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Discussion => Off topic => Topic started by: MikeMurdock on March 01, 2012, 07:44 pm

Title: Mescaline-LSD-Psilocin Equivalency
Post by: MikeMurdock on March 01, 2012, 07:44 pm
Some people were discussing this topic in the product requests section, and I thought it might be interesting to move it here and get some more opinions. 

The prevailing opinion seems to be that mescaline, LSD, and psilocin mushrooms all have different effects, but it was demonstrated (though long ago in 1959, when these substances were legal) that the subjective affects of all three are quite similar and an equivalency rate for all three substances was established.

It seems likely that different experiences between mescaline, LSD, and psilocin/psilocybin mushrooms are likely caused by inequivalent dosages.  According to Isbell*, 1mcg of LSD=45mcg of psilocin, 1mcg of psilocin=66mcg of mescaline, and 1mcg LSD=2,970mcg mescaline.  Obviously, drugs manifest different effects at different dosages as well.  According to erowid, a common dose for LSD is 100mcg, 2g for psilocybin/psilocin mushrooms, and 250mg for pure mescaline.  If mushrooms are about 1.3% psychedelic compounds**, then 2g of mushrooms contains about 26,000mcg of pure psilocin/psilocybin.

Based on Isbell's numbers (and some math), this means that 2g of mushrooms is about 5.78 average doses of acid.  Furthermore, this means that 250 mg of pure mescaline is about 0.84 hits of acid.  So, the average dose of mushrooms is much stronger than the average dose for LSD and would likely produce much different effects.  In the same way, the average dosage for mesacaline is slightly lower than LSD, this could explain why people often cite mescaline as more relaxing or soothing, simply because their dosage isn't as potent.


*http://www.springerlink.com/content/j2401730q317054m/fulltext.pdf
**http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_info9.shtml
Title: Re: Mescaline-LSD-Psilocin Equivalency
Post by: Horizons on March 01, 2012, 08:37 pm
It might seem that LSD, mescaline, psilocin and psilocybin (and ibogaine, psilacetin, n,n-DMT, 5-MeO-DALT, the 2c family and several other substances) could be considered equivalent to a certain extent, since they all act on the same neuroreceptors. The difference, as you said, would be one of potency over mass.

However, this is false and in direct contradiction with the available evidence. Chemical neuroreceptors aren't binary switches that can only be set to either "stimulated " or "unstimulated" - they can be stimulated in different ways and with different intensities - and the body isn't a completely compartmentalized collective of organs - the same molecule will affect several parts of your body simultaneously.

Since all serotonergic psychedelics are 5-HT2A receptor agonists, it's to be expected that their effects be very similar - an assumption that people's experience validates. But since they are very different molecules that follow different metabolic routes, have different half-lives inside the human body and don't necessarily have the same effects on the rest of the human metabolism besides the 5-HT2A receptors (indeed they don't: the list of side-effects and their intensities is very different for each drug, even though there are a few recurring elements, like nausea, bruxism and tachycardia), assuming that their effects are in any way equivalent is an extremely naive position that can only be sustained by maintaining an overly simplistic view of the human body and ignoring the subtleties of its functioning. The importance of these small differences becomes even greater once you begin taking into account the nature of the psychological effects of these drugs, which put the mind in a state that is extremely sensitive to stimuli - therefore even differences in the body's feeling and functioning that would normally go unnoticed can have a drastic effect on how the consciousness perceives the trip.
Title: Re: Mescaline-LSD-Psilocin Equivalency
Post by: microRNA on March 02, 2012, 03:25 am
+1   Nice answer again horizons

No one who has actually ingested "equivalent dosages" of these three molecules would claim they were subjectively the same experience.

Especially in regard to mescaline given its activity on the adrenergic and dopaminergic systems due to its completely different structural phenethylamine backbone. Even for the purely 5-ht2a agonists though, each has its own personality and they are clearly distinct with some experience.
Title: Re: Mescaline-LSD-Psilocin Equivalency
Post by: Horizons on March 02, 2012, 10:55 am
Especially in regard to mescaline given its activity on the adrenergic and dopaminergic systems due to its completely different structural phenethylamine backbone.

I didn't know that mescaline had those effects. Thanks for teaching us! 8)
Title: Re: Mescaline-LSD-Psilocin Equivalency
Post by: MikeMurdock on March 02, 2012, 08:03 pm
Thanks for the info guys!  I am a big fan of the science of drugs, so I love learning new things.  It sucks that so much LSD human research is outdated because of the illegality of the drug.  It seems likely that Isbell's research falls into this category. 

If they they are all different, then that just means I have to try them all!   :)
Title: Re: Mescaline-LSD-Psilocin Equivalency
Post by: Horizons on March 03, 2012, 03:45 pm
If they they are all different, then that just means I have to try them all!   :)

Now here's a true psychonaut!
Title: Re: Mescaline-LSD-Psilocin Equivalency
Post by: microRNA on March 03, 2012, 04:30 pm
Mescaline is actually really different too because it is one of the ones thats more active at the 5ht2c receptor than 5ht2aR   

I dont know to what extent the DA and NE systems are really activated, but I would certainly say it plays a very subtle role in the experience.