother taking the risk. The effect of their 1/5 can last for weeks if you don't give in. And because their 1/5 carries so much weight, they can order your lowest priced product (thinking they will get more later for free or a refund) and still have a big impact on your rating. Let veteran buyers deal with veteran sellers whose stats they can't materially affect.
Or if it's too late to cancel, you can opt to give in to these veteran buyers calculating the loss of sending out more product to them versus the loss in sales the impact of their 1/5 might have.
So that sort of answers the question. If a vendor cancels before marking in transit, the buyer can't leave feedback. If a vendor cancels after marking in transit, the buyer can leave feedback. The reason why a vendor can cancel before shipping and the buyer being locked out from leaving feedback is because the vendor can only see the buyer's stats after an order is placed. Imagine if SR allowed rejected buyers to give feedback for cancelled orders that haven't shipped? It would be like the fury of a woman scorned.
Vendors have a right to do business with whom they will. It used to just be, don't sell to LEO or Newbs. Not's it's avoid the SR vets too.
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It's explained somewhat cryptically on the wiki. http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/wiki/index.php?title=Feedback_Score
But we've had a veteran or two pull that nonsense. The most recent one we tried to reason with. Started off extremely strong and belligerent making a list of threats and demands. Claimed we sent him bad product even though the last 20+ transactions of the same product had a 5/5. Turns out at the end he wasn't just a veteran buyer but also a vendor. We gave him nothing nor gave into his demands.
These veteran buyers never take things to resolutions. They just leave a 1/5 then send a PM with a list of demands in order for them to change to a 5/5. Their goal is to either get a refund outside of SR resolutions or get free product. They are ruining it for other veteran buyers because many vendors don't want to be bothered with them due to the risk. New, relatively new, <90 rating or low transaction vendors need to avoid these characters. If you see >$10K spent and >50 transactions, cancel the order on sight and before you mark in transit. Don't bother taking the risk. The effect of their 1/5 can last for weeks if you don't give in. And because their 1/5 carries so much weight, they can order your lowest priced product (thinking they will get more later for free or a refund) and still have a big impact on your rating. Let veteran buyers deal with veteran sellers whose stats they can't materially affect.
Or if it's too late to cancel, you can opt to give in to these veteran buyers calculating the loss of sending out more product to them versus the loss in sales the impact of their 1/5 might have.
So that sort of answers the question. If a vendor cancels before marking in transit, the buyer can't leave feedback. If a vendor cancels after marking in transit, the buyer can leave feedback. The reason why a vendor can cancel before shipping and the buyer being locked out from leaving feedback is because the vendor can only see the buyer's stats after an order is placed. Imagine if SR allowed rejected buyers to give feedback for cancelled orders that haven't shipped? It would be like the fury of a woman scorned.
Vendors have a right to do business with whom they will. It used to just be, don't sell to LEO or Newbs. Not's it's avoid the SR vets too.
What do you think about me, then?
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That's what I'm hearing from a lot of vendors. They're getting tired of dealing with these asshat SR veterans that use feedback blackmail.
@ Billiken; just let the vendor know upfront that you're a flexible, understanding and patient buyer. But the SR veterans in question are those like me who have been here for well over a year with >100 transactions and 5 figure spending stats. They are the ones vendors don't like dealing with. I may need to start a new SR buyer account in order to branch out from my go to guys. Just so I don't look threatening and avoid having to waste time proving I'm not one of those scum bag veterans.
Moral of the story - vendors are humans too and deserved to be treated with empathy and common human courtesy. Buyers have it easy.
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The reason you cannot leave feedback is because your Vendor did not ever accept your order.
The order was still in processing.
The vendor had not decided that you as a buyer were worth doing a transaction with. (Checking your stats) So at that point the vendor can deny your order and it would not be fair to allow Buyers to Flame a vendor because the buyer has 50% Refund rate on his record.
The only thing that would result from a Buyer being able to leave feedback on a canceled order would be negative feedback due somebody not getting what they want when they want it. A vendor is doing you a favor by canceling your order because perhaps there was a supply issue or worse. Now your BTC is free and you may go order from somebody else. I will say it is at least Respectful for the vendor to send a PM along with the cancellation.
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+ karma funbagz
And yeah, it would be nice for vendors to send a PM explaining why they cancelled. But if it was a rule they have that was on their profile and the buyer didn't read it, they probably won't waste their time.
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That's what I'm hearing from a lot of vendors. They're getting tired of dealing with these asshat SR veterans that use feedback blackmail.
@ Billiken; just let the vendor know upfront that you're a flexible, understanding and patient buyer. But the SR veterans in question are those like me who have been here for well over a year with >100 transactions and 5 figure spending stats. They are the ones vendors don't like dealing with. I may need to start a new SR buyer account in order to branch out from my go to guys. Just so I don't look threatening and avoid having to waste time proving I'm not one of those scum bag veterans.
Moral of the story - vendors are humans too and deserved to be treated with empathy and common human courtesy. Buyers have it easy.
It does kind of suck, i have never had an order cancelled. I would be really pissed if some vendor told me that. 73 transactions, only one MISSING when i first started, didint know whose order was due to my anxiety when i started buying on the road, ordered more than 6 packages at the same time, 2 of them were mdma from 2 reputable vendors and they both shipped from the same country, never knew whos mdma actually came, but still gave 5/5 to both and didnt even ask for anything. Only had one re ship from bluegiraffe and the second package made it through.
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Well......we certainly will see :)..........as I just confirmed and shipped to 2 buyers with over 70 purchases on SR.....really is should be super smooth....I shipped them their exact order in 3 days
come Monday or Tuesday.....will be the test.......the last buyer that had those statics....told me he had 17 days to finalize....and we are now in resolution, he is using the blackmail feedback for a 25% discount tactic. Every buyer with 10-50 transactions has been awesome so far....knock on wood.
Great topic.
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Who's the vendor out of interest? I think I've had an order cancelled on me but I'm not sure. All options have been greyed out.
Hm, there shouldn't be any options for the first 4 days, unless it's after it was marked in transit? Can they do that? I thought the order just disappeared. I do get the cancel option before 4 days sometimes... can't explain it.
I'm referring to the vendor side of the equation. They can cancel an order literally at anytime. But it seems if they cancel your order in the first 4 days and it hasn't been marked as "in transit" but says "in processing" you cannot leave feedback. Just as it doesn't appear that after 4 days when the buyer's cancel link goes live and the buyer cancels, feedback can't be left.
BTW, your cancel like is clickable is on day 5, your order is still in processing.
So, I had heard about the cancel popping up before 4 days before but that was it. Anyway I tried to cancel since it was clickable and vendor disappeared/BTC crashed. It didn't work, wouldn't let me cancel so it's just a cosmetic bug.
But could some vendor answer me, when these veteran buyers are are trying to strong arm you are they doing this through SR messages?
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@ medicalcannibas420
Yeah, that's one of the stunts they pull also. The refund %/blackmail tactic. Though that guy is pretty dumb because a refund in resolutions means he'll get a blemish on his stats. I guess he was trying to call your bluff and lost. Good for you to stick to your guns. I think normal buyers are getting wise to the problem with feedback. Plus those that look at individual feedback know that fluke 1/5 is just that, a fluke. Or a failed blackmail attempt or even a blackmail attempt in progress.
I was looking at a vendor's feedback the other day. Nothing but 5/5's and glowing praise. Then comes this one 1/5 out of nowhere warning people to stay away and other dire warnings like the vendor is a selective scammer. Obvious what was going on. Plus the dolt intimated that he was a long time SR buyer and his experience told him that something was "fishy."
It could also be the competition trying to sow the seeds of FUD.
Point is, SR needs to rework the feedback algorithm. New sellers and low volume sellers are particularly vulnerable to these long term SR buyer scams.
For instance, let's say a new vendor has 15 total feedback of 5/5 which would mean that he's at 100%. In comes the active SR vet and drops a 1/5 on them. They'll end up with a 80-90 rating because of this joker. How does that help buyers make a decision?
It should be a simple algorithm that doesn't take into account the buyer's purchasing stats.
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Who's the vendor out of interest? I think I've had an order cancelled on me but I'm not sure. All options have been greyed out.
Hm, there shouldn't be any options for the first 4 days, unless it's after it was marked in transit? Can they do that? I thought the order just disappeared. I do get the cancel option before 4 days sometimes... can't explain it.
I'm referring to the vendor side of the equation. They can cancel an order literally at anytime. But it seems if they cancel your order in the first 4 days and it hasn't been marked as "in transit" but says "in processing" you cannot leave feedback. Just as it doesn't appear that after 4 days when the buyer's cancel link goes live and the buyer cancels, feedback can't be left.
BTW, your cancel like is clickable is on day 5, your order is still in processing.
So, I had heard about the cancel popping up before 4 days before but that was it. Anyway I tried to cancel since it was clickable and vendor disappeared/BTC crashed. It didn't work, wouldn't let me cancel so it's just a cosmetic bug.
But could some vendor answer me, when these veteran buyers are are trying to strong arm you are they doing this through SR messages?
All the vendors I spoke with about it unanimously state that it happens more or less like this.
1. SR vet buys listing.
2. order arrives, they finalize, and they immediately leave a 1/5 or PM to threaten to leave a 1/5 before rating unless their "issue" is addresed.
The ones who leave a 1/5 right after finalizing usually wait for the vendor to contact them. The comments the leave along with their 1/5 compels the vendor to contact them first. This clues them in that they hold all the cards. The excuses about why they left a 1/5 are varied but boil down to not being "satisfied" with their purchase. Either they will present a solution or see first how the vendor will make it right.
The ones who leave a 5/5 but threaten in a PM to change it to 1/5, probably do it this way to see how far the vendor is willing to go and how desperate he/she/they are to maintain their high or perfect rating. Those introductory PM from the SR vet usually start of with some issue that's not that big of a deal or claim they got less than paid for. When the vendor calls them on their bullshit, that's when the demands get stiffer. The SR vet gets indignant about being called a liar. The whole "that's no way to treat a customer. I've been on SR for over a year..." At this point they sometimes threaten to post about their bad experience on the forum and tell their friends to avoid the vendor. Also that they will report to vendor to SR and since they are SR vets and not newbies, they believe it will carry more weight.
Or some times it's the "I am looking to buy bulk but how can I when this issues isn't made right..." These clever bastards give the illusion of a double benefit for the vendor to comply. Maintain rating and take big or small loss now for the sake of future sales. But what the vendor does know is that is BS.
My heart goes to good, hard working vendors on SR. They have to put with with all kinds of bullshit. The type of bullshit that would never fly out on the streets. Pull this sort of crap out on the streets and you'll end up get beat up, cut up or shot the fuck up.
And vendors have to contend with slow ass TOR, newbs needing constant affirmation, SR going down every week for hours at a time, having to cash out in a secret way that has to be mixed up every now and again, and having to worry about their own security and looking over their shoulder so they don't get caught and have to go to jail.
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Thank you for your response.......I just had one of those guys do that to me.....wanted a 25% discount....said if he did not get it he was leaving a 1/5 and then go on the forums and tell a BS story.
My guy...ordered on a Thursday...got pissed his order did not ship till Monday....USPS tried to deliver it on Wednesday....he got it Thursday...he started selling my product....and refused to finalize....said he had 17 days do that....we are now at resolution right now.......the guy cussed me out in every message...tried bulling me....had his buddy message me about it.......it was brutal.....
I contacted vender support the very same day.....and have messaged them about every other day.....really i do not understand it....he got his exact order in 7 days......and I did something wrong. :-\
In my book.....SR should toss those buyers out on their ass.....they are terrible buyers.
Thanks for the information.
It's explained somewhat cryptically on the wiki. http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/wiki/index.php?title=Feedback_Score
But we've had a veteran or two pull that nonsense. The most recent one we tried to reason with. Started off extremely strong and belligerent making a list of threats and demands. Claimed we sent him bad product even though the last 20+ transactions of the same product had a 5/5. Turns out at the end he wasn't just a veteran buyer but also a vendor. We gave him nothing nor gave into his demands.
These veteran buyers never take things to resolutions. They just leave a 1/5 then send a PM with a list of demands in order for them to change to a 5/5. Their goal is to either get a refund outside of SR resolutions or get free product. They are ruining it for other veteran buyers because many vendors don't want to be bothered with them due to the risk. New, relatively new, <90 rating or low transaction vendors need to avoid these characters. If you see >$10K spent and >50 transactions, cancel the order on sight and before you mark in transit. Don't bother taking the risk. The effect of their 1/5 can last for weeks if you don't give in. And because their 1/5 carries so much weight, they can order your lowest priced product (thinking they will get more later for free or a refund) and still have a big impact on your rating. Let veteran buyers deal with veteran sellers whose stats they can't materially affect.
Or if it's too late to cancel, you can opt to give in to these veteran buyers calculating the loss of sending out more product to them versus the loss in sales the impact of their 1/5 might have.
So that sort of answers the question. If a vendor cancels before marking in transit, the buyer can't leave feedback. If a vendor cancels after marking in transit, the buyer can leave feedback. The reason why a vendor can cancel before shipping and the buyer being locked out from leaving feedback is because the vendor can only see the buyer's stats after an order is placed. Imagine if SR allowed rejected buyers to give feedback for cancelled orders that haven't shipped? It would be like the fury of a woman scorned.
Vendors have a right to do business with whom they will. It used to just be, don't sell to LEO or Newbs. Not's it's avoid the SR vets too.
Will you be releasing that buyers name? I'm guessing you are waiting until it is either resolved or not. Also is there a section where buyers who run scams are listed, I think I came across something of the sort in the forums but I am not sure!
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Hello everyone,
at this point,I am NOT releasing any names.....would not be proper business......I am going through the resolution process....and see what the staff comes up with.
I have dealt with bullies all my life.....but at this point it's up to SR........just because your "TALK LOUD" and say the word FUCK more than 10 times in a private message
does not mean your right......:)..................hopefully SR will see that........
For me it's kinda the test case for my business on SR..