Silk Road forums

Discussion => Security => Topic started by: rapala24 on February 22, 2013, 06:59 pm

Title: Bitcoin Tumbling
Post by: rapala24 on February 22, 2013, 06:59 pm
So say I use my verified mt. gox account and send my coins to a blockchain.info wallet -> a couple instawallets -> a cold wallet -> SR address.  Then I spend all the BTC, change my SR BTC address, delete the blockchain wallet and cold wallet.  Could my transaction on SR be tracked back to my personal information on mt. gox by simply by searching the blockchain.info site?

What I'm getting at is what is the big deal about buying BTC with your bank account if you tumble the coins enough before they get to SR?

Thanks
Title: Re: Bitcoin Tumbling
Post by: acider on February 22, 2013, 07:25 pm
Instawallet blocked tor lately so I suppose you use regular browsing? You shouldnt. Do you tumble them on blobkchain.info with "send anonymous" option? If you do after that you re good to go. But you should use tor if you send them to an online wallet before SR, otherwise you are still logged for a direct SR deposit.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Tumbling
Post by: rapala24 on February 22, 2013, 08:08 pm
Thank you.

So here is my plan.  Using clearnet from internet cafe go to Ziggap.com and do a Chase Bank cash deposit to blockchain.info wallet using fake info on the ziggap form.  Then using Tor go to blockchain.info wallet and send anonymous to my offline wallet I have installed on tails.  Then send from my offline wallet to my SR wallet.

I will use disposable email addresses for the ziggap form, and blockchain wallet.  I will change my SR address and offline wallet address , and of course my SR password and PIN before each transaction.

Does this seem like a good plan to stay as anonomous as possible?

Does blockchain.info log/care if you access your account via Tor?

Title: Re: Bitcoin Tumbling
Post by: acider on February 22, 2013, 08:23 pm
I m not in US and not really familiar with those sites you mentioned, but whatever method you use is ok as long as you tumble them. I think it's an overkill to go to an internet cafe, since the coins you ll get after the tumbling are supposed to not be connected with you. In my opinion the important part you said was tails offline wallet for the last step, so it looks pretty solid to me.
I don't think blockchain flags/blocks tor.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Tumbling
Post by: biteme on February 22, 2013, 08:46 pm
I use Instawallet with TOR. It's not blocked.

Perhaps they have blocked a specific range of IP addresses because I find that sometimes the site does time out and I can't load it.

When this happens, I just click on "Use a New Identity" in my TOR app and after the new IP address is loaded, Instawallet usually works just fine.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Tumbling
Post by: rapala24 on February 23, 2013, 04:31 pm
I use Instawallet with TOR. It's not blocked.

Perhaps they have blocked a specific range of IP addresses because I find that sometimes the site does time out and I can't load it.

When this happens, I just click on "Use a New Identity" in my TOR app and after the new IP address is loaded, Instawallet usually works just fine.

Instawallet my not block Tor but they could flag it.  Say you access your instawallet through Tor and they flag it behind the scenes.  And then you access the same instawallet without Tor and since its been flagged they capture your IP.  That information may be useful to LE if they ever try and track you down as it seems that using Tor and bitcoins pretty much means your using the coins for SR in the LE's eyes.  I know mt gox flags for Tor users and are more than willing to give related account data to LE..

Ok this is my new process:
Ziggap cash deposit -> blockchain.info wallet (clearnet - no need for internet cafe)
Access blockchain.info wallet through Tor -> tumble with send anonomous option to Tails offline wallet
Tails offline wallet -> SR

This seems legit but let me know if anything looks goofy.  Also I heard that SR tumbles coins when you send to your SR address and also tumbles before transactions.  Is this true?

Thanks
Title: Re: Bitcoin Tumbling
Post by: handsoap on February 23, 2013, 05:38 pm
If SR tumbles them in, out and inbetween is all that still necessary? assuming you never use a wallet that is directly connected to you?
Also, with the ability to constantly change your SR address x 1000's of users if not more, are SR addresses really flaggable? and if so how often do you really use the same one? I change it every transaction and in between randomly.
unless an adversary cracks the SR random code I believe it's safe but I would love to hear other thoughts
Title: Re: Bitcoin Tumbling
Post by: biteme on February 23, 2013, 07:59 pm
I use Instawallet with TOR. It's not blocked.

Perhaps they have blocked a specific range of IP addresses because I find that sometimes the site does time out and I can't load it.

When this happens, I just click on "Use a New Identity" in my TOR app and after the new IP address is loaded, Instawallet usually works just fine.

Instawallet my not block Tor but they could flag it.  Say you access your instawallet through Tor and they flag it behind the scenes.  And then you access the same instawallet without Tor and since its been flagged they capture your IP.  That information may be useful to LE if they ever try and track you down as it seems that using Tor and bitcoins pretty much means your using the coins for SR in the LE's eyes.  I know mt gox flags for Tor users and are more than willing to give related account data to LE..

That is just kinda silly. There is no need to ever access Instawallet without TOR.

Also, Mt. Gox is a completely different story because you need to register to use it and it is their stated policy not to allow the use of TOR. It is not designed to be used anonymously. Instwallet is.

You've got some healthy paranoia going on there but you need some logic mixed in, too.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Tumbling
Post by: fatoldsun on February 25, 2013, 03:45 am
Just wondering... what's the value of transferring the coins through an offline wallet?

Usually those are only used for long-term storage of large amounts, not for anonymity. Remember that the transaction will be just as visible once it's been broadcast.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Tumbling
Post by: rapala24 on February 25, 2013, 05:57 am
Just wondering... what's the value of transferring the coins through an offline wallet?

Usually those are only used for long-term storage of large amounts, not for anonymity. Remember that the transaction will be just as visible once it's been broadcast.

True.  Im not sure why it would help in any way to make your coins more ananomous.  I think one advantage to keeping your coins offline is for safety because if a online wallet gets hacked or just disappears then your coins are gone for good. but I saw it mentioned somewhere as a goog thing to do. But if every move to a different wallet is registered in the blockchain then how does tumbling help at all?

When you tumble coins does it work like this?
Create temp wallet 1
transfer original coins to temp wallet 1
Create temp wallet 2
transfer coins from temp 1 to temp 2
delete temp 1
repeat 100's or 1000's of times

Again all the transfers would be in the block chain but it would make it very hard or impossible to track back to the begining?

I don't know much about this stuff so excuse me if I come across as a as an idipt.
Any good links about tumbling around?

Thanks
Title: Re: Bitcoin Tumbling
Post by: fatoldsun on February 25, 2013, 07:43 am
rapala24, the idea of tumbling is that you don't have a line of transactions anymore.

Here, there's still a line of transactions, no matter how many proxies, Tor, w/e you use: buying -> online wallet #1 -> online wallet #2 -> SR

But if you use a mixer, it's as though your coins arrive in one wallet, and then another fresh wallet pays out your coins. There's no transaction between the two wallets. Later, the coins you deposited in the first wallet get used for somebody else's anonymous transaction.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Tumbling
Post by: bho4ever on February 25, 2013, 09:22 pm
Any of these will work fine.

bitinstant (or other exchange) > Easywallet > BitcoinFog > SR Account
bitinstant (or other exchange) > Blockchain > instawallet > instawallet - SR Account
bitinstant (or other exchange) > Blockchain > instawallet > instawallet > bitcoin fog > SR Account