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Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 05:16 am

Title: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 05:16 am
Is it as simple as that?
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: g00se on May 02, 2013, 06:14 am
As a fan of Peter Kropotkin, I think not.

Mutual aid is far more important the way I see it.
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 06:21 am
Absolutely not.

Mutual aid is far more important than survival of the fittest in terms of survival and progress.


But!!!

Mutually aiding one another is survival of the fittest!  Specifically you aide the ones who you know have a chance of survival.  You don't give a man a heart transplant if he is dying from brain cancer!
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: g00se on May 02, 2013, 07:00 am
If you see survival of the fittest in terms of race and not individuals, then sure.

But then, what sense does it make at all? I mean, the expression is too general when you simply say fittest.
You might call it survival of the greatest. It's a meaningless phrase the way I see it, because it is so general it can mean basically anything - and thus there is nothing to debate.

How would you define fittest? Those who can adapt fastest? What if a meteor hit the planet and kills everything above 3 kg, does that mean mankind is less adaptive, less 'fit' than those who are less than 3 kg?
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: prophetjack on May 02, 2013, 07:18 am
I usually hate T.V. but, I watched 'The Walking dead' and it gave me some good lessons on this subject. The governor, even with all his resources and obvious upper hand wasn't able to realistically penetrate Rick's defenses at the prison. The gov' said, "In this world, you kill, or you die. Or you die, then you kill." Or something to that effect. I believe it is true that the idea of liberty has greatly improved life for every individual, but there are always people who know this basic rule of the jungle still is in place. It must be taught to the people trained to give their life for their country. Psychology and uniforms are put in place so you kill these people and not the other ones. Why? The gov. murdered his entire crew for being green... In a situation of resource scarceness, in this case courage in the final ep. the boss decides to radically change his plan of the idea of individual's rights in his group. Taking most but not all of his groups lives was a decision to survive and be the fittest. Even Rick's son understands as he guns down another surrendering child. I read today on reddit that when aging mother kittens become sick from nursing they kill their young. When the resources of earth become depleted, which they are, have faith that the powers that be will not continue to pay for everyone to live. In my opinion depopulation is already happening. There are a lot more people now but the general science stays the same I guess.  I like this sub forum!!!
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 07:25 am
If you see survival of the fittest in terms of race and not individuals, then sure.

But then, what sense does it make at all? I mean, the expression is too general when you simply say fittest.
You might call it survival of the greatest. It's a meaningless phrase the way I see it, because it is so general it can mean basically anything - and thus there is nothing to debate.

How would you define fittest? Those who can adapt fastest? What if a meteor hit the planet and kills everything above 3 kg, does that mean mankind is less adaptive, less 'fit' than those who are less than 3 kg?

Whats wrong with being general?  It is a thing!  Everything in my opinion is good.  Everything has its time and its place.  Sometimes it is good to be general, most times it is not.

Fittest are those who survive!  Its as simple as that.  It does not mean the ones currently living.  Its the ones who will survive and keep living.  I sincerely hope you understand this concept the way I am describing it.

As far as meaningless phrases I say to that that everything is meaningless!  Until someone/something ascribes meaning to it!
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 07:28 am
I usually hate T.V. but, I watched 'The Walking dead' and it gave me some good lessons on this subject. The governor, even with all his resources and obvious upper hand wasn't able to realistically penetrate Rick's defenses at the prison. The gov' said, "In this world, you kill, or you die. Or you die, then you kill." Or something to that effect. I believe it is true that the idea of liberty has greatly improved life for every individual, but there are always people who know this basic rule of the jungle still is in place. It must be taught to the people trained to give their life for their country. Psychology and uniforms are put in place so you kill these people and not the other ones. Why? The gov. murdered his entire crew for being green... In a situation of resource scarceness, in this case courage in the final ep. the boss decides to radically change his plan of the idea of individual's rights in his group. Taking most but not all of his groups lives was a decision to survive and be the fittest. Even Rick's son understands as he guns down another surrendering child. I read today on reddit that when aging mother kittens become sick from nursing they kill their young. When the resources of earth become depleted, which they are, have faith that the powers that be will not continue to pay for everyone to live. In my opinion depopulation is already happening. There are a lot more people now but the general science stays the same I guess.  I like this sub forum!!!

lol I had to stop reading you're post because I just started watching the show.  I only made it 5 mins into the first season and I already see why everyone loves this show.  I can tell where you are going  in your post as well. 
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: Torocracy on May 02, 2013, 08:09 am
It's not as simple as that OP. There's a lot to be said about the system of central banking and cartels etc where the people are expropriated and taught to love it.

In true capitalism, the fittest are rewarded the most, but wage rates are high enough that everyone can survive.

Now, I escaped the U.S.about a decade ago and enjoy a higher standard of living for doing so while living on a much smaller income. I've heard that things are getting pretty rough over there. The good news is that through knowledge and a philosophy of self reliance a person can take advantage of the situation to come out on top - as I assume the SR community is doing.

We live in a unique time period. We are on the verge of the collapse of a tyrannical and immoral system.
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: g00se on May 02, 2013, 08:58 am
I do not believe in good or bad.

Survival of those who survive would be a more fitting term then. I believe in determinism and as such, chance has no place in my world-view. To quote Stephen Hawkings; "The initial configuration of the universe may have been chosen by God, or it may itself have been determined by the laws of science. In either case, it would seem that everything in the universe would then be determined by evolution according to the laws of science, so it is difficult to see how we can be masters of our fate."

Thus I would have to phrase it like this; Survival of those with an initial configuration of coincidences which last longest. If we consider it as our matter surviving and not our life (consciousness), we are immortal star dust. Might sound a bit far-fetched, but that's how I see it.
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: Sistrurus on May 02, 2013, 09:09 am
I do not believe in good or bad.

Survival of those who survive would be a more fitting term then. I believe in determinism and as such, chance has no place in my world-view. To quote Stephen Hawkings; "The initial configuration of the universe may have been chosen by God, or it may itself have been determined by the laws of science. In either case, it would seem that everything in the universe would then be determined by evolution according to the laws of science, so it is difficult to see how we can be masters of our fate."

Thus I would have to phrase it like this; Survival of those with an initial configuration of coincidences which last longest. If we consider it as our matter surviving and not our life (consciousness), we are immortal star dust. Might sound a bit far-fetched, but that's how I see it.
If someone raped, tortured and murdered your child; you would not think of this person as evil or bad since everything, according to you, is predetermined?
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: g00se on May 02, 2013, 09:26 am
Quote
If someone raped, tortured and murdered your child; you would not think of this person as evil or bad since everything, according to you, is predetermined?

No, I do have feelings; but that does not make it evil. Hate is not evil, love is not good. My configuration would react and set person would soon be dead. That's not evil, that's egoism.

"Man can indeed do what he wants to do, but he cannot will what he wants to will"
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 01:32 pm
It's not as simple as that OP. There's a lot to be said about the system of central banking and cartels etc where the people are expropriated and taught to love it.

In true capitalism, the fittest are rewarded the most, but wage rates are high enough that everyone can survive.

Now, I escaped the U.S.about a decade ago and enjoy a higher standard of living for doing so while living on a much smaller income. I've heard that things are getting pretty rough over there. The good news is that through knowledge and a philosophy of self reliance a person can take advantage of the situation to come out on top - as I assume the SR community is doing.

We live in a unique time period. We are on the verge of the collapse of a tyrannical and immoral system.


This just sounds to me like you are proving my point!

You became stronger mentally.  More fit mentally when you became aware of the BS that banks can pull off, what was going on in your world.  You subsequently made yourself better.  Is this not evolution in its current form?
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 01:37 pm
Quote
If someone raped, tortured and murdered your child; you would not think of this person as evil or bad since everything, according to you, is predetermined?

No, I do have feelings; but that does not make it evil. Hate is not evil, love is not good. My configuration would react and set person would soon be dead. That's not evil, that's egoism.

"Man can indeed do what he wants to do, but he cannot will what he wants to will"

If someone was to do that to my child, I would be to blame!  Where was I.  This is my child, why was I not protecting her?  The only evil I see there is the lack of knowledge!

Example:  It sounds fucked up, but.  I would reward the man intelligent enough to be able to get to my family!  This man is better than me. 

I do not blame others for what happens in my world.

P.S.  I will what I want to will all the time!  Interested in knowing what you think of this statement!
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: g00se on May 02, 2013, 01:54 pm
Quote
If someone was to do that to my child, I would be to blame!  Where was I.  This is my child, why was I not protecting her?  The only evil I see there is the lack of knowledge!

Example:  It sounds fucked up, but.  I would reward the man intelligent enough to be able to get to my family!  This man is better than me.

I do not blame others for what happens in my world.

P.S.  I will what I want to will all the time!  Interested in knowing what you think of this statement!

Fine, prove your point. Become a heroin-addict and then - at your will - decide not to be a heroin-addict.

Or to put it in more common terms; make yourself like washing the house.
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 02:06 pm
Quote
If someone was to do that to my child, I would be to blame!  Where was I.  This is my child, why was I not protecting her?  The only evil I see there is the lack of knowledge!

Example:  It sounds fucked up, but.  I would reward the man intelligent enough to be able to get to my family!  This man is better than me.

I do not blame others for what happens in my world.

P.S.  I will what I want to will all the time!  Interested in knowing what you think of this statement!

Fine, prove your point. Become a heroin-addict and then - at your will - decide not to be a heroin-addict.

Or to put it in more common terms; make yourself like washing the house.


I already did these things goose.  I do not talk about things I do not know!

I control myself to the utmost, that has always been my number one goal!  I experiment daily.  I have tried to be addicted to cigarettes, one of the so called most addictive things out there.  That didn't work!  but that's all I needed.  I put 2 and 2 together.  If I can't get addicted to cigs, I can't get addicted to anything, because the only one/thing that controls me is me!  This is no bs, this is how I feel every second of my life.  In control.  I have been everywhere, tried everything.  I have no need to lie.  Have you ever had a wall in your mind just kicked the fuck in!  Something that you thought was real turning out to not be real.  It's an amazing feeling if you embrace it.  I have dedicated my life to sharing this feeling!

Its funny however how you talk of free will.  It's an interesting concept that I can talk about forever!.  It's just a word however.  It means what we make it mean!  Even at this point in my life where I feel I have the most control, it is still as if I have none.  Its remarkable when you accept this reality.  Is it just my reality.  Possible.  Is it actual reality?  Also possible.  Everything is possible!  If you can think it, it exist!
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 02:09 pm
P.S.  I use to hate doing laundry.  Now I love it.  I have rewired my own brain!  Very possible to do!

I love everything.  Therefore I would love to wash my house.  I would love to come and wash your house.  Because I attribute nothing negative towards doing these task!
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: g00se on May 02, 2013, 02:18 pm
I think you misunderstand.

I'm not saying man is without will, I'm saying man cannot control his will - initially. That means you are born to this world - determined by your heritage - you continue through this world controlled by how this heritage react to its environment. You can never change the initial reaction, and therefore also all following reactions- you never have control, you only evolve.
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 02:35 pm
I think you misunderstand.

I'm not saying man is without will, I'm saying man cannot control his will - initially. That means you are born to this world - determined by your heritage - you continue through this world controlled by how this heritage react to its environment. You can never change the initial reaction, and therefore also all following reactions- you never have control, you only evolve.

I believe you are misunderstanding as well.  Everything you just posted is what I have already posted!  This is what I am going through currently.  Understanding who I am.  The more I understand who I am, the more I over-stand that I am not just one person, but a combination of every person I have ever been or even met.  It's as if I absorb their mojo or whatever you want to call it.  It's actually more like I am or can be anyone that I want to be. 

I would agree almost completely with the your last sentence.  Like I said, it's like I have control but I don't.  I have traced countless memories in my mind, experiences, everything, and they all lead to one thing.  All the signs are different but essentially the same.  I cannot be anything but what I am!  It's mind blowing!

But the fact that I now know what has created me, I now have the power to create myself however I want.  I can do this by absorbing things that will change how I think, therefore change who I am!  I think I can do this.  This is not something I know.  I don't know it because I have never tried to change myself completely.  I love who I am and only wish to remain this way until "I" want to change it.  However it comes down to semantics, and the level that I think that I am currently at.  Who is this I?  I say I but do I know, really know, what/who I am referring too!

I believe in evolution and I believe in science.  I am putting the two together as they should be.  I evolve everyday, I know this, I am smarter every second I am alive.  I feel it.  When I feel it, I test it, and I get and answer.  Then I continually repeat the process.  It's as simple as that!
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 02:40 pm
P.S.  Misunderstandings are the root of all evil.  In my opinion.  All problems in the world are due to a lack of proper communication.  I challenge anyone to prove me wrong on this statement!
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: g00se on May 02, 2013, 02:44 pm
Well, I like the attitude!  8)
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: kittenfluff on May 02, 2013, 02:46 pm
If you see survival of the fittest in terms of race and not individuals, then sure.

But then, what sense does it make at all? I mean, the expression is too general when you simply say fittest.
You might call it survival of the greatest. It's a meaningless phrase the way I see it, because it is so general it can mean basically anything - and thus there is nothing to debate.

How would you define fittest? Those who can adapt fastest? What if a meteor hit the planet and kills everything above 3 kg, does that mean mankind is less adaptive, less 'fit' than those who are less than 3 kg?

I do not think the OP (nor many who have joined in) understands what it means. 'Survival of the fittest' means 'Survival of the species most suited to their environment and their evolutionary niche' not 'Survival of the healthiest/strongest/most intelligent'. Under that definition co-operation can be seen as a trait that makes a species 'fittest', as in ant or bee colonies. 'Survival of the fittest' does not mean Randian individualism... though I do believe Ayn Rand was influenced by a flawed interpretation of evolutionary theory. I think where a lot of people go wrong is confusing personal/individual success with success as a species - very ego-centric and very human. We are such solipsist...
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 02:47 pm
And I love your attitude.  Already +1'd ya!
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 02:49 pm
Beautiful kitten, you are mistaken at this moment.  You are saying what I have already said!  Survival of the fittest refers to those who have survived, not what ever definition you or whoever else wants to put on it.  No disrespect!
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: g00se on May 02, 2013, 03:04 pm
If you see survival of the fittest in terms of race and not individuals, then sure.

But then, what sense does it make at all? I mean, the expression is too general when you simply say fittest.
You might call it survival of the greatest. It's a meaningless phrase the way I see it, because it is so general it can mean basically anything - and thus there is nothing to debate.

How would you define fittest? Those who can adapt fastest? What if a meteor hit the planet and kills everything above 3 kg, does that mean mankind is less adaptive, less 'fit' than those who are less than 3 kg?

I do not think the OP (nor many who have joined in) understands what it means. 'Survival of the fittest' means 'Survival of the species most suited to their environment and their evolutionary niche' not 'Survival of the healthiest/strongest/most intelligent'. Under that definition co-operation can be seen as a trait that makes a species 'fittest', as in ant or bee colonies. 'Survival of the fittest' does not mean Randian individualism... though I do believe Ayn Rand was influenced by a flawed interpretation of evolutionary theory. I think where a lot of people go wrong is confusing personal/individual success with success as a species - very ego-centric and very human. We are such solipsist...

That's true. But I think solipsism is a healthy trait in order to have an eagerness to search... To find answers. Or maybe that's just my dark side  :-X
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: kittenfluff on May 02, 2013, 03:15 pm
Beautiful kitten, you are mistaken at this moment.  You are saying what I have already said!  Survival of the fittest refers to those who have survived, not what ever definition you or whoever else wants to put on it.  No disrespect!

None taken. But while you may understand what you mean, you are dead wrong to conflate the concept 'fittest' and 'fit', as in 'survival of the fittest', with 'fittest' and 'fit' in the sense of 'healthy' or 'strong'. In the evolutionary sense 'fittest' and 'fit' mean 'that which is the best fit', like a round peg in a round hole. In this sense all of us on here are very much not the 'fittest' as we are all outcasts from the larger society. None of us 'fit' and are more like species that are fighting to occupy a new evolutionary niche. Also, it pertains to species/groups, not individuals, and you are talking almost exclusively about yourself as an individual. You may well be correct in everything you mean/say about yourself, but none of it has anything to do with 'survival of the fittest' as an evolutionary concept.... Please fell free to carry on being wrong as if what I'm saying actually agrees with what you've just said, but it will continue to be wrong none-the-less...

g00se - yes, solipsism is a healthy trait and I wouldn't be without it. But I do think some of the most profound psychedelic experiences are where  all solipsisms are torn away, where the mind sits encompassing the infinite as a naked id without ego, basking in the 'white-light' and feeling at one with all..... it's nice to visit, but you can't live there. As Robert Anton Wilson says, you become a 'bliss-ninny'!  ::)
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: g00se on May 02, 2013, 03:28 pm
g00se - yes, solipsism is a healthy trait and I wouldn't be without it. But I do think some of the most profound psychedelic experiences are where  all solipsisms are torn away, where the mind sits encompassing the infinite as a naked id without ego, basking in the 'white-light' and feeling at one with all..... it's nice to visit, but you can't live there. As Robert Anton Wilson says, you become a 'bliss-ninny'!  ::)

I'm not sure. I haven't experienced enough of it. I'm going for DMT as it's short-lived and clear. Tried LSD and 'Shrooms (Norwegian Psilocybe Semilanceata), but I only get beautiful colors, I only hallucinate when I mix with Cannabis - and that can turn real freaky (I'm pretty sure what I experience is a psychosis). You can see why I would want a short-lived psychedelic, I don't want to mess with larger doses of LSD and risk something super bad.
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 03:36 pm
Beautiful kitten, you are mistaken at this moment.  You are saying what I have already said!  Survival of the fittest refers to those who have survived, not what ever definition you or whoever else wants to put on it.  No disrespect!

None taken. But while you may understand what you mean, you are dead wrong to conflate the concept 'fittest' and 'fit', as in 'survival of the fittest', with 'fittest' and 'fit' in the sense of 'healthy' or 'strong'. In the evolutionary sense 'fittest' and 'fit' mean 'that which is the best fit', like a round peg in a round hole. In this sense all of us on here are very much not the 'fittest' as we are all outcasts from the larger society. None of us 'fit' and are more like species that are fighting to occupy a new evolutionary niche. Also, it pertains to species/groups, not individuals, and you are talking almost exclusively about yourself as an individual. You may well be correct in everything you mean/say about yourself, but none of it has anything to do with 'survival of the fittest' as an evolutionary concept.... Please fell free to carry on being wrong as if what I'm saying actually agrees with what you've just said, but it will continue to be wrong none-the-less...

g00se - yes, solipsism is a healthy trait and I wouldn't be without it. But I do think some of the most profound psychedelic experiences are where  all solipsisms are torn away, where the mind sits encompassing the infinite as a naked id without ego, basking in the 'white-light' and feeling at one with all..... it's nice to visit, but you can't live there. As Robert Anton Wilson says, you become a 'bliss-ninny'!  ::)

You're not getting it.  These words you keep throwing around mean nothing to me.  They mean something to you!
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: kittenfluff on May 02, 2013, 03:40 pm
g00se - yes, solipsism is a healthy trait and I wouldn't be without it. But I do think some of the most profound psychedelic experiences are where  all solipsisms are torn away, where the mind sits encompassing the infinite as a naked id without ego, basking in the 'white-light' and feeling at one with all..... it's nice to visit, but you can't live there. As Robert Anton Wilson says, you become a 'bliss-ninny'!  ::)

I'm not sure. I haven't experienced enough of it. I'm going for DMT as it's short-lived and clear. Tried LSD and 'Shrooms (Norwegian Psilocybe Semilanceata), but I only get beautiful colors, I only hallucinate when I mix with Cannabis - and that can turn real freaky (I'm pretty sure what I experience is a psychosis). You can see why I would want a short-lived psychedelic, I don't want to mess with larger doses of LSD and risk something super bad.

Not tried DMT yet (it's my plan for the summer), but I would try larger doses of LSD (300ug and up) if I was you. Leary tried DMT, even injected it, and started off with psilocybin, but always said LSD was best. I never 'got' it until I accidentally did a large dose (usual number of blotter tabs, but much stronger blotter than I was used to), probably around +400ug, and actually experienced the things he documented in 'The Psychedelic Experience: A Manual Based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead'. It was a stunning and life-changing experience. But if you do you have to be ready/willing to let go of ego - it's fighting against that that will give you a bad experience...
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 02, 2013, 03:45 pm
Beautiful kitten, when does the game stop?  Does it Stop.  Who are the players?  What are the rules?
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: bestalignment on May 03, 2013, 12:43 am
Perfect thought does exist. Loving forever I type this to you'll because I love you some and type this for myself because I love myself completly.
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: kittenfluff on May 03, 2013, 09:59 am
Beautiful kitten, when does the game stop?  Does it Stop.  Who are the players?  What are the rules?

Where were you before you were born? Where do you go when you die? What is the point of asking questions like this?

Quote
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
- Shakespere

Quote
The statement is pointless
The finger is speechless
-RD Laing
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: pkizenko98 on May 03, 2013, 02:58 pm
^ Exactly
Title: Re: Survival of the Fittest!
Post by: jundullahi on May 11, 2013, 10:32 pm
It all dependents on what you believe. And what you believe is based on what you know or think is true. And what you believe to be true is based on the evidence you have to support your point. Then you might be wrong and misunderstood the fact. If so how open would you be to the possibility that you are wrong.
The are you asking the right question. And are you willing to accept the answer even if the go against you desire.